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[Fuu]

What on earth is a "Pinball Wizard"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRR-WlLVj74

edit: beaten by seconds, damn you kswiston. :lol

 

[Mael]

Many of the pre 1990 Amiga and ST games that were most exciting were American. Many of the iconic European games came later. These platforms didn't keep up with PC hardware and 16 bit consoles might eventually have had good games but in 1989 the Amiga and ST were very aspirational systems. And, as you say, in Europe Amiga did have a longer life span and had a great mix of more complex PC style games and console style games and performed mostly pretty well at those tasks.

Ah well I guess my timeline for the amiga and all is not bulletproof :lol

 

[830920]

Nice read, was too young at the time to give a fuck about any of that. A game was a game and any platform with games on it was a good platform.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Good find, Coolio!


And now, I present you the year 1989:



So good.

Read the rest, there are other interesting posts, including very reasonable ones. The more things change, the more they stay the same indeed.

Cries of kiddy, casual, gimmicky and for the soccer mums have been going on that long, huh? I have but one thing to say to that:

 

[Princess Skittles]

Yeah, except that those American "hardcore" games mentioned in the article were not designed so much to be "hardcore" (whatever that means), but they were designed to simply absorb as many quarters as possible in as little time as possible. They were made to make money, not create a challenge for the player.

 

[Mael]

Yeah, except that those American "hardcore" games mentioned in the article were not designed so much to be "hardcore" (whatever that means), but they were designed to simply absorb as many quarters as possible in as little time as possible. They were made to make money, not create a challenge for the player.

And what was the best way to take the quarters of theses people?
That's right, providing a challenge!
But much more importantly providing a difficulty curve that would make people coming back

 

[RockmanWhore]

Nintendo : casual gaming since 1983

 

[Princess Skittles]

But much more importantly providing a difficulty curve that would make people coming back

But the Japanese games mentioned and so childishly derided in the article are the ones that better did this.

 

[Mael]

But the Japanese games mentioned and so childishly derided in the article are the ones that better did this.

Well yeah, they knew how to make arcade games all right, if you make your game piss easy it'll be finished and considered done for, meaning it'll be a dead weight for the guy handling the machine.
I mean there's a reason they were harder than the piss they pass as challenge now.
They also were probably way less accessible which is another reason why most fighting games would die a horrible death in the arcades if they were alive.

It's like watching the design of a Nintendo game, they make it look so easy that you wonder why nobody manage to do as well as them.

 

[KevinCow]

Shit really is cyclical, huh?

 

[j^aws]

Yeah, except that those American "hardcore" games mentioned in the article were not designed so much to be "hardcore" (whatever that means), but they were designed to simply absorb as many quarters as possible in as little time as possible. They were made to make money, not create a challenge for the player.

Robotron, Stargate and Defender were designed just as well as their modern equivalents in Japanese Arcades today - these games would be the Bullet-hell genre, e.g. CAVE games.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Shit really is cyclical, huh?

Cyclical would imply this shit ever goes dormant.

 

[Mael]

Robotron, Stargate and Defender were designed just as well as their modern equivalents in Japanese Arcades today - these games would be the Bullet-hell genre, e.g. CAVE games.

Except that the CAVE games have less competition and well they're clearly NOT accessible, it would fail in most arcades.

Cyclical would imply this shit ever goes dormant.

Well you would say there's a cycle :
shit get said => even more shit.....

 

[Megadragon15]

I miss Williams Electronics games.

 

[j^aws]

Except that the CAVE games have less competition and well they're clearly NOT accessible, it would fail in most arcades.

I'm referring to design, not popularity nor making money. Coin-op games are designed to make money. Princess Skittles said: "They were made to make money, not create a challenge for the player." - this is not true; they still create a challenge, and are designed well. Just because they munch quarters, doesn't mean they are badly designed as a game.

 

[Rollo Lawson]

id be interested to hear what a true hardcore gamer from that time thinks about today's games...

 

[Gravijah]

id be interested to hear what a true hardcore gamer from that time thinks about today's games...

The same thing most pre-PS1 gamers think of anything post-PS1.

 

[Princess Skittles]

Robotron, Stargate and Defender were designed just as well as their modern equivalents in Japanese Arcades today - these games would be the Bullet-hell genre, e.g. CAVE games.

Eh, no, not really.

 

[Cowie]

The parallels from those articles to today are damn uncanny. Seeing fanboys bein fanboys isn't shocking, but to see that it's basically the same arguments 27 years later.. Good God, man. Great reads, Thanks folks!

 

[Baron]

Nice excerpt in the OP.

Reminds me, Microsoft needs to add pinball machines to their Game Room.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Robotron and Defender are creme-de-la-creme games, so I hope you're disagreeing with the part about being like CAVE shooters, and not with the part about them being well-designed, Princess.

 

[Mael]

I'm referring to design, not popularity nor making money. Coin-op games are designed to make money. Princess Skittles said: "They were made to make money, not create a challenge for the player." - this is not true; they still create a challenge, and are designed well. Just because they munch quarters, doesn't mean they are badly designed as a game.

You misunderstoud what I said, I'm saying that the quarter munchers were highly efficient back in the day because it was that or die, CAVE games on the other hands have no market pressure that forced the games to be entertaining.
In the end, the only games that could have survived as coin op games this gen would probably be the wiisports games, nsmbw and that's about it.
If you ask me the fact that a game is designed as a quarter muncher is a BONUS, because that means that the designer is forced to make a compelling experience throughout all the game and dismiss the cumbersome cinematics that plagues my games since the whole cd fad

 

[Gravijah]

Robotron and Defender are creme-de-la-creme games, so I hope you're disagreeing with the part about being like CAVE shooters, and not with the part about them being well-designed, Princess.

Robotron really doesn't get enough love.

 

[Mael]

Robotron really doesn't get enough love.

Well to be fair, for me robotron is mostly associated with the uber crap ports on psX and n64....
Yes I missed the game in the arcade, so what?

 

[Gravijah]

Well to be fair, for me robotron is mostly associated with the uber crap ports on psX and n64....
Yes I missed the game in the arcade, so what?

Hey, I liked the PS1 version!

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Well to be fair, for me robotron is mostly associated with the uber crap ports on psX and n64....
Yes I missed the game in the arcade, so what?

If there were no Robotron, there would be no twin-stick shooters.

Holy god the present would suck.

 

[Mael]

Hey, I liked the PS1 version!

Well the n64 was so blurry I was rendered blind in 2min and the psX was really unplayable since I actually didn't know what the hell I was doing....
The good ol' time of trying games in the shops, I doubt I could pull now some of the stunts I did back then :lol

Speaking of crap ps1 game...I advise people to find the very first Men In Black that plays like a Resident Evil game, it's the most broken hillarious piece of shit I've ever played.
Seriously I think not even Sonic 06 compares in shittiness.

If there were no Robotron, there would be no twin-stick shooters.

Holy god the present would suck.

Well I too would be sad without Geometry Wars....
Now if we're talking fpses....nothing of value would have been lost.

 

[Johann]

But the Japanese games mentioned and so childishly derided in the article are the ones that better did this.

Wait until you read how EA and a few other companies used outright racism to lobby against Japanese videogame companies, most notably Nintendo, entering their markets.

 

[Tain]

In the end, the only games that could have survived as coin op games this gen would probably be the wiisports games, nsmbw and that's about it.

I'm kinda confused. Are you somehow actually ignoring Japanese arcades while talking about Cave?

 

[Mael]

I'm kinda confused. Are you somehow actually ignoring Japan while talking about Cave?

I thought it was quite evident that I was NOT talking of the situation in Japan, since you know the arcades are not dead there yet.
Heck when I'm talking about survive, I'm not saying pull in respectable numbers like they can now, I'm speaking phenomenon softwares like virtua fighters, Daytona, donkey Kong, Pacman even Pong.
Even then Cave's games really pales in comparison :-/

 

[Kilrogg]

Wait until you read how EA and a few other companies used outright racism to lobby against Japanese videogame companies, most notably Nintendo, entering their markets.

Have you got any links by any chance?

 

[Mael]

Have you got any links by any chance?

There's still the lawsuit of Atari against Nintendo though :lol

 

[Princess Skittles]

Robotron and Defender are creme-de-la-creme games, so I hope you're disagreeing with the part about being like CAVE shooters, and not with the part about them being well-designed, Princess.

Oh, I love both of those games (Robotron much more than Defender though), but they ARE a product of their time. Most modern shmups, or Cave games, which I have some experience with, have a much more natural learning curve to them. I feel their challenge is designed with FAR less concern for getting another quarter from you than early Williams arcade games were.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Yeah, except that those American "hardcore" games mentioned in the article were not designed so much to be "hardcore" (whatever that means), but they were designed to simply absorb as many quarters as possible in as little time as possible. They were made to make money, not create a challenge for the player.

You mean like how modern "hardcore" games are designed to absorb extra money out of wallets with HD Tax, DLC schemes, and pay-to-not-hear advertisements over voice com?

*zing!*

Spoiler

I kid, I kid.

... or do I?

 

[j^aws]

Oh, I love both of those games (Robotron much more than Defender though), but they ARE a product of their time. Most modern shmups, or Cave games, which I have some experience with, have a much more natural learning curve to them. I feel their challenge is designed with FAR less concern for getting another quarter from you than early Williams arcade games were.

I can agree with the "much more" natural learning curve with modern Cave games; they are designed with 'more accessibility' in mind. These games can be played with scoring and survival being pretty much independent. A game like Defender though, the scoring is tied to your survival - exploiting the scoring system means surviving longer...

You misunderstoud what I said, I'm saying that the quarter munchers were highly efficient back in the day because it was that or die, CAVE games on the other hands have no market pressure that forced the games to be entertaining.

You're saying "market pressure" forced old quarter-munchers to be entertaining and this doesn't apply to Cave games?

In the end, the only games that could have survived as coin op games this gen would probably be the wiisports games, nsmbw and that's about it.

Racers? - They're an Arcade-y genre... PGR 4 comes to mind.

If you ask me the fact that a game is designed as a quarter muncher is a BONUS, because that means that the designer is forced to make a compelling experience throughout all the game and dismiss the cumbersome cinematics that plagues my games since the whole cd fad

I can agree with this, but much like any game, on any platform, one can consider a game on its own merits - depending on its intentions.

 

[LakeEarth]

Apparently its a deaf, dumb and blind kid who sure plays an amazing pinball. I've also heard he has a really supple wrist.

Wow, that's amazing. How do you think he does it?

I'd love to go back in time and see how these hardcore guys do with N+.

 

[John]

You could even say...

"Same shit, different day."

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

id be interested to hear what a true hardcore gamer from that time thinks about today's games...

Well, there's two things you have to remember here.

The focus...that is, the purpose for playing a game...has changed since those days. Generally speaking, most popular video games these days are not actually very hard. The focus has drifted more towards trying to provide the gamer with an 'experience', not unlike that of a movie. Games in those days were only supposed to be played for a few minutes at a time at the most. Games were purposely difficult so that the Arcade machines would keep eating the player's quarters. This is a stark contrast to today where the games are bought in full by the player. Today, games are artificially lengthened to try to give the player the most bang for their hard-earned buck.

The second thing is, the definition of what a hardcore gamer is has changed as well. In 1983, a hardcore game was defined by how hard it was, and a 'hardcore gamer' was defined as a player who tended to gravitate towards those types of games, naturally. However the term these days tends to mean players who are more into playing the many different types of games that are currently available. Modern 'hardcore' gamers usually own 2 or 3 different consoles and try to buy and play to completion all of the most popular games. The difficulty of a game doesn't really matter to them, as most of them are into games for the 'experience' the game offers them. This is evident due to gaming's growing focus less on challenge, high-scores, or in some cases, even gameplay, and more on creating stories and providing the player with a more movie-like experience.

I would say that the hardcore gamers of 1983 are probably split on how they perceive today's games. I'm sure many of them have adjusted to the change in focus of gaming and enjoy it just like younger gamers do. However, there are also a lot of them who probably think today's gamers have it easy and think the games they play are for sissies.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Wow, that's amazing. How do you think he does it?

I'd love to go back in time and see how these hardcore guys do with N+.

Heh, I bet they'd fucking love it. I'm still a big fan of the old hard-as-balls arcade classics and N+ was fucking manna from heaven for me.

 

[GDGF]

Robotron really doesn't get enough love.

Robotron (and Berzerk...I gotta mention Berzerk) are two of my favorite arcade games ever. Love the fuck out of them.

 

[oracrest]

On the subject of choosing a video game.....my five cents....

Personally, I think the Nintendo is a piece of right wing garbage akin to the
IBM PC. Slow, out of date, but heavily marketed so that mindless dweenies will
think it's the hottest thing since Zelda had her first period. I have yet TO
SEE A SINGLE GAME ON THE THING SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER THAN STUFF I PLAYED ON MY
OLD ATARI 800 SEVEN YEARS AGO.....Yes, there are some nice games, but they do
not do anything extraordinary and in fact clearly show the glaring limitations
of the thing's inferior pre-VLSI hardware.

On the subject of the Sega Genesis and the Turbografix 16. At least these guys
are using hardware invented after the Apple II, give 'em credit! The graphics
in these games are NICE! I really can't give a decent opinion as to which is
better, they're both fantastic!

But now I get to stand on my soapbox and have some fun. Correct me if I am
wrong, but isn't the Atari 7800 superior hardware wise to the NES? I heard
thing could manipulate 64 BIG sprites at once. It was developed right when
the slump hit the videogame industry, and two fantastic and innovative games
Rescue at fractalus and Ballblazer NEVER got the recognition they deserved.
I have yet to see ANYTHING on the NES half as good as these wondrous
creations from Lucasfilm. All I ever see are variations on the horizontal/
vertical scrolling find the magic trinket and or blow it up while a host of
randomly drawn stick figures get in your way theme. I'd rather pay 25 cents
in an arcade and at least get decent graphics and sound.

This gets us to another topic. Anyone who believes the Gamebody superior to
the Lynx is a complete loony. However, I think there is a good chance the
Lynx will fail simply because the Gameboy is saturing the market. I hope this
does not happen because I do not see anyone else creating truly innovative
software for home video games. Even the Sega and NEC systems are only offering
souped up versions of the aforementioned theme...

The only really nifty games are being written for Amigas and ST's with sorry
adaptions made for befuddled PC users who gladly shuck out the bucks when they
see screenshots from the ST and Amiga versions (usually the Amiga version ),
and get the Nintendosized version of a formerly fantastic game. One could
probably write neat stuff for the Mac II, but who wants to pay $7000 for a
video game ? The saddest part about this tale is that the PC version by far
outshines the combined profits of Amiga and ST versions so now some programmers
are dropping the Amiga and ST and limiting their horizons simply for the bucks.

I'm writing what I hope is a truly innovative video game myself right now, I
am writing it on an Atari ST with plans for both Amiga and PC adaptations, but
the key word here IS adaptations. The Amiga version will certainly be a little
better with the nifty sound and blitter chip, but I will need to write the PC
adaptation to make the thing truly profitable and that will be by far the
hardest part. Anyone out there looking for games for the NEC or Genesis? This
game would be PERFECT! I already know the thing would crash and burn on an NES

In closing, this post rambled ALOT, but I have wanted to broadcast my views
on the NES monopoly and the general creative decline it has triggered for a
very long time...

That's some good reading right there.


It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
- Mark Twain

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

1989 was a very frustrating time if you had a hate-on for Nintendo.

 

[revolverjgw]

I figured Sega initialized the whole "Kiddie Nintendo" thing with their marketing during the 16-bit era, but it's amusing to see this pre-dates the NES :lol

 

[Boney]

I'm pretty sure, by volume, there's more sperm in Japanese games on average.

:lol

Spoiler

Eeeeewww

 

[Deku]

Good find, Coolio!


And now, I present you the year 1989:



So good.

Read the rest, there are other interesting posts, including very reasonable ones. The more things change, the more they stay the same indeed.

Here's the same guy's follow up. Ripped right of GAF indeed, or did GAF rip him off.
Oh my god. Reading BBS posts in 2010 from 1989 on a modern PC blows my mind.

>Do you then consider games like Ultima simple-minded?



Well, I played Ultimas I through III way back in High School..
Back then it was good, but now we have seen Sundog, Dungeon Master
and Bloodwych. The Ultima series is obsolete as is most of the
software on the Nintendo.


>I'll bite. What exactly do you call a good game????? Please be specific.
>The only real difference between the Nintendo and the Sega and NEC
>systems are the graphics. You can basically program the same game CONCEPT
>on any of the systems. To me that implies you like the Sega and NEC better
>because of the graphics. Isn't that a little simple minded?


My criteria for a good game is that it is either a reasonably new
idea such as Tetris, Rescue at Fractalus, Ballblazer, Sundog
or Starflight, or a superbly rendered improvement of an
already existing theme such as Falcon or Chessmaster 2000.


>useless. If you don't want or like to play NES games, that's your perfect
>don't dismiss millions of people who actually enjoy NES games
>as simple minded. That just shows your near-sightedness and ignorance.
>Think about it.


I don't dismiss them as simple minded, I dismiss them as ignorant. There
is a difference. These people don't realize what an obsolete piece
of crap the NES is. Just like there are hoards of people who still
believe PC clones are the pinnacle of Earth technology...

d.

 

[KevinCow]

This thread keeps blowing my mind. Seriously, if you just replace the system and game names, these things could look like posts on this board.

People are still going to be having these exact same arguments in 20 years, aren't they?

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

Looking at that article tells me that the industry shifts between casuals and hardcore periodically. We so called "hardcore" will get our day in the sun again shortly.

 

[Kilrogg]

It feels really weird reading through all this. Here we have a thread from 1993 about some kind of new product Nintendo is supposed to unveil : http://groups.google.com/group/rec....fc44adde9/c91ac849332a354c?q=Nintendo&lnk=ol&

Starts out slowly, then the conversation turns to video games and girlfriends. At some point on page 2 one guy says "My question is how many girls read r.g.video?" and then a tidal wave of girls and women tell him that they do read the boards and love video games, sometimes more than their boyfriends.

I'll have to dig through all that and find other gems to share with GAF .

 

[SYNTAX182]

Uncanny similarities, I was too young in the 80's to even notice things like that, I was just playing games 'cause they were fun in late 80's. The game always stays the same only the players change.

 

[PataHikari]

And thus we see that gamers have never changed.

At all.

This is fantastic.