Support NeoGAF

[Riposte]

I wonder if people who reject glorified violence or desperately try to justify their pleasure from it (either because they can't accept that they like it or they feel pressured by others to not mention they like it public) feel any internal struggle over instincts.

I don't understand those that say "No! Don't take away the gore! It's awesome, bring it on!". How does gore make the game more enjoyable? How do the gory scenes (eye pulling scene or the nail pulling scene) make the game more 'awesome'?

It's pleasing to see your avatar demolish something. It describes power. Seeing something giant and mighty like the Cyclops, rendered to the detail as SSM gives it, get butchered can be awe-inspiring (awesome). It is the difference between punching a wall and punching a wall which shatters on impact.

 

[Rattles]

This thread and replies.

 

[elcapitan]

So what does that say about people who enjoy running around as a psychopath?

It says they can make that all important distinction of separating fantasy from reality, like normal sane people.

 

[StevePharma]

Obviously the game isn't doing anything special for the reporter, and I like that he states this instead of just going down the feature list while sounding a surrogate press release.

I like the GoW and violence is a part of that. Spartans, Greeks and Romans were pretty brutal people. I studied Greek and Latin and this is just a glorification of gore that was applied excessively during those times.

It's no way different than what you see in TV series like Rome or Game of Thrones.

 

[squid]

Why do I have to squash the goombas in Super Mario Bros? Does it make the game more awesome that I'm brutally squashing their spines into a tangled slinky and turning their brains into a mushy soup inside their skulls?

People like to be shocked, scared, horrified, and what have you. It basically comes down to adrenaline. It's not new to GoW

I'm not talking about the actual act of killing the enemy, which is a basic gameplay mechanic in most games. I'm talking about the level of gore. Why is the extra gore awesome?

Edit: Some later replies have answered my question.

 

[nib95]

So what does that say about people who enjoy running around as a psychopath?

Same thing as people who enjoy watching horror films or ultra violent films, TV shows etc. Se7en, 300, Spartacus, Hellraiser etc etc. You have to ask yourself why people enjoy subjecting themselves to being scared, or watching such insane violence. Who really knows?

For me personally, I guess it's some inner male desire for raw violence or fighting akin to the old days. Only it's acceptable in movies and games since you're never actually ever going to do it in real life.

 

[Rattles]

I'm not talking about the actual act of killing the enemy, which is a basic gameplay mechanic in most games. I'm talking about the level of gore. Why is the extra gore awesome?

Cause gore is awesome duh.

 

[Treemonkeys]

It says they can make that all important distinction of separating fantasy from reality, like normal sane people.

Still seems a little sick to me.

 

[NoirVisage]

protip he wasn't actually calling them serial killers

tell that to one of the journo's he slighted with that hyperbolic remark.

 

[Treemonkeys]

Same thing as people who enjoy watching horror films or ultra violent films, TV shows etc. Se7en, 300, Spartacus, Hellraiser etc etc. You have to ask yourself why people enjoy subjecting themselves to being scared, or watching such insane violence. Who really knows?

For me personally, I guess it's some inner male desire for raw violence or fighting akin to the old days. Only it's acceptable in movies and games since you're never actually ever going to do it in real life.

Well to be fair some of that stuff have positive elements in it which to me can make it enjoyable. God of War is just pure murder and rage.

 

[rdrr gnr]

The violence in the trailer didn't even register for me. I was more concerned about the texture work and the lighting. I'm not exactly sure how anyone in this day and age could truly be put off by a game's violence. Sure, you could argue my criticism is an indefensible form of relativism, but that I concede. Look at it this way: I have an unwavering aversion towards NSFL images. I have never clicked one on my own accord, nor do I intend to. I am the person who would unquestionably be scarred for life as those mental images would unsettle me to no end. I didn't even blink an eye at the footage provided. Once violence is displayed under the framework of fiction (whether it be computer generated or a television drama) there is not much -- if anything -- that would bother me. That doesn't mean I can't find it unwarranted or excessive within the narrative -- but I wouldn't condemn it solely for being violence.

Secondly, I find the "Greek mythology" arguments interesting. Do I believe the source material justifies the violence to a certain extent? Yes. Do I believe that it is the best defense for the violence? No. I think the violence works on a number of levels outside of the source material: (1) novelty (it just looks amazing); (2) thematically consistent (violence and Kratos are one and the same); (3) most enemies are animal-like in nature (a different type of violence). Violence exists as a byproduct of these factors -- not necessarily for the sake of being violence itself (though I'm sure that is a part of it).

Finally, I don't like the idea of sending "journalists" in who are not somewhat familiar with the game. I would feel uneasy about reviewing or previewing a game from a genre I have absolutely no experience in (e.g. MMO or a sports game). The issue is not the interests of the previewer sent, but the previewer himself. In theory, the interest a "journalist" has in a game should scale with his capability to criticize it in a meaningful manner. In other words, the more invested in a franchise I am, the more nuanced and significant my impressions should be. This is almost never the case.

 

[nib95]

Well to be fair some of that stuff have positive elements in it which to me can make it enjoyable. God of War is just pure murder and rage.

It is, but like say, Kill Bill, there's also a narrative to it. Which is vengeance. The Gods tricked him in to killing the only one thing he ever softened to, his wife and child. After losing that one thing that grounded him, and in such fashion, yes, rage and anger did consume him. But to be fair, most of the Gods in the game had it coming, and there's lots of mini stories along the way which add value to the different tasks, quests, goals, kills etc.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

I guess it adds to the ruthlessness of Kratos as a character, and exemplifies the horror and carnage he is capable of. Same reason you get crazy gore in certain horrors or thrillers, or action films like Ninja Assassin. Brutality is the most visceral way to highlight the abilities of such reckless and psychopathic, but still very much skilled warriors.

Tbh, it suits Kratos's character perfectly. The guy really IS a serial killer and psychopath. No denying that. You really do get the sense that he will absolutely destroy and punish anything that stands in his way. Severely.


There are so many times throughout the franchise that you actually feel the fear and gut wrenching panic of his enemies as they realise they are not going to win this one, and that Kratos is going to fuck their shit up like they could never have even imagined. Happened with so many bosses I've lost count. Definitely adds to the game imo.

Didn't really care for Ninja Assassins, but the final fight scene in Rob Roy made me stand up and cheer, BECAUSE of the gore, because it was JUSTIFIED.

 

[Boogalogist]

The violence level shown is just what I expected in a GoW game....

Did this guy just graduate from an Angry Bird game?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

in actual greek mythology kratos's story would have ended right after killing his wife and daughter, because he would have learned his lesson: don't enter into servitude under one of the most hated gods in the greek pantheon just so you can win fights and kill people, because you might just get what you wished for

 

[Treemonkeys]

It is, but like say, Kill Bill, there's also a narrative to it. Which is vengeance. The Gods tricked him in to killing the only one thing he ever softened to, his wife and child. After losing that one thing that grounded him, and in such fashion, yes, rage and anger did consume him. But to be fair, most of the Gods in the game had it coming, and there's lots of mini stories along the way which add value to the different tasks, quests, goals, kills etc.

Kratos is fairly unique in his extreme decadence however, Kill Bill doesn't really compare in that regard. The gods tricked him because he was already a psychopath and thus easily "tricked" into killing innocent people.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Yes, and Mario Bros. can be compared to Man with a Movie Camera.

 

[Riposte]

The violence level shown is just what I expected in a GoW game....

Did this guy just graduate from an Angry Bird game?

Angry Birds is actually quite violent, and I'm not making a joke here. Flinging something to smash down towers and letting the physics make a big display of it (with explosions of some sort as an added touch) is definitely violent. It is more a matter of gore and realism.

 

[staticneuron]

This is kind of missing the point, and being reductionist (centaurs aren't real!)

Aside from the level of violence portrayed, what gives some people pause is the way the player avatar in the game revels in the killing and goes for violence that is often unnecessary.

In a sense it's not about the targets (whether they're man shaped or centaur shaped), but the purpose behind the display of violence and gore, and the player's role in it.

It's interesting that it's now been pointed out 'but Kratos pays for his sins in the end'. Because while that is technically true, as far as the player is concerned while playing Kratos, that's irrelevant. For 99% of the game(s) Kratos is a murder machine who kills for the sake of killing - heck, he doesn't even evoke the excuse of a typical game protagonist, such as being forced to fight, fighting for a greater good, to save someone, etc.

If anything, God of War is remarkably ugly and nihilistic in that regard; Kratos kills for the sake of killing, his goal to burn the world and destroy the gods because he's decided everyone must die.

1. The reaction are similar to any medium you could imagine that has a visible Villian that is recognized by many. Example... Inglorious Bastards. People tend to cheer when the bad guy or evil creature gets it, and the more evil or heartless they perceive the villain to be the less likely they are going to sympathize when it is taken out brutally.

It is NOT a normal social response to wonder why people are cheering an obvious antagonist(especially a giant menacing creature) getting brutally killed.

2. Kratos does not kill for the sake of killing. He has a very focused and direct sense of purpose. That single minded pursuit of revenge may tear the world asunder but he doesn't care about the ramifications (it is indicated that his extreme behavior and power was influenced by the box). If Kratos killed for the sake of killing I would imagine the game being more like a GTA clone.... which is a game that allows you to do just that.

This is an interesting point, because it does perhaps bring up the difficulty of presenting certain themes when a human controlled, personalized avatar is involved.

No matter how much Kratos is supposed to be 'revolting' and 'a force of nature', at the end of the day he is also a big beefy McDude with shaven head who snarls and slices things up in a way that appeals to young male power fantasies. That the game slaps combo meters on the screen, makes this action awesome and a blast highlights a conflict of interest. Probably something worth considering as games move forward. If you want to evoke a theme, what if that theme goes against player involvement? How do you make a player not enjoy that which is not supposed to be enjoyable in the fiction itself, when the action of playing the game is fun?

If you watch a movie in which a disgusting, sociopathic mobster goes on a killing rampage leaving tragedy in his wake, you the viewer can remain objective and are free to feel horror at the character's actions. Place that same scenario in Grand Theft Auto and... it's all well and good that the cut scenes say "Tony is a bad guy, don't be like Tony, kids." Except the action of playing the game is awesome, shootin' shit up and running down peds with stolen wheels.

Kratos is supposed to be an anti hero, but his motivations are clearly defined and so are his targets. Just because people find enjoyment out of the story or game doesn't automatically make it different than other mediums. For films I can point out Mel Gibsons Payback as an example or Oldboy. The concept of anti heroes wreaking such havok is an old one.

But people miss the point of the series. Kratos NEEDS to be like that for the story to work. If taken on face value the GoW series can be seen as a story about the end times for greek gods. They aren't around today right? So what happened to them? And how are we still alive? The game sets out to answer the question in a very interesting way because the character and the explanation for his backstory and journey for revenge takes elements from many other greek myths.

It would make no sense for a heroic demigod to try to take out the god given that it could mean that all human life may cease to exists. It doesn't even make sense for an evil demigod to that because of self preservation. To do that they used Kratos, who is broken, fueled by supernatural power and is in a fixated rage to exact revenge on the gods.

Kratos is fairly unique in his extreme decadence however, Kill Bill doesn't really compare in that regard. The gods tricked him because he was already a psychopath and thus easily "tricked" into killing innocent people.

No, it isn't that simple. Ares tricked Kratos, and it wasn't because he was a psychopath, it was because he was a warmonger the story changed tracks though because of what he did to beat ares.

in actual greek mythology kratos's story would have ended right after killing his wife and daughter, because he would have learned his lesson: don't enter into servitude under one of the most hated gods in the greek pantheon just so you can win fights and kill people, because you might just get what you wished for

Doubt it. In actual Greek myth, He would have still made the journey and fought all the creatures but most likely would not have been able to kill ares. IT would have either ended with him tricking the gods into giving his family back or him dying. But considering he is a demigod, chances are tricking gods to get his family back would have been more likely.

 

[NoirVisage]

in actual greek mythology kratos's story would have ended right after killing his wife and daughter, because he would have learned his lesson: don't enter into servitude under one of the most hated gods in the greek pantheon just so you can win fights and kill people, because you might just get what you wished for

he learned a greater lesson, unbridled rage and a lust for god blood makes you pretty much unstoppable. thats kind of the allure of the series.

 

[nib95]

Kratos is fairly unique in his extreme decadence however, Kill Bill doesn't really compare in that regard. The gods tricked him because he was already a psychopath and thus easily "tricked" into killing innocent people.

I don't know if he was a psychopath before, but he was certainly power mad, like many conquerers before him. He wanted to wage war with, and conquer as many lands as possible, and did so through war (the thing he is best at).

I think the psychopathic switch really flipped after the incident with his family, but before that, I guess he was just as crazy as any great ruler that had to destroy entire nations, cities and armies to get where they got.

 

[soultron]

God of War III turned me off when you had to rip a guy's head off from a very bizarre camera angle. After seeing that in a trailer, I said to myself I'd never play it. It's just too much for me. Watching the stuff in those GIFs was taking that a step further.

I don't want the series to stop existing or anything dumb/selfish like that but I'm constantly reminded why I'll never ever play a GOW game ever again. (Tried with GOW1, and after ~6 hours I decided the gameplay wasn't my style either.)

 

[Forceatowulf]

This is kind of missing the point, and being reductionist (centaurs aren't real!)

Aside from the level of violence portrayed, what gives some people pause is the way the player avatar in the game revels in the killing and goes for violence that is often unnecessary.

In a sense it's not about the targets (whether they're man shaped or centaur shaped), but the purpose behind the display of violence and gore, and the player's role in it.

It's interesting that it's now been pointed out 'but Kratos pays for his sins in the end'. Because while that is technically true, as far as the player is concerned while playing Kratos, that's irrelevant. For 99% of the game(s) Kratos is a murder machine who kills for the sake of killing - heck, he doesn't even evoke the excuse of a typical game protagonist, such as being forced to fight, fighting for a greater good, to save someone, etc.

If anything, God of War is remarkably ugly and nihilistic in that regard; Kratos kills for the sake of killing, his goal to burn the world and destroy the gods because he's decided everyone must die.

And it oversells it to paint everyone here as some sort of delicate flower that is overly offended at some video game violence. Mostly, folks have just said of most games God of War gives them a moment of pause, and has an element that's a bit uneasy.

Given that many of the people discussing it are "hardened" gamers themselves who have killed plenty of Digital Mans in their time, doesn't that say something?

It's also not like people are saying "Ban God of War! Ban torture porn!"

Have you played the GOW series? It doesn't sound like it, buddy... "Kratos kills for the sake of killing," are you kidding me!? ahaha

Tell you what, go actually play the games you're criticizing and then get back to me, chief. And if you have really played them, why don't you actually pay attention this time?

So if you don't enjoy a game, or even one particular aspect of a game, you shouldn't go to a discussion board to discuss it? Would you prefer the discussion for every game just be an echo chamber, free from other points of view?

Nah, you can discuss. I'm totally fine with that. Doesn't mean the topic of discussion isn't totally worthless though. Hell, it's pretty obvious a lot of people in here haven't even played the games, and have even admitted as much. And you expect me to think of this "discussion" as anything but worthless? Please.

Look, I hate My Little Pony's. Can't stand the shit. You'll never catch me in a My Little Pony's thread talking about that though, because it's shittiness doesn't affect my life enough for me to care that much. And I know other people enjoy it and they're not hurting anyone by watching it, so.. I leave it alone... I move on in life.

If GOW's violence bothers you so much don't play it. Problem solved. I don't have to watch My Little Pony's and people don't have to play GOW. Move on and let people enjoy the games they love without people wagging their fucking fingers in their faces. Ya know, you'd think someone like yourself would be a little more supportive of that...

Those gifs didn't bother me at all.

I don't know what it is about video game violence but it doesn't effect me at all.

That's because It's a god damn video game. Some people are way too overly sensitive. And I'm glad they have a plethora of games to choose from not named GOW.

Hell, I showed my 68 year old grandmother GOW3 when I first got it because I wanted her to see how gorgeous it looked on my new HD plasma. I played about 20 minutes in front of her and she made maybe two comments about the violence. She couldn't have cared less about that game by the end of the 20 minutes. Didn't seem put off by anything at all. Just bored.

How the fuck can a bunch of young men and women be more outraged by VG violence than a 68 year old mother of 4?? Blows my mind.

Spoiler

In fairness though, this is also the same woman who bought me LOADED for the PS1 when I was like 10. So she's not exactly the best example lol

 

[Treemonkeys]

I don't know if he was a psychopath before, but he was certainly power mad, like many conquerers before him. He wanted to wage war with, and conquer as many lands as possible, and did so through war (the thing he is best at).

I think the psychopathic switch really flipped after the incident with his family, but before that, I guess he was just as crazy as any great ruler that had to destroy entire nations, cities and armies to get where they got.

If I remember correctly he killed a roomful of innocent people while not realizing his family was in there. That's psychopathic. Had he been unwilling to simply murder people he wouldn't have been able to be tricked like that.

 

[Zekes!]

Nowadays, I find that I often need a break from overly violent games, and I've also realized that I've been subconsciously avoiding them from time to time as well.

When I was younger violence and gore seemed shocking and cool, but now I often find it unnecessary, or rarely, unappealing.

 

[Treemonkeys]

Nowadays, I find that I often need a break from overly violent games, and I've also realized that I've been subconsciously avoiding them from time to time as well.

It wasn't something that bothered me even 5 years ago, and it's not like I am disturbed by them now I just have zero desire to spend my time doing such disgusting things.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Not a fan of the ultra violence and torture porn. Don't like those movies either, make me queasy. It becomes excessive and vile and a little degrading to the soul. Everything in moderation and within limits.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

It blows my mind that this is even a discussion concerning a game eyeballs deep in Greek mythology.

What am I even reading with some of these replies?

 

[nib95]

Now that I think about it, when they first showed the Helios head tear scene, I did actually think it went a bit too far. But then I quickly desensitised lol. Having said that, for some reason I don't find the jaw/eye thing nearly as bad.

A cyclops is fighting you. Slashing it in the face or stabbing it in the eye to me seems like the logical course of action. With Helios, I guess he could have chopped off his head instead of actually tearing it off with his bare hands, but Kratos is crazy like that lol.

 

[mysteriousmage09]

If I remember correctly he killed a roomful of innocent people while not realizing his family was in there. That's psychopathic. Had he been unwilling to simply murder people he wouldn't have been able to be tricked like that.

Kind of don't have a choice when the God of War Ares is ordering you to do it after you have sworn your life to him.

 

[Treemonkeys]

Kind of didn't have a choice when the God of War Ares is ordering you to do it after you have sworn your life to him.

...but didn't he kill ares later on lol? Regardless, it's the writers that have the choice.

 

[chickdigger802]

Now that I think about it, when they first showed the Helios head tear scene, I did actually think it went a bit too far. But then I quickly desensitised lol. Having said that, for some reason I don't find the jaw/eye thing nearly as bad.

A cyclops is fighting you. Slashing it in the face or stabbing it in the eye to me seems like the logical course of action. With Helios, I guess he could have chopped off his head instead of actually tearing it off with his bare hands, but Kratos is crazy like that lol.

idk... I don't recall any 'self defense' going on.

That cyclops was just chilling. And the asshole slashed his mouth off!

 

[nib95]

...but didn't he kill ares later on lol? Regardless, it's the writers that have the choice.

Yea, but that's the point lol. He killed him in revenge.

 

[Treemonkeys]

Yea, but that's the point lol. He killed him in revenge.

So he also could have killed him for trying to force him to kill innocents, he had a choice as a fictional character. lol

 

[ctrayne]

.

 

[Riposte]

Seems to be taken for granted that displaying violence is bad. People are also very quick to dismiss power fantasies as "juvenile", but praise fantasies nonetheless.

I think what we have here is a system of thought which tries to grab "messages" out of everything (ideas on how you should lead your life), even though trying to express messages with fiction is a mess (especially escapist fiction with an overwrought presentation working against clarity, and that's not even considering game mechanics). I could see how such a tainted point of view can disrupt the joy one gets playing a brute with psychopathic tendencies in a game with above mediocre combat mechanics and utterly stunning presentation. On top of that the messages which are deemed good are done so not because of their entertainment (i.e. artistic) value, but their morality (i.e. "artistic") value (based on largely christian-inherited pacifist ideas in this case).

I've always been under the impression GoW was designed to appeal to xtreeme 14-year-old boys.

Not trying to be an asshole, I'm being honest.

The male 18-35 demographic and anything those guys like the 14 year olds also going to like.

 

[Zekes!]

It wasn't something that bothered me even 5 years ago, and it's not like I am disturbed by them now I just have zero desire to spend my time doing such disgusting things.

Pretty much. I mean, from time to time I still find myself having a desire to play those kind of games (earlier today, for example, I was thinking of replaying MadWorld), but the general appeal of them has lowered greatly.

 

[ctrayne]

.

 

[FieryBalrog]

It's not like the "story" of God of War is worth monkey balls. And it's graced by some of the most awful voice acting.

 

[mysteriousmage09]

I've always been under the impression GoW was designed to appeal to xtreeme 14-year-old boys.

Not trying to be an asshole, I'm being honest. I didn't think the series had an adult audience.

So the same fanbase as CoD, Halo, Gears, etc.?

 

[Treemonkeys]

It's not like the "story" of God of War is worth monkey balls. And it's graced by some of the most awful voice acting.

Which is why it seems like tasteless and mindless violence to me, not something I enjoy.

 

[ctrayne]

.

 

[nib95]

So the same fanbase as CoD, Halo, Gears, etc.?

Basically. Hence chainsawing dudes in half through the ass and curb stomping etc.

 

[Future]

It's not like the "story" of God of War is worth monkey balls. And it's graced by some of the most awful voice acting.

God of war 1 story wasn't too bad

 

[Treemonkeys]

Basically. Hence chainsawing dudes in half through the ass and curb stomping etc.

The multiplayer sure but the single player has depth to it at least, Gears of War is Shakespeare when sitting next to God of War.

 

[rdrr gnr]

I can't really say, I don't play any of those games aside from a tiny bit of CoD now and then.

I'm not an expert, just saying that from my point of view, I had the impression that GoW was aimed squarely at the high-school crowd. Gore on that level has always seemed like something that appealed to teenage boys more than anyone else.

What's the implication here? That someone's potential interest is deemed low-brow or unbecoming?

 

[nib95]

The multiplayer sure but the single player has depth to it at least, Gears of War is Shakespeare when sitting next to God of War.

Really not a fan of the franchise are you? Lol.

 

[Riposte]

I can't really say, I don't play any of those games aside from a tiny bit of CoD now and then.

I'm not an expert, just saying that from my point of view, I had the impression that GoW was aimed squarely at the high-school crowd.

You know, you are being very transparent in your attempt to put down people who enjoy God of War. The whole "I'm ignorant so sorry if I step on any toes" bit doesn't really work with a game that has had thousands of posts (outside the OTs) dedicated on GAF and is a multi-million franchise (you'd also have to avoid all other sorts of videogame media, like websites, podcasts, etc). (I'm mean really lol, if you think about it that's quite some bullshit you are trying to pull.)

 

[ctrayne]

.

 

[nib95]

You know, you are being very transparent in your attempt to put down people who enjoy God of War. The whole "I'm ignorant so sorry if I step on any toes" bit doesn't really work with a game that has had thousands of posts (outside the OTs) dedicated on GAF and is a multi-million franchise.

Pretty much. Also, you have to be pretty daft to think an 18 rated game is aimed squarely at 14 year olds lol. Personally, when I was younger, I was more squeamish than I am today. You desensitise as you get older and with the more you see.