They arent. They are avatars.
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#1reasonwhy - Exposing sexism in game industry
- Thread starter Gomu Gomu
- Start date
They arent. They are avatars.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
Well, there's a difference in well written and memorable. Mario & Luigi are known by millions of people, because they have simple yet recognizable outfits.
Mario is a Mascot, he stars some of the best games ever, doesn't make him a good character.
Link is an avatar, Zelda and other NPC's have a developped character (however little), Link has not.
Probably none.
I think you are right in calling us out on this tangent.
How sad is the state of affairs in terms of sexism really? Just take a look at the comment sections (even someone in this thread) or twitter responses in relation to this initiative: Really gets me down. There seems to be a big percentage of the population that just doesn't get it.
It's supposed to be about the former, anyway. There's some overlap, though.
Gamasutra said:
Cerebral Assassin
Member
In the video game industry, that actually is pretty remarkable.
But that would be the case for both genders as I don't see many male protagonists with beer guts.
Are you guys for real?
I hate how people resort to using as a class A example of a game with a great female protagonist, (Mirror's Edge is only "OK" imo) but Faith is EXTREMELY memorable.
Her design is just so... memorable. If I show a picture of faith to someone, there's a good chance they'll say, "hey isn't that the girl from mirrors edge?" After all of the publicity the game got, there's no way you could forget her.
An example of an unmemorable female character would be Bonnie MacFarlane from RDR. "Who" was the first word that popped into my mind when I saw her picture.
I hate how people resort to using as a class A example of a game with a great female protagonist, (Mirror's Edge is only "OK" imo) but Faith is EXTREMELY memorable.
Her design is just so... memorable. If I show a picture of faith to someone, there's a good chance they'll say, "hey isn't that the girl from mirrors edge?" After all of the publicity the game got, there's no way you could forget her.
An example of an unmemorable female character would be Bonnie MacFarlane from RDR. "Who" was the first word that popped into my mind when I saw her picture.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Patrick your comment is just as fucking sexist as the things you're trying to call out. Why does it have to most men? Why not just people. We're all people goddamn it, you shouldn't give a fuck what our chromosomes are.
http://tindeck.com/listen/byjt
cm osi
Member
mario and link aren't great characters, they just happen to be in some of the most important and successful videogames ever.
let's see if faith can survive 25 years
Meccanical
Member
That's an awfully shallow definition of memorable.
Who's the woman who presented SimCity at e3? Isn't she the new head of Maxis?
And of course, Roberta.
She's memorable because she's on the cover art of a game that was marketted. I'm sorry if your definition of memorable is incredibly shallow.
And of course, Roberta.
She's memorable because she's on the cover art of a game that was marketted. I'm sorry if your definition of memorable is incredibly shallow.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
How sadly expected.
It is...but Mirrors edge was mentioned as being written by a woman in the article, so naturally..
Such a good game. Can't wait for a sequel.
Actually some of the tweets in the thread talk about female characters in video games too. At least we are still getting titles these days with female lead roles like that AC game on vita.
*added to squint at list*
Bonnie is actually well written
Faith looks "good"
but faith is the better character according to you?.... yeah, I disagree.
(and i'll shut up now, sexism in the workplace is actually worth discussing)
Depressing, but expected I guess. :/
Great post. I had to stop reading the GB comments because of this stuff.
Except there isn't anything wrong with her being memorable to you, and not to others.
No, that's not what I was trying to say at all.
It's simple. Faith is very memorable. Bonnie isn't. it's as simple as that, no strings attached I swear.
Unless you're trying to say that Faith "isn't" memorable, and that Bonnie is. You are trying to do that... right?
I guess.
The blurb on giant bombing implies Faith is memorable for how the character was written though.
edit:
Maybe.
But did you watch/hear the Bombcasts she got "in trouble" for? She was annoying as fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. And it's not like Bombcast listeners are not critical of men on the podcast. For a while there, there were a group of people who wanted Patrick to disappear from the Bombcasts. Some people considered Alex annoying back when he was still on the Bombcasts occasionally.
Brad gets a lot of shit for being bad at playing games in quick looks and being annoyingly stubborn during GOTY discussions, Ryan for staying in menus all his goddamn life, etc.
Yeah, she got hated on, but that Bombcast appearance was teeeeerrible.
I would like to see her randomly show up on the podcast as a guest again one day.
Uh, no, Leigh. Men like you are also annoying as hell.
Well. Men who acted the way you acted on that Bombcast, anyway. I'm not going to make a sweeping pronouncement about you as a person, because alcohol is a hell of a drug.
Lucy Bradshaw is who I was thinking of. Jeff Green said she's insanely smart. I could listen to her talk all day.
I don't know what else you guys want me to say about this though. It sucks? Because that's stating the obvious. It absolutely does.
Fantastic interview with Lucy
I don't know what else you guys want me to say about this though. It sucks? Because that's stating the obvious. It absolutely does.
Fantastic interview with Lucy
i don't remember anything about faith but her design.
i remember quite a lot about Bonnie that goes beyond her looks (and that makes her more memorable than faith to me). I know which is a well written character and which is not.
I'm pretty sure her point is that if it had been a man in her place, he would not have been hounded about it the same way.
Your examples are absolutely inapplicable: Alexander appeared on the Bombcast a grand total of two times, for their E3 special episodes 2009 and 2010 (where plenty of other drunken and obnoxious people were present, and the GiantBomb crew themselves acted very disrespectful towards her).
People criticising someone that has a recurring role in something is different than certain posters continually harping on a short snippet that happened two years ago.
She's been continually (verbally) harassed for years now in a way that no male that appeared on a podcast drunkenly seems to have been.
I'm all for this but she lives in a fantasy world. You can't scream sexism for being annoying, obnoxious and loud. Doesn't work like that. In fact I think doing that is a disservice to the people who experience the actual sexism. It's like a man speeding then calling racism when he's pulled over.
She wouldn't have had she not been given a second chance and did it even worse.
People hounded the Cards Against Humanity for being a 'hipster douche' and were like 'YEAH JAFFE GET HIM' during his appearance. But her situation has nothing to do exclusively with the games industry. It's just her on her soapbox that she likes to get on every couple of months.
Can't believe 90% of the replies here are for Faith =P
Considering the amount of time that it happens to women and not to men .... yes
But this one might give you a better example of what she was talking about
Considering the amount of time that it happens to women and not to men .... yes
But this one might give you a better example of what she was talking about
hamauzu kaito
Member
REALLY??I don't understand how people don't think sexism is an issue. We just had an election!! An election in which 47% of the nation didn't think women could take care of their reproductive health, had to be reminded of the lilly ledbetter act, and women were viewed as a threat in future election cycles after being highlighted as a tool for winning. It's apparent!! I do agree with some of the comments though. attrition is not the way to do this. I think more groups of women and men should stand up and form studios where it is understood that sexist behavior is not tolerated. You shouldn't have to feel threatened, cheated, and undermined in your work places, but if those in power see no real alternative in competition they wont change.
HELL NO
I'm all for this but she lives in a fantasy world. You can't scream sexism for being annoying, obnoxious and loud. Doesn't work like that. In fact I think doing that is a disservice to the people who experience the actual sexism. It's like a man speeding then calling racism when he's pulled over.
She wouldn't have had she not been given a second chance and did it even worse.
Also, she's not in the game industry. It's another example of game journos trying to make industry issues about themselves.
Probably most of the truly horrific sexism stories won't make it onto Twitter for fear of reprisal. I know I've heard more than a few from people, but the industry is so small that raising those sort of allegations even sans names would cause trouble.
It was amusing to see my male dev friends take on some of the tweets last night. Most of them don't like the crappy attitude towards women anymore than we do.
I do take issue with the mild dis of AAA cowboy games from Gonigal. I was proud of our cowboy game, dammit!
It was amusing to see my male dev friends take on some of the tweets last night. Most of them don't like the crappy attitude towards women anymore than we do.
I do take issue with the mild dis of AAA cowboy games from Gonigal. I was proud of our cowboy game, dammit!
Next time the booth babe issue arise, someone please refer to these quotes:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...he-night-twitter-took-on-the-industrys-sexism
oh shit you're right.
nevermind then heh, I can't remember a single thing about how Faith was written (though tbh its been YEARS since I played)
I'm not entirely sure why this issue is more prevalent in the game industry. Never really run into this in my industry, as a software dev.
Actually, I'm not sure why females are apparently so uncommon as to be unicorns in technical positions in the gaming industry. That's certainly not the case where I work, where it feels like a pretty decent portion of the technical managers, engineers, and scientists are female.
Actually, I'm not sure why females are apparently so uncommon as to be unicorns in technical positions in the gaming industry. That's certainly not the case where I work, where it feels like a pretty decent portion of the technical managers, engineers, and scientists are female.
Yeah, I agreed with or conceded all of the other ones Platy posted, but this one . . . not so much. At least to me, people who act poorly do not get judged as being badass. They're jerks, plain and simple, regardless of gender.
The others make good points. But some of these, specifically the pay disparity one, are larger problems than just the gaming industry. I understand, in a sense, why women were paid less initially and when they were not permitted to hold the same jobs as men, but in today's day and age there really is no good reason to pay women less than men.
THIS. One has to wonder just how many unreported Stardock incidents and S2 Games CEOs are out there at any given time.
Leigh, just stop. You're an obnoxious drunk and you happened to find yourself on a crazy popular podcast. It has nothing, NOTHING to do with you being female.
If it were a man being that obnoxious he would probably have been thrown out of the fucking building.
There are actual real issues here, and i'm glad awareness is rising.
If it were a man being that obnoxious he would probably have been thrown out of the fucking building.
There are actual real issues here, and i'm glad awareness is rising.
Lilly Ledbetter - that was brought up.. why does it even have to have a time-limit/reset after 180 days :S
He said she was the more memorable character and I think it's because the story of ME had less of an impact than the gameplay and art style - and her design was excellent. The characters and their story were side-line stuff in comparison to their focus on other aspects of the game (admittedly I'm not referring to the combat).
Ok back to shocking news, some men sexist, don't understand the complex issue of treating women as people. Of course shame that they often get away with it (you know the uncomfortable type I'm talking about).
He said she was the more memorable character and I think it's because the story of ME had less of an impact than the gameplay and art style - and her design was excellent. The characters and their story were side-line stuff in comparison to their focus on other aspects of the game (admittedly I'm not referring to the combat).
Ok back to shocking news, some men sexist, don't understand the complex issue of treating women as people. Of course shame that they often get away with it (you know the uncomfortable type I'm talking about).
I think this is a great movement for the women in the industry.
I however, do have a few questions:
Let me preface by saying that if one were to go through my post history they'd see that even though I have higher respect for women than men, I am a supporter of egalitarian society that is capable of establishing its own equilibrium. So please don't jump on my throat.
It is given that there are female gamers in nearly equal measure to men. But:
I however, do have a few questions:
Let me preface by saying that if one were to go through my post history they'd see that even though I have higher respect for women than men, I am a supporter of egalitarian society that is capable of establishing its own equilibrium. So please don't jump on my throat.
It is given that there are female gamers in nearly equal measure to men. But:
- Does market research show a near split between male and female gamers on all games, especially ones that can be considered big and mainstream (WoW, CoD various sports games)?
- Do women who game outline that activity as a hobby or share the experience over social media? If they do, is it similar in percentage of males within male gaming demographic who do the same?
- Do women who don't play games have the same opinion or view of gaming as their male counterpart?
- While I don't have statistical data, there is an impression that guys may count a girl's hobby of playing games an asset. But what about the opposite? How many girls find guys attractive who have on their profile explicitly mentioned that they game?
- And finally, is this a cultural thing endemic to the west where the assumption about the rarity of females who game and are in gaming development that leads to even more baseless assumptions, or would we see the same thing in developed countries in the east (JP, S Korea)?
You or I do not know the full extent to which she's been hounded about this. It's possible people bring it up often in the comments of her work. I can imagine that happening. I can't imagine people giving a shit about the CAH guy after he left the GB show.