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[Speevy]

Or the Wii, for that matter?

Umm...I think the difference there is that I've heard stories of developers training new guys on the Wii.

Nintendo is one of the least technically minded developers on the planet, and Super Mario Galaxy already destroys the technical achievements of nearly every third party Wii game, in development or released.

That really is a case of laziness.

 

[justchris]

Of course it's not a PS3 issue. It's an EA being ****ing lazy assholes issue, and not putting any added effort to draw Cell's strength out.

Oh so they're not being lazy, they're just being money conscious... which, in the end, still means it's not PS3's fault, it's EA's fault for not spending a tiny bit extra out of their ridiculously huge sum of money to take slightly more advantage of Cell.

I agree. EA needs to shine that shit up for Cell.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Nintendo is one of the least technically minded developers on the planet, and Super Mario Galaxy already destroys the technical achievements of nearly every third party Wii game, in development or released.

... what?

 

[FightyF]

Yes, but you were still excusing the early Xbox360 games because the developers were not familiar with the hardware, but have no qualms calling out Sony for making a console that is "difficult to develop for."

Can't have it both ways.

Yes he can. He was excusing launch games. Not 2nd year games.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Yes, but you were still excusing the early Xbox360 games because the developers were not familiar with the hardware, but have no qualms calling out Sony for making a console that is "difficult to develop for."

Can't have it both ways.

Well 360 luckily was launched a year early so those qualms are easily forgivable. There was no comparisons to be made and at the time the games didn't look that bad. (Kameo, PGR3, GRAW)

I am just simply calling out Sony to stop calling other developers lazy and to go the extra mile and provide excellent dev tools to ensure quality products for their consumers.

They are in a sticky situation by being in 3rd place... they need to make PS3 development as easy as it possibly can.

As I said... its irrelevant as to why 3rd party games look worse... because from the consumers perspective it doesn't really matter.

 

[theBishop]

Umm...I think the difference there is that I've heard stories of developers training new guys on the Wii.

Nintendo is one of the least technically minded developers on the planet, and Super Mario Galaxy already destroys the technical achievements of nearly every third party Wii game, in development or released.

That really is a case of laziness.

Has the N64 really been erased from the history books?

 

[reilo]

Well 360 luckily was launched a year early so those qualms are easily forgivable. There was no comparisons to be made and at the time the games didn't look that bad. (Kameo, PGR3, GRAW)

I am just simply calling out Sony to stop calling other developers lazy and to go the extra mile and provide excellent dev tools to ensure quality products for their consumers.

They are in a sticky situation by being in 3rd place... they need to make PS3 development as easy as it possibly can.

As I said... its irrelevant as to why 3rd party games look worse... because from the consumers perspective it doesn't really matter.

... but they are!

Argh. Phil said so even in the damn interview.

Yes he can. He was excusing launch games. Not 2nd year games.

Madden 07 for X360 was 30FPS.

Second year game.

What's your excuse now?

 

[Speevy]

... what?

You want some quotes? Reggie? Shigeru Miyamoto? Satoru Iwata? All of them have said time and time again that their focus is not on pushing the technical envelope.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

... but they are!

Argh. Phil said so even in the damn interview.

Oh, I don't think the content of the interview matters much to Kramer's crusade.

You want some quotes? Reggie? Shigeru Miyamoto? Satoru Iwata? All of them have said time and time again that their focus is not on pushing the technical envelope.

"Technically minded" seemed to me to suggest that they lack interest and talent in technological progress. The clarification makes more sense.

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

Phil is the only guy at Sony who learned to not put his foot in his mouth.

Someone needs to hire Karma Kramer as PR.

LOLLERIFIC AM TOTALMENTE.

 

[Barnolde]

Everyone should know that all Sony consoles are hard to dev for at first, which is why all the INSANE games come out at the end of the lifecycle.

Sky Odyssey -> God of War 2 = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vs Xbox where it's easy to peak the system and the jump in games isn't all that major.

Halo -> Riddick = !

 

[just tray]

Don't forget the massive stadiums compared to NBA arenas.

and all 22 players have their own a.i. football is more complicated than b-ball not to mention the fact that its a faster game.

he talks as if that piece of crap sony game has anything worthwhile in it. even that pice of trash nba live is better than sonys b-ball attempts

 

[reilo]

and all 22 players have their own a.i. football is more complicated than b-ball not to mention the fact that its a faster game.

he talks as if that piece of crap sony game has anything worthwhile in it. even that pice of trash nba live is better than sonys b-ball attempts

Okay, I was agreeing with you up until that point, and stopped reading there.

Now let me ask...

What?

How is football a faster game than basketball?

Unless you are talking football as in soccer?

 

[BradVanDam]

i thought madden was 60 fps locked?

 

[rakka]

... what?

Nintendo's games on the GC had the best visuals on the system now?

 

[wonderkins]

Doom_Bringer has got to be chuckling at this thread.

These type of threads were his finest moments; arguing with devs over what they know. Arguing about technology with bullet points and PR quotes in hand. Where's that picture of the Cell?

Classic!

 

[FightyF]

Madden 07 for X360 was 30FPS.

Second year game.

What's your excuse now?

It was the first game created on final dev kits. Also, judging by the way they developed the title (AA, 3D grass, crazy detail), it looks like they weren't even shooting for 60 fps, at all.

Karmer responded to the points about the launch 360 games, and we all know that the launch games suffered from a lack of finalized dev kits. As I said, with Madden there seemed to be a conscious decision to go the route they did...but so many other games were leaps above their past iterations. NHL 2K7, for example, looked way better than 2K6, which was essentially an Xbox port.

It's an extremely important point...you have to realize that the 360 in 2005 was cutting edge technology that became physical reality months before the console was due out. Compare that to the PS3 launch where at E3 05 they were hinting at launching in Spring 2006. They didn't meet that target, but obviously the console wasn't as rushed out the door like the 360.

I don't see why you are debating Kramer's point that the PS3 is harder to get more out of than the 360. The 360 has been out for longer, has more mature development tools, and stuck with a design that is somewhat familiar (multicore programming is still new to lots of people, though) as compared to the PS3.

What is there to argue?

I'm gonna draw a line in the sand here...I'm gonna make points which reflect what I've said in this thread, and I'm out...

-You can't call developers lazy. They bust their asses to tight deadlines and don't have all the time in the World to get the most out of every console. You can call them unskilled, but even in this case, where Epic is having issues, it's a label you can't apply.

-It's harder to maximize the potential the PS3 offers, as compared to the 360, due to some hardware differences. It takes more research, knowledge, and time to maximize the potential of CELL.

-If Sony expects games from 3rd parties to maximize the PS3's potential, it is Sony's responsibility to help them, rather than expect developers to delay their games.

-Sony is currently helping developers. Harrison mentioned it, Epic mentioned it earlier and Bish confirmed it in this thread.

-Harrison's comment hinting that EA is to blame that they can't get a game running 60fps on their console, while they can on a weaker console, was ridiculous and a bad move on his part.

If you do not agree to any of the above, you are stupid, you need help, you need to start using your brain, so on and so forth.

So I've made my points, I've backed them up with earlier posts...I'm pretty sure I made them all clear...so I'm outta this thread.

Catch ya on the flipside, dudemeisters!

 

[Speevy]

vs Xbox where it's easy to peak the system and the jump in games isn't all that major.

Halo -> Riddick = !

Riddick was released in early 2004.

Also, the argument (I believe) is about the ease of development in multiplatform titles. Developers were still getting better results out of the Xbox in 2005. Obviously the Xbox lacks a breadth of games to compete with the best the PS2 has to offer, but there were still some huge strides.

For example, Project Gotham Racing - Rallisport Challenge 2

Amped - Amped 2

Blinx: The Time Sweeper - Conker Live and Reloaded (there aren't many examples of platformers on the Xbox)

Project Gotham Racing 2 - Forza Motorsport

Any action game on the Xbox - Phantom Dust

Any other action game on the Xbox - Ninja Gaiden

Splinter Cell - Splinter Cell Chaos Theory


etc.

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

You can't call developers lazy. They bust their asses to tight deadlines and don't have all the time in the World to get the most out of every console. You can call them unskilled, but even in this case, where Epic is having issues, it's a label you can't apply.

Didn't read the rest, but this caught my eye.

Yes, yes you can. Of course, we're really talking about the overall effort, rather than critiquing any one individual (although if we were pointing fingers, it's much more at the executives that make these sorts of asshole decisions).

 

[Raist]

It would concern me if the platform was incapable of doing it, but we've proven the platform is capable of doing it, so it's not a PlayStation 3 issue. I'm trying to be polite.

zing :lol

 

[Raist]

I know I am no technological expert on the inner workings of the PS3 and Xbox 360... but I listen and observe to what devs and the industry has said to establish my own opinion.

You are a dev and your knowledge is far greater than mine... so I am open ears.

You obviously listen to a restricted selection of developpers

 

[Karma Kramer]

You obviously listen to a restricted selection of developpers

As I said I am open ears...

 

[Barnolde]

Riddick was released in early 2004.

Also, the argument (I believe) is about the ease of development in multiplatform titles. Developers were still getting better results out of the Xbox in 2005. Obviously the Xbox lacks a breadth of games to compete with the best the PS2 has to offer, but there were still some huge strides.

For example, Project Gotham Racing - Rallisport Challenge 2

Amped - Amped 2

Blinx: The Time Sweeper - Conker Live and Reloaded (there aren't many examples of platformers on the Xbox)

Project Gotham Racing 2 - Forza Motorsport

Any action game on the Xbox - Phantom Dust

Any other action game on the Xbox - Ninja Gaiden

Splinter Cell - Splinter Cell Chaos Theory


etc.

I was merely pointing out two random examples of early and later games. An early PS2 game vs a very impressive late PS2 game. The pinnacle of launch games vs a very impressive game with the OXM quote of "best looking Xbox game". All I'm saying it's that it's easier to master the Xbox than the PlayStation.

The Xbox always got the better multiplatform titles (custom soundtracks > sparks) as it was vastly superior to the PS2. The PS3/360 are much more comparable and I'd even say (currently) the PS3's superiority is even smaller than the Xbox/GC gap.

The jump from early, crummy PS2 games to things like SotC, Okami and GoW2 is more drastic than the jump of Xbox games from Halo, PGR, Amped to Riddick, HL2, NG, SC: CT.

 

[FightyF]

Didn't read the rest, but this caught my eye.

Yes, yes you can. Of course, we're really talking about the overall effort, rather than critiquing any one individual (although if we were pointing fingers, it's much more at the executives that make these sorts of asshole decisions).

Y'know, as I said, you would have to be STUPID to dispute any of the points I made.

But I didn't mention that it would be stupider to dispute it without backing it up with any evidence or fact.

So let me state that now, not only would it be stupid to dispute any of those points, it would be stupider to do so without any evidence or fact.

Just had to make that clear.

 

[Raist]

As I said I am open ears...

Like, you've never seen those comments from various developpers saying that people who whine "oh noez PS3 is hard to code for " should just stfu ?
Yeah, right.


As for "laziness" well, the word is a bit harsh maybe. But, when Namco can pull a racing game running @ native 1080p, 60fps, for the launch of the console, I'd say there's a little problem when some developpers have a hard time making a football game run @ 30fps, almost 1 year after the console launched. Especially when developpers now have some more efficient tools.
To me, that sounds like "360 is the leading plat and we didn't bother optimizing much"

 

[Sypher]

Bish is a developer? For whom?

 

[Tideas]

if EA didnt have the football license, i would have love for sony to make a football game to show that 1080p, 60fps is possible, or at least, 720p 60 fps is possible.

But unfortuantely, EA gobbled up the license, so we can only hope

 

[Speevy]

Bish is a developer? For whom?

The guys making Turok.

 

[rakka]

Bish is a developer? For whom?

Mickey/propaganda

 

[lips]

-It's harder to maximize the potential the PS3 offers, as compared to the 360, due to some hardware differences. It takes more research, knowledge, and time to maximize the potential of CELL.

I see you writing one thing, but I feel you are trying to express anouther. It is as though you are trying to tell me that although cell has far less available resources, those resources are less accessable because a lack of programming tools, leaving ps3 offering less. Even the most brief glance at cell specs leaves one noticing they are considerably greater than 360's cpu, so anyone with even a whim of interest would instantly recognize this as telling us developers are finding cell offer a technical barrier that is yet unreachable, or is so great, is difficult to express.

I see there is much more to the post, but it all seems to try and establish the same idea. Phil does express ps3 has enough in it to handle a modest sports title. The RSX itself has the internals for processing over a billion vertices a second. I am sure no one would claim that 22 rendered instances over ten would make a substantial difference in terms of this procedural render pipelining.

 

[pswii60]

The jump from early, crummy PS2 games to things like SotC, Okami and GoW2 is more drastic than the jump of Xbox games from Halo, PGR, Amped to Riddick, HL2, NG, SC: CT.

Yes, but the PS2 was out a couple of years earlier (certainly in Japan) and SotC, Okami and GoW2 were released AFTER MS had killed off the Xbox. We're talking about a good 3 years difference + likely more if we include dev time, as Xbox was rushed to market.

The original Xbox's power was never fully realised, it just didn't have the length of life-cycle required.


As for this thread, I'm certain Madden will be 60fps on PS3 next year.

 

[Pope Benedict XVI]

That "I'm trying to be polite" remark was a smidgen impolite

 

[Sypher]

The guys making Turok.

Ban him?

 

[mr_bishiuk]

Hopefully we wont need to hear any excuses next year from sony or devs.

Also I take exception to people calling devs "lazy" simply because they cant get a game running as well on one machine as they an on another, maybe just maybe it isn't their fault!

 

[Tideas]

Lazy publishers . IF given more time, the devs for the PS3 would have been able to get 60 fps

 

[gljvd]

remember when the ps3 first launched and games that came out on xbox 360 first looked better on the 360 than the ps3. People haha, ps3 am doomed.

fast forward and now the tools are in place and the ps3 versions are looking much better and now its something else. You guys crack me up.

Oh wait, I get it. You're one of those dudes who hang out at best buy and crap on the systems you don't like when people reach for the box don't you?

Remember when back in 2007 the biggest sports title for the usa was better graphicly on the 360 ?

Yea see how that works.

The amount of games so far that are better on the 360 surpass the amount of games that are better on the ps3 .


Lets face it , this is EA the biggest third party dev out there . This is their baby madden . Do you really think EA didn't pull out all the stops to make this 60fps for the ps3 ?

What you should be asking is why Sony didn't send out some programers to help them . Or if they did , why couldn't they make it work at 60fps ?

Perhaps there is a problem with the ps3 that requires alot of work around .


Regardless . Madden 2008 is graphicly better on the 360 than on the ps3 . CLaim whatever you want but its a major selling point for the 360 this holiday season .

 

[KachoMakura]

Every other developer!? Every other developer is not lazy, there are many who take advantage of PS3's strengths.



Oh so they're not being lazy, they're just being money conscious... which, in the end, still means it's not PS3's fault, it's EA's fault for not spending a tiny bit extra out of their ridiculously huge sum of money to take slightly more advantage of Cell. Not to mention PS3 Madden sold even more than Wii Madden, and PS3 Madden is a port from 360 Madden which mitigates much of the cost!

Why would they spend twice as much developing the PS3 version just to get it on-par with 360, especially when the marketshare is how it is now? Be realistic man.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Great interview. I like how he dodged the Wii question. I was a bit disappointed at the lack of Phil Harrison presence at E3, but i guess its good he didn't take the chewbacca stain on himself.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Great interview. I like how he dodged the Wii question. I was a bit disappointed at the lack of Phil Harrison presence at E3, but i guess its good he didn't take the chewbacca stain on himself.

You do realize it was him wearing the costume right...

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

The original Xbox's power was never fully realized.

This statement I hear often, but it's bullcrap at best. The system was easy to develop for and was maxed out fairly quickly.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

You do realize it was him wearing the costume right...

I'm trying to be polite. :lol

 

[Escalation]

Harrison comes across well. I'm always interested in seeing what he says when interviewed.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I acknowledge the core of that audience is in Europe

so why do you consistently treat us like shit, Phil?

 

[POWERSPHERE]

I think it's good that other companies are looking at that space, as well, because it will help grow the market.

I see what he did there....

 

[J-Rzez]

Wow at the people trying to protect EA here... Pathetic... They want to stress how quality their games are, then they need to prove... Right now, they're pathetic until Burnout or something of value comes out to prove their worth...

Then again, if EA was slacking on their system of choice, would they fight for EA then? Right......

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

I think that "I'm trying to be polite" comment was a little irresponsible from someone in Phil's position.

Perhaps a better reply would've been "the PS3 is a new architecture, and it has only been in developers hands for a year. It is understandable that developers may be more experienced on a platform they've had for twice as long"

People keep saying how Phil is great but that one comment left a bad flavor to the whole interview from one of Sony's top guys. Yeah, EA is probably just doing what they always do: trying to get a product out for cheap. Is this new? EA pumping out a yearly update lacking key features. Isn't that the tagline they put on the back of the box? So, why would Phil draw attention to it with the comment, 'I'm trying to be polite'? I'm not sure I accept the universal gafpinion that this is a great interview. Sounds like a snide comment to me.

 

[manxor]

Wow at the people trying to protect EA here... Pathetic... They want to stress how quality their games are, then they need to prove... Right now, they're pathetic until Burnout or something of value comes out to prove their worth...

Then again, if EA was slacking on their system of choice, would they fight for EA then? Right......

Seriously, protecting a developer? Rooting for Tiburon?
We should all be rooting for the platform holder, the maker of the hardware. It's not their fault the people who are making the game (Tiburon) aren't able to get the performance out of their machine.

If only those lazy programmers at Tiburon stopped leaving work at 5pm everyday and taking 3 hour lunches, they could surely figure this out. What's Sony supposed to do? Sony's already given them their Edge tools. What, is Sony supposed to go out of their way and send a special team out to help them maximize performance or something? It's not like this is some important game or anything worthy of going to such extremes. Better to give that attention to Lair & Heavenly Sword... Surely those titles will sell more systems than some American Football game.

Tiburon doesn't make Madden anyway, some mythical evil force called EA does.


http://www.tiburon.com/home.html
I keep hitting F5 to read all the new lies that keep popping up. These aren't real people! They don't exist! This is madness!

 

[a.wd]

This statement I hear often, but it's bullcrap at best. The system was easy to develop for and was maxed out fairly quickly.

by what?

IF you look at the example of someone just above comparing launch to 7-8 year old games for the Playstation 2 what do you think someone could have come up with if there were 100million xboxes and 3 more years of development available?

Ninja Gaiden still holds up against a vastly technically superior system (no before the naysayers start I'm not saying the PS3 version and original Xbox versions are the same, but the gap isn't all that big is it really?). so if they could get that out easily what do you think would have been possible had someone really tried getting a lot more out of the system. ?

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

Y'know, as I said, you would have to be STUPID to dispute any of the points I made.

But I didn't mention that it would be stupider to dispute it without backing it up with any evidence or fact.

So let me state that now, not only would it be stupid to dispute any of those points, it would be stupider to do so without any evidence or fact.

Just had to make that clear.

This has to be the most nonsensical retort to anyone one of my comments I've seen yet on this forum. It's just one lame ad hominen stated in a few different lines.

Is it really that unfair to consider that lack of overall effort in creating a game title is what's caused the game to suck as bad as it has? Hell, even the 60FPS Madden is pretty poor, with marginal improvements, from what I can understand. Does it surprise you that this same company makes the decision to churn out a poor port?

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

People keep saying how Phil is great but that one comment left a bad flavor to the whole interview from one of Sony's top guys. Yeah, EA is probably just doing what they always do: trying to get a product out for cheap. Is this new? EA pumping out a yearly update lacking key features. Isn't that the tagline they put on the back of the box? So, why would Phil draw attention to it with the comment, 'I'm trying to be polite'? I'm not sure I accept the universal gafpinion that this is a great interview. Sounds like a snide comment to me.

Any more snide than having a publisher churn out crap for your platform, because they can't be assed spending the effort to properly optimized?