• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

1Up: Why Japanese Games are Breaking Up With the West

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Derrick01 said:
I bolded the ones I either finished or put a decent amount of time into. Didn't like any of them one bit. They just don't offer me the type of satisfaction that I get from western games, and quite a few on that list suffer from that unbearable anime syndrome which doesn't help me get into it.

So if you didn't like any of them at all, why did you finish or put a decent amount of time into them? So you can troll Japanese games on Neogaf? I've played through a ton of games, some amazing, some very meh, but there are very few I can think of that had absolutely nothing redeeming about them (Jade Empire or Fugitive Hunter maybe?).

ctrayne said:
The Thief and Deus Ex series would like to have a word with you, as they suffer from none of those generalizations and are largely brilliant. There's plenty more too, but I don't want to turn this into a boxing match. I also think you're being harsh on Western devs. Look at the big picture, just like you did with your own list of Japanese games. It's just as easy to ignore the great Western games as it is to ignore the Front Mission 1-5s/Xanadu Nexts/Demons Souls of Japan. If you're looking for stuff to hate, you'll find it. The opposite is true too, though - lots to love if you're looking to enjoy yourself.

Yes, I'll admit I'm pretty harsh on western developers... I see it as necessary to counter-balance all the "westaboos" that are in the videogame press and fanbase nowadays and to preserve the style of gaming I like. Most of the western games I like/find innovative and unique... are classic PC titles, obscure old PC titles, or indie titles. Then again, I think the people who say Japanese games aren't innovating/progressing this gen aren't the people looking at either the niche Japanese titles (like I mentioned above), nor are they looking at the niche/indie western titles.
 
Parallax Scroll said:
a thread about moe and barely any pics

smh gaf
10er3bm.png
 

Derrick01

Banned
djtiesto said:
So if you didn't like any of them at all, why did you finish or put a decent amount of time into them? So you can troll Japanese games on Neogaf? I've played through a ton of games, some amazing, some very meh, but there are very few I can think of that had absolutely nothing redeeming about them (Jade Empire or Fugitive Hunter maybe?).

I finish everything I play unless it's really unbearable. Don't know why you're suggesting I'm trolling, are you a troll for hating western games?
 

spirity

Member
I yearn for the day we can put our cultural differences aside, and embrace dudemoe games.

I'm picturing Sgt Storme Cannonhand, a jaded war weary vet hellbent on vengeance. With him is his favourite weapon, the Cannon Bow, which tranforms into a gorgeous chicken with a big fat head (a bit like the Mekon, only yellow. And kawaii as fuck). They traverse the war torn apocalyptic wasteland that looks like its got a piss filter and stuff on it, unlocking characters by throwing metal pipes at their enemies. Which are carrots, bears with bows and drops of water with eyes.

DLC will offer opportunities to dress up the dangerously on edge Cannonhand and take a selection of photos of him in saucy poses. Ooh, cheeky!

Pairing the minds of Horii and Cliffy B will be a match made in gaming heaven.
 
Derrick01 said:
I finish everything I play unless it's really unbearable. Don't know why you're suggesting I'm trolling, are you a troll for hating western games?

You're clearly more open-minded than the rest of the JP game haters, but that doesn't mean you should play games you don't like. While I do think most people shouldn't dismiss all Japanese games, there are some that just can't get into any just like someone like me can't get into more than 3 or so western games per generation.
 
zoner said:
Yakuza is not just 'a success'. It's one of the biggest franchises in all of Japan.
No it isn't. It's a consistent success, but not anywhere near what the biggest Japanese games sell. Honestly, I don't think think it even makes to top 20 in terms of current series.
 
Dunan said:
I wouldn't go that far; the number of older gamers is a lot more than "few", even on consoles, and while they're more accepting of tropey teenage protagonists than older Western gamers are, it's more of a resigned acceptance than an active desire.

Then again, Taro Yokoo exemplified the teenage-boy-worship when, in directing Nier, he had a mini-hissy fit when the other directors wanted an older protagonist. Having played Nier, I can think of arguments for the boy hero, but Yokoo certainly didn't make them -- he figuratively stamped his feet while saying, "But this is an RPG! The hero has to be a young boy!"

Hiroyuki Ito summed up my desires (as a 30-year-old) perfectly in a post-FFXII interview when he said that his focus was on the older fans who might have drifted away from the FF series (because he knows that SE has been alienating them) and how he wanted to make a game that both young and old could enjoy. Reading between the lines, you could see where SE thwarted some of his plans in favor of younger-fan-favoring ideas.

(Question for under-20 readers: did you find FFXII "too grown-up" in any way? Was its relative (relative!) sophistication off-putting at all? Somehow I doubt it, and that any negative feelings towards this kind of game by the younger crowd are dwarfed by the negativity toward childish FFXIII by the older crowd. What say you?)

I'm confident that Japanese producers will break out of the seventeen-year-old-boy-hero trope pretty soon. They're going to have to -- if births peaked in 1974, and the average age of marriage is 29-30 (as I think it is in urban Japan these days), and the conventional wisdom is that only young single guys get to play console games and have to trade them in for work-commute handhelds when they get married, then the biggest potential fan base went into permanent decline in 2003-04, when this cohort turned 30. The number of teens/20s people in Japan has declined every year since, and will keep declining for at least 20 years into the future, because there are even fewer toddlers and babies around now.

Demographics was one factor behind the surge in brain-training games a few years ago -- people pushing 40 and seeing their first gray hairs and wanting to stay sharp. You see 40-ish people of both sexes with DSes and PSPs on the train all the time.

I'm left hoping that the Vita can be the bridge: console-level graphics on a machine small enough to carry around. Eventually the Vita will get a TV-out and we'll have a good compromise: Dad can play the cross-generational AAA games made by people like Ito and Matsuno on the train every day and occasionally sneak in a session on the big screen. Each additional rumor of PS and PS2 ports to the Vita further convince me that the generation who played those 10-15 years ago will want to come back and play them again, and that the Vita will do pretty well.

Hear hear! Especially the bolded; the article hints at the slow, unending erosion of native game sales over there that started EXACTLY in 2003.

It means anything resembling anime in any way, be it the characters, story, etc. That alone makes it extremely hard for me to even attempt to play just about every jrpg nowadays.

Odd, I only have an intolerance for ones where the tropes use them, not vice versa. Seriously? Not even DS? :p

Dudemoe. YES.

Oh GOD, so wrong yet so funny.
 

Derrick01

Banned
SatelliteOfLove said:
Odd, I only have an intolerance for ones where the tropes use them, not vice versa. Seriously? Not even DS? :p

I'm guessing that means demon's souls? Nah that game was pretty free of any japanese stuff that I can pick out immediately, but I still found the game to be boring. The difficulty was a little overhyped and I found that even when I was succeeding and killing bosses somewhat easily, I still wasn't feeling anything. It's a shame because I normally like fighting giant bosses and western games don't do that enough.
 
Derrick01 said:
It means anything resembling anime in any way, be it the characters, story, etc. That alone makes it extremely hard for me to even attempt to play just about every jrpg nowadays.

I guess if I had an irrational hatred for all Hollywood films, then I guess I wouldn't enjoy most American games either. You can add in most European games to that too, since these days most of them try to pass off as American products.
 

Wazzim

Banned
Eastern-Europe is the new Japan, they put out numerous quality games every year.

Neon_Icarus said:
I guess if I had an irrational hatred for all Hollywood films, then I guess I wouldn't enjoy most American games either. You can add in most European games to that too, since these days most of them try to pass off as American products.
I don't know about that, European games are still different then US ones. Heavy Rain, LBP and PGR feel very 'European' to me, from the music to the concepts.
 
I think the concept of Moe is stupid. I cringe at lolicon. I think modern, mainstream anime tropes are ridiculous. I still love me some Japanese games.

Does it bother you Western/PC GAF, that I think this:

Ni-no-Kuni_06.jpg


is infinitely more appealing than this:

mass-effect-3.jpg
 
Derrick01 said:
I'm guessing that means demon's souls? Nah that game was pretty free of any japanese stuff that I can pick out immediately, but I still found the game to be boring. The difficulty was a little overhyped and I found that even when I was succeeding and killing bosses somewhat easily, I still wasn't feeling anything. It's a shame because I normally like fighting giant bosses and western games don't do that enough.

Cool, cool. You don't hate, just no love for whatever reason. I'm down.
 

Wazzim

Banned
TSA said:
I think the concept of Moe is stupid. I cringe at lolicon. I think modern, mainstream anime tropes are ridiculous. I still love me some Japanese games.

Does it bother you Western/PC GAF, that I think this:
is infinitely more appealing than this:
It's more appealing but at least ME is coming out here.
 
zoner said:
Why are you looking at games only for the 4th place platform to reference "biggest franchises in all of Japan"?

If not even cracking 600k per installment qualified for that, then Japan really would be in trouble...
 
zoner said:
Another Note about this list: call of duty black ops was released with a dub and subbed version, if you add thoese up it had more then 350k sales, add in another 70k for the 360 versions and you get 420k, add in another 16k for the Budget release starting last week and you get 436k, making it in the top 15 hd games sold this generation.
 

TheChaos

Member
Honestly, if the Japanese don't want to branch out to Western games it's their loss.

I think that Western devs lately have really caught up with what the Japanese did during the SNES/PS1 days on consoles. Stuff like platformers, racing games, rhythm games, etc. (Excluding Fighting games, that's one genre Western Devs have yet to figure out. Wonder why?)
 

Busaiku

Member
InfiniteNine said:
That is entirely up to whoever views Luka in that light.
People need to understand that absolutely anything can be moe.
Just depends on the person.

Not everything is loli though.
 
LosDaddie said:
Why would your opinion bother anybody?

Pretty much the point I was making. The article's an opinion. Who cares? People have been saying this crap about Japanese games and how Japan can't make good games any more for years. Then they seem to forget about Nintendo or one of several other great selling Japanese games here in North America. Then they throw them into some arbitrary group to remedy their oversight.

Edit: Then I realized I review games for GT, and people weren't too happy with some of my reviews, like the more recent Ico/SotC or Disgaea 4 review. So, I guess my opinion will always bother somebody. I'll just have to learn to deal with it.
 

Zeal

Banned
TSA said:
I think the concept of Moe is stupid. I cringe at lolicon. I think modern, mainstream anime tropes are ridiculous. I still love me some Japanese games.

Does it bother you Western/PC GAF, that I think this:

Ni-no-Kuni_06.jpg


is infinitely more appealing than this:

mass-effect-3.jpg

WE WILL FIND YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. NO ESCAPE.
 

richiek

steals Justin Bieber DVDs
scosher said:
My 2c:

Western gaming tastes have always diverged from that of Japan. It's not really a recent trend. It's just more prominent now because back in the 8-bit/16-bit era, the hardware of consoles was so limited that developers had to draw cutesy 2D sprites with overt expressions to best display their emotions. That art style only added to the charm and humor of those games, such as FF6 and Chrono Trigger. However, if you look at the PC gaming scene back then in the 90's, which was immensely more popular than consoles at the time, Western gamers nonetheless preferred more gritty and realistic experiences, such as Wolfenstein, Baldur's Gate, Myst, and later CounterStrike. Hell, even on the console, games like Mortal Kombat were huge sellers in the States compared to Japan.


I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you on PC gaming being more popular than console gaming in the early 90s. At the time, home PCs were strictly a niche enthusiast audience, before the internet and the World Wide Web made a big splash later in the decade and made having a computer pretty much mandatory. On the other hand, pretty much everyone had a TV, which made the video game console much more popular due to its accessibility and affordability.
 

qq more

Member
TSA said:
I think the concept of Moe is stupid. I cringe at lolicon. I think modern, mainstream anime tropes are ridiculous. I still love me some Japanese games.
Same here. My favorite video game franchises happens to come from Japan (Phoenix Wright, Mega Man and Mario Bros)
 
TSA said:
Pretty much the point I was making. The article's an opinion. Who cares? People have been saying this crap about Japanese games and how Japan can't make good games any more for years. Then they seem to forget about Nintendo or one of several other great selling Japanese games here in North America. Then they throw them into some arbitrary group to remedy their oversight.

Edit: Then I realized I review games for GT, and people weren't too happy with some of my reviews, like the more recent Ico/SotC or Disgaea 4 review. So, I guess my opinion will always bother somebody. I'll just have to learn to deal with it
.

So you are the heathen!! We found him...OFF WITH HIS HEAD. That'll teach you for not liking what I like.

Lucky guy having that nice ass job
 

OceanBlue

Member
The amusing thing is that the article almost completely outlines this thread. Both started with people indicating that the West and Japan have differing management issues (although it was only a few people if I remember correctly) and transition into Japanese games and moe, defining moe, establishing that "moe" games are for a niche group of players, and going into Japanese mindsets regarding gaming (although this topic was discussed somewhat concurrently with defining moe and establishing that moe was a niche market).
 

Azar

Member
TSA said:
Pretty much the point I was making. The article's an opinion. Who cares? People have been saying this crap about Japanese games and how Japan can't make good games any more for years. Then they seem to forget about Nintendo or one of several other great selling Japanese games here in North America. Then they throw them into some arbitrary group to remedy their oversight.
You're dumbing down the content of the article by equating it to your opinion that Ni no Kuni is more appealing than Mass Effect 2. It's about cultural differences and consumer markets as much as art styles. The gaming age group/demographic comparison alone is a big deal for the kinds of games the Japanese industry will be making going forward.
 

Derrick01

Banned
TSA said:
I think the concept of Moe is stupid. I cringe at lolicon. I think modern, mainstream anime tropes are ridiculous. I still love me some Japanese games.

Does it bother you Western/PC GAF, that I think this:

Ni-no-Kuni_06.jpg


is infinitely more appealing than this:

mass-effect-3.jpg

No I think that looks better too, and the ME franchise is awful now.

But I'm pretty sure that first game is a jrpg, which sadly means I'll probably never play it. That is some top notch artwork though.

edit: ME1 did have some amazing art work though.
 

zeelman

Member
The first pic looks like anime characters running around in an area from WoW, and that Mass Effect pic is clearly CG. I'm not exactly sure what the point of that comparison is.
 

OceanBlue

Member
Azar said:
You're dumbing down the content of the article by equating it to your opinion that Ni no Kuni is more appealing than Mass Effect 2. It's about cultural differences and consumer markets as much as art styles. The gaming age group/demographic comparison alone is a big deal for the kinds of games the Japanese industry will be making going forward.
Just out of curiosity, do people think that Japan is making more otaku-centric games? I'm not really knowledgeable about this, but I've always gotten the impression that the people making otaku-centric games are the same people who have been making the same games for a while now.
 
Azar said:
You're dumbing down the content of the article by equating it to your opinion that Ni no Kuni is more appealing than Mass Effect 2. It's about cultural differences and consumer markets as much as art styles. The gaming age group/demographic comparison alone is a big deal for the kinds of games the Japanese industry will be making going forward.

You're making a bigger deal out of the article than what it really is. This argument has been made before, it will be made again, and quite honestly, anyone trying to cram the explanation into a small online article is "dumbing down" the argument. If you really want to get into this type of study, then go beyond simple musing and hearsay. Trying to toss around results from Google search and Wikipedia and your own experiences is amateur hour. Come back when you've done some real research.

zeelman said:
The first pic looks like anime characters running around in an area from WoW, and that Mass Effect pic is clearly CG. I'm not exactly sure what the point of that comparison is.

Art styles/direction. I was simply stating Ni No Kuni is more appealing to me visually than ME3 (CG, in-game, whatever).
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Wazzim said:
Eastern-Europe is the new Japan, they put out numerous quality games every year.


I don't know about that, European games are still different then US ones. Heavy Rain, LBP and PGR feel very 'European' to me, from the music to the concepts.

Eastern European games have the heart, but they lack the polish (no pun intended) of some of the finer Japanese games. Buggy, janky, sluggish, broken combat/gameplay systems... but they have some fine ideas. That being said, I enjoyed the few Eastern Euro games I've played more than many comparable American/Western Euro titles...

As far as the west goes, I've always liked what came out of France... Ninokuni aesthetically is my dream game... cel-shaded Studio Ghibli <3
 

zeelman

Member
TSA said:
Art styles/direction. I was simply stating Ni No Kuni is more appealing to me visually than ME3 (CG, in-game, whatever).

I kinda figured that. You could used a better picture of Ni No Kuni, though. It looks so much better then that. :)
 
djtiesto said:
Count me as one of the people who find Japanese games vastly more interesting and captivating than American/Western ones.

*long rant*
Did you just troll the fuck out of Western games, then complain about "trolling" when someone responded?

Nice.
 
Neon_Icarus said:
Just look at that list. Only a few established franchises and a bunch of niche games are not enough to compete with well established names like Nintendo and Sony. If you think those are enough, you are seriously underestimating the Japanese consumers.

Not to mention the fact that many of those were later ported over to the PS3.

EDIT: And let me just add that those games did have an effect, since the 360 sold considerably better than it's predecessor did. (At least it did when the exclusives were still coming.)



People ignore most of those games because they do not push tech, because they are not on the HD consoles/PC.
Judging from your posts, you seem like a Japanese expert.
 
djtiesto said:
Count me as one of the people who find Japanese games vastly more interesting and captivating than American/Western ones. It's the fact that many non-Indie westerngames use bland and overly realistic artstyles, and the fact that the western games increasingly become homogenized - one dev decides that "red shit all over the screen when you are dying" is cool, every other dev apes that... one dev has a hit with a cover-based shooter, suddenly cover-shooting is in every game, even where they are obviously out of place. It makes nearly every big-budget western game seem to be like I'm playing the exact same thing, and the obsession with aping Hollywood makes things worse - even the stories and music feel so tired. Luckily, the west has a great indie scene that avoids lots of these pitfalls.

Sounds like the perfect description of a modern "AAA"-title.
 
Top Bottom