• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

2011 NBA Offseason Thread |OT2| The 2K servers are back, baby, they back!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vahagn said:
Surprised?

I found it hilarious all along that people actually thought Mike Brown had no offensive playcalling abilities. He's from Pop's staff...Pop is the single best play designer in the league, except maybe Carlisle now.


I remember Rich Bucher a couple years ago on the Simmons podcast talking about Lebron constantly ignoring the plays Brown drew up and just doing 1-4 High isolations or wing PnR's. Simmons didn't believe him and thought it was just bad coaching by Brown.


It was pretty clear all along that Mike Brown had to have a more complicated and intricate offense than what the Cavs were running day to day. I'd say the same of Spoelstra. But unlike Phil and Riley who had moderate success in getting their stars to stick to the offensive game plans, Brown and Spoelstra had NO success. Well, that's a lie, I distinctly remember the Heat's offense being MUCH more fluid a few years ago than last season...I wonder why
Mike Brown really isn't a good coach. At all. Remember some of the line-ups he tried to throw at BOS? He also has admitted his flaws in offensive play-calling. Im sure you've seen that gif of him against the magic.

The only reason the Lakers have a decent chance this year is because of the defensive mindstate he will bring, especially considering they still start two 7 footers. Offense will be no problem with kobe running the show, unless of course he chucks it up.
 
Kevin Durant said:
Kobe, Lebron, and Wade are probably 1A, 1B, and 1C in the league...those guys are just another level from everybody else.
So what does that make the guy who beat all three of them? Oh and you too.
 
Branduil said:
So what does that make the guy who beat all three of them? Oh and you too.
He already said he isn't on their level, but working to get there.

Didn't say anything about Dirk, he wasn't asked about him.
 
(07:43:39pm) --» Tony_Parker (Tony_Parke@dork-ECC6B3D7.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined (#nba-age)
(07:43:49pm) (Tony_Parker) yooooooo this knicks/heat game is godlike
(07:44:09pm) (Tony_Parker) Knicks up 1 in the 4th
(07:44:14pm) «-- Tony_Parker (Tony_Parke@dork-ECC6B3D7.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has parted (#nba-age)

:(
 
Vahagn said:
I agree with this sentiment completely. Kobe can be 1C it doesn't matter. But what those 3 guys have that Carmelo, JJ and Durant don't have is their Defense, but more importantly, their ability to run the team.


They've shown that they can run the offense and be trusted to alternate from scoring to distributing without needing an actual PG alongside them to do the job. Carmelo, Pierce, Durant etc. aren't the type of guys you can run the offense through for 82 games a season.


While I love Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, or Derrick Rose...I fundamentally believe that a total package wing in this league is more important than a total package big man and a total package PG.


Unless that total package big man is Timmy...but that's not happening again for a LONGGGGGG time.

Yea, I'm still waiting to see who will actually step it up from the young bigs.
 
Branduil said:
So what does that make the guy who beat all three of them? Oh and you too.


I don't think anyone believes Dirk is the best player in the league. That being said, he was the rightful MVP this season, I was saying that right after the Mavs went 2-7 without him...he did play better than all 3 of them in the playoffs and had a fucking amazing postseason run, and he's clearly the best PF in the league and all talk of Pau Gasol being better than him was a fucking joke even in 2009 and 2010.


Still not the best player in the league though...imagine how good Durant would be if Kidd was running that team instead of WhynotBrook lol.


ryutaro's mama said:
There's this guy in LA...hails from OKC...


Agree completely, he should be the next best PF in about 2 years tops. All the current crop of great PF's are old and I feel like he's got something that Dwight doesn't, mentally.
 
giri said:
He already said he isn't on their level, but working to get there.

Didn't say anything about Dirk, he wasn't asked about him.
Well unless he has a 1AAA level it's safe to assume he's saying Dirk is not on their level, which really doesn't make any sense.
Vahagn said:
I don't think anyone believes Dirk is the best player in the league. That being said, he was the rightful MVP this season, I was saying that right after the Mavs went 2-7 without him...he did play better than all 3 of them in the playoffs and had a fucking amazing postseason run, and he's clearly the best PF in the league and all talk of Pau Gasol being better than him was a fucking joke even in 2009 and 2010.


Still not the best player in the league though...imagine how good Durant would be if Kidd was running that team instead of WhynotBrook lol.
Without getting into any all-time nonsense, Dirk was the best player in the league last year. He took a team with no other all-stars, just a lot of good-to-middling role players, and beat multiple teams with multiple all-stars and several of the best players in the league. And none of the series even went to seven games, they only played 21 games in 4 rounds. They swept the defending champions, culminating in a laugher where they blew them out of the arena.
 
iamshadowlark said:
Mike Brown really isn't a good coach. At all. Remember some of the line-ups he tried to throw at BOS? He also has admitted his flaws in offensive play-calling. Im sure you've seen that gif of him against the magic.

The only reason the Lakers have a decent chance this year is because of the defensive mindstate he will bring, especially considering they still start two 7 footers. Offense will be no problem with kobe running the show, unless of course he chucks it up.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with the Brown hire. You need to know how to manage egos in LA, and Brown can't. But the Cleveland situation wasn't so much his lack of offense as it was Lebron's stupidity (and on court brilliance).


I can practically GUARANTEE that the Lakers will have a more fluid offense in their first year under Brown, then the Cavs had in their 4th year under Brown.

I am excited about defense though. I know Kobe will buy in, let's hope everyone else does.
 
Branduil said:
Well unless he has a 1AAA level it's safe to assume he's saying Dirk is not on their level, which really doesn't make any sense.

Without getting into any all-time nonsense, Dirk was the best player in the league last year. He took a team with no other all-stars, just a lot of good-to-middling role players, and beat multiple teams with multiple all-stars and several of the best players in the league. And none of the series even went to seven games, they only played 21 games in 4 rounds. They swept the defending champions, culminating in a laugher where they blew them out of the arena.

you can stop trying to make it sound more heroic. you make it sound like he won it all by himself when really, he had his ass bailed out for much of the game by jason terry and shawn marion on several nights in the finals

he was on the best team. not the best player.
 
Branduil said:
Well unless he has a 1AAA level it's safe to assume he's saying Dirk is not on their level, which really doesn't make any sense.

Without getting into any all-time nonsense, Dirk was the best player in the league last year. He took a team with no other all-stars, just a lot of good-to-middling role players, and beat multiple teams with multiple all-stars and several of the best players in the league. And none of the series even went to seven games, they only played 21 games in 4 rounds.



I've been on the Dirk Bandwagon forever...I love the guy and hold him up in high regard. But Dirk can't run a team, and he can't be trusted to defend multiple positions to get a stop. He's the most lethal scorer (when his efficiency is taken into account) and he's devastatingly clutch, that's the reason they won.


Many of the games the Mavs won were close and could have gone either way, he took the team on his back and took over. But that's easier when you don't have to run the offense for 3 quarters and can just stand in your spot and score. He was the rightful MVP last season so I don't mind saying he was the best last season...but he's got duties the rest of the 3 don't have. Unless you want Mario Chalmers or Derek Fisher to run your offense


And I'll put this out here so that no one tries to talk against it. Kobe's led his team in assists every season he's been a starter except the one that Gary Payton was on the team and the season where Rudy T coached. Kobe RUNS the triangle offense, always has.
 
ph33nix said:
you can stop trying to make it sound more heroic. you make it sound like he won it all by himself when really, he had his ass bailed out for much of the game by jason terry and shawn marion on several nights in the finals

he was on the best team. not the best player.
Uh, he averaged 28 points on a TS% of 61% in the playoffs last year. Even in the Finals game where he shot badly he easily outplayed Wade and Lebron in the 4th quarters.

Besides, great players make other players better even when they're not shooting well.
 
Vahagn said:
I've been on the Dirk Bandwagon forever...I love the guy and hold him up in high regard. But Dirk can't run a team, and he can't be trusted to defend multiple positions to get a stop. He's the most lethal scorer (when his efficiency is taken into account) and he's devastatingly clutch, that's the reason they won.


Many of the games the Mavs won were close and could have gone either way, he took the team on his back and took over. But that's easier when you don't have to run the offense for 3 quarters and can just stand in your spot and score. He was the rightful MVP last season so I don't mind saying he was the best last season...but he's got duties the rest of the 3 don't have. Unless you want Mario Chalmers or Derek Fisher to run your offense


And I'll put this out here so that no one tries to talk against it. Kobe's led his team in assists every season he's been a starter except the one that Gary Payton was on the team and the season where Rudy T coached. Kobe RUNS the triangle offense, always has.
Well, the guys who can give you offense like Dirk and also play amazing defense can be counted on one hand. In the history of the game. Without the thumb.

No, he doesn't run the offense or get a ton of assists. But even though he doesn't run the offense, it's obvious the offense still runs through him. He gets a lot of hockey assists because of the nature of where he plays in the post. I mean the Mavs lost in 06 and 07 partially because he couldn't play in the post and now he's one of the best post players in the league. He developed that just in the last few years.

Kobe is obviously the focus of the triangle, but I think that team is at its best when the offense runs through Gasol first and he's not being Gasoft.
 
Tyson Chandler was pretty amazing last year, but Terry and Matrix still had a lot issues and guys like Barea, Peja, and Kidd only did anything in the playoffs because the defense was completely focused on Dirk (and for good reason, he was unstoppable one-on-one)
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Tyson Chandler was pretty amazing last year, but Terry and Matrix still had a lot issues and guys like Barea, Peja, and Kidd only did anything in the playoffs because the defense was completely focused on Dirk (and for good reason, he was unstoppable one-on-one)
The thing is that the Mavs could win because they had so many decent players you just needed a couple different ones to really step up each time. Like, Barea still had a bunch of games where he just played like garbage last year, you just don't remember it because he had a few games against the Lakers and Heat where he scored a bunch of times.
 
Branduil said:
Well, the guys who can give you offense like Dirk and also play amazing defense can be counted on one hand. In the history of the game. Without the thumb.

No, he doesn't run the offense or get a ton of assists. But even though he doesn't run the offense, it's obvious the offense still runs through him. He gets a lot of hockey assists because of the nature of where he plays in the post. I mean the Mavs lost in 06 and 07 partially because he couldn't play in the post and now he's one of the best post players in the league. He developed that just in the last few years.

Kobe is obviously the focus of the triangle, but I think that team is at its best when the offense runs through Gasol first and he's not being Gasoft.


The offense runs through him the way it runs through Gasol, but even when it's running through Gasol, Kobe's RUNNING the offense. Wade was running the offense even when it was running through Shaq and Kidd's running the offense when it's running through Dirk.

Dirk needs a great PG or a good PG or someone like Wade or Kobe to run the offense. It can run through him in the post much like what the triangle offense utilizes, but the perimeter player still has to run it. In the case of Kobe, he plays the post and the perimeter.


Having a lethel scorer who's 6'4-6'8, who can also run the offense so that he's a threat with the ball in his hands to score or to facilitate and defend multiple positions is a rarity. So is Dirk, and that's why I feel comfortable saying Dirk is RIGHT BEHIND Kobe/Bron/Wade.


Dirk ain't no Timmy-in-his-prime now either, let's get that clear.


Edit: If LA runs the team through Gasol for 20 games, he'll get worn out, tear his hamstring, and suck for 2 months straight. We've tried that, Phil puts a slightly bigger load on him, and he falls apart in a month. People need to calm the fuck down about efficiency, some guys can shoulder the load of a team and some guys can't, Gasol can't.
 
ryutaro's mama said:
First year, playa.

Talk to me in 2 years if LMA is still housing Blake.
It was the way it happened. Shoulder in chest + length shouldn't be that much of a neutralizer. He should get better though...
 
Vahagn said:
The offense runs through him the way it runs through Gasol, but even when it's running through Gasol, Kobe's RUNNING the offense. Wade was running the offense even when it was running through Shaq and Kidd's running the offense when it's running through Dirk.

Dirk needs a great PG or a good PG or someone like Wade or Kobe to run the offense. It can run through him in the post much like what the triangle offense utilizes, but the perimeter player still has to run it. In the case of Kobe, he plays the post and the perimeter.


Having a lethel scorer who's 6'4-6'8, who can also run the offense so that he's a threat with the ball in his hands to score or to facilitate and defend multiple positions is a rarity. So is Dirk, and that's why I feel comfortable saying Dirk is RIGHT BEHIND Kobe/Bron/Wade.


Dirk ain't no Timmy-in-his-prime now either, let's get that clear.
Big men just can't run an offense in general, it's the nature of where they play. I'm not saying those other guys are not valuable, but even so, multiple versions of them exist in the league right now. There are no other versions of Dirk, he's the only PF in the league who can play like that. Yes, you need a PG to get him the ball, but there's no other player in the league right now who I would choose to take the last shot in a game, or pass if necessary.
 
DY_nasty said:
It was the way it happened. Shoulder in chest + length shouldn't be that much of a neutralizer. He should get better though...

I think he will get better.

That first season was just brute force.

Next season he should start to add a bit to his game (back to the basket, drop step, etc.) and but the end of year 3, he should be a legitimate beast.
 
Branduil said:
Big men just can't run an offense in general, it's the nature of where they play. I'm not saying those other guys are not valuable, but even so, multiple versions of them exist in the league right now

3 of them exist, and they're the 3 best players in the league...and that's why


Vahagn said:
I fundamentally believe that a total package wing in this league is more important than a total package big man or a total package PG.


Unless that total package big man is Timmy...but that's not happening again for a LONGGGGGG time.


Branduil said:
but there's no other player in the league right now who I would choose to take the last shot in a game, or pass if necessary.


After what he did in the Finals, I have to agree with you. I'd still take Kobe, but that's for blind loyalty more than anything else. And for the record, Kobe played against you guys in the playoffs, and he played efficiently, everyone else around him collapsed. Pretty much what happened in 2003 after trying to make the Finals 4 times in a row then too. That's why you can run a team through Kobe, he never collapses.
 
Vahagn said:
3 of them exist, and they're the 3 best players in the league...and that's why








After what he did in the Finals, I have to agree with you. I'd still take Kobe, but that's for blind loyalty more than anything else. And for the record, Kobe played against you guys in the playoffs, and he played efficiently, everyone else around him collapsed. Pretty much what happened in 2003 after trying to make the Finals 4 times in a row then too. That's why you can run a team through Kobe, he never collapses.
Wings aren't bigmen.

Bigs are 4's and 5's.
 
giri said:
Wings aren't bigmen.

Bigs are 4's and 5's.


I bolded the wrong part. That "3" of them exist was a response to


Branduil said:
I'm not saying those other guys are not valuable, but even so, multiple versions of them exist in the league right now

Wings are 2's and 3's...Big's 4's 5's i know this lol
 
Kanter says the three guys who advised him recently were Tyson Chandler and Danny Granger.


That may be the most random group of mentors for a young player ever.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Kanter says the three guys who advised him recently were Tyson Chandler and Danny Granger.


That may be the most random group of mentors for a young player ever.
Which one advised him tiwce?
 
I'm just curious. Ginobli runs the spurs and I always felt gasols effect was massive hyperbole. Diaw probably could if he wasn't so fat. Noah actually does a great job of it... I can see Monroe taking over in Detroit. Hibbert has the same potential.

Just wondering
 
anyone find the people from these occupy protest things deeply embarrassing

like, damn

looking at them i feel like mayor quimby at the swap meet

i need a drink and a showa
 
giri said:
Which one advised him tiwce?


I put three because I misread the Salt Lake Tribune Twitter feed that Rubio was advising Kanter as well (which would be even stranger) and then forgot to change three to two.


edit: Noah is a really bad offensive player. There's no point in helping on him since he can't score efficiently so it's basically impossible to create looks for others. On the other hand, Gasol scores efficiently and can create his own shot so his passing ability does allow him to run an offense to a major degree.
 
DY_nasty said:
I'm just curious. Ginobli runs the spurs and I always felt gasols effect was massive hyperbole. Diaw probably could if he wasn't so fat. Noah actually does a great job of it... I can see Monroe taking over in Detroit. Hibbert has the same potential.

Just wondering
just wondering what?

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I put three because I misread the Salt Lake Tribune Twitter feed that Rubio was advising Kanter as well (which would be even stranger) and then forgot to change three to two.


edit: Noah is a really bad offensive player. There's no point in helping on him since he can't score efficiently so it's basically impossible to create looks for others. On the other hand, Gasol scores efficiently and can create his own shot so his passing ability does allow him to run an offense to a major degree.


As if reply to my troll, you should know better by now.

Also, noah is a really good distributor / passer.

He can't score or create, but if you're coming off the screens correctly, he can make that pass to your sweet spot.
 
On Wednesday, 16-year NBA veteran Jerry Stackhouse, who most recently had a cup of coffee with the Miami Heat in 2010-2011, torched Fisher in a ESPN radio interview, delivering arguably the harshest critique of the union president to date.

"Not to say anything against Derek Fisher, it's not that I don't think he's a great guy," Stackhouse said, "But I don't want him negotiating my contract. I want an agent who knows the lingo negotiating my contract. Derek Fisher, he doesn't negotiate his own contract. He has an agent. So why would I want him negotiating something even bigger than his contract? This [Collective Bargaining Agreement] is something more important to everybody."

If that wasn't clear enough for you, Stackhouse went on to leave no doubt that he feels Fisher is outmatched in the current negotiation.

"David Stern, he's made this league what it is," Stackhouse said. "He's one of the greatest commissioners in sports. He's got that title, he's got the NBA at the place where it is because he's a shrewd businessman and knows how to work his way, play the media, play things up to get what he wants. We don't do that. Players are emotional. Players get emotional. So no, I don't necessarily, particularly want Derek Fisher or any of the executive committee negotiating a contract for me."

While Stackhouse sounded reluctant to outright accuse Fisher of disloyalty to his members, he clearly left the possibility open.

"I don't know [if Derek met with the NBA]," Stackhouse said. "I would hope not. I don't think Derek is that kind of guy from what I've seen. But at the same time, he does have aspirations to possibly be a G.M. one day. If he can be the guy to bring the sides together in whatever way, maybe there would be an oppportunity for him to be a G.M. I'm not saying that he has an ulterior motive but the possibility lies there."

If there was a silver lining for Fisher, it was that Stackhouse's frustration with the NBPA pre-dated Fisher's tenure as president, which began in 2006.

"Over the course of my career, the last 16 years, it seems like the executive committee is always making concessions," Stackhouse said. "More concessions, more concessions in each Collective Bargaining Agreement and this is no different. I don't think there's ever been a case where it seems like we have any leverage... We need to have more people who are capable of going toe to toe with David Stern and I just don't think players who spend most of their time playing basketball and Billy Hunter are geared to do that."

Despite airing all of that frustration, Stackhouse said he didn't give much credence to reports that there is a developing rift between Fisher and Hunter.

"I don't think they are necessarily at odds. But I think they are obviously are each feeling different pressures. I can imagine their voicemails are full all the time, text messages all the time about different items, from different players and different representatives... Obviously you're going to butt heads from time to time but I think for the most part both of those guys want to get a deal done."

But unity among the union's leadership isn't enough to convince Stackhouse the NBPA will deliver a good deal for its members.

"I'm not sure they are going about it the right way, of actually getting a good deal done for the players," he said.

.
 
The Jazz showed the Game 6 beatdown of the 88 Lakers as the first game in their classic games series.


I don't know about that choice, it was never really a contest so a lot of the excitement and passion wasn't there. Game did demonstrate pretty excellently though that Magic was a SF and that Stockton was really really great so it had that going for it.
 
giri said:
just wondering what?




As if reply to my troll, you should know better by now.

Also, noah is a really good distributor / passer.

He can't score or create, but if you're coming off the screens correctly, he can make that pass to your sweet spot.
These 3 bigs
 
DY_nasty said:
These 3 bigs
you were wondering what about them?

Monroe, Hibbert, Noah, can the offense go through them?

the only one i know that can distribute is Noah. Haven't seen enough of the other two. But what i saw of Hibbert in that Chicago series was a little.................. disheartening.
 
giri said:
you were wondering what about them?

Monroe, Hibbert, Noah, can the offense go through them?

the only one i know that can distribute is Noah. Haven't seen enough of the other two. But what i saw of Hibbert in that Chicago series was a little.................. disheartening.
Well yeah. Vag said something about three bigs that run offenses. I thought he was actually not trolling for once. But Tim doesn't really run that spurs offense.

I think hibbert can given time. Not yet though. Noah is the key to the bulls offense being efficient. Monroe would be great if Detroit wasn't retarded from top to bottom.
 
DY_nasty said:
Well yeah. Vag said something about three bigs that run offenses. I thought he was actually not trolling for once. But Tim doesn't really run that spurs offense.
He does for stretches, and he might be the best passer on that team. Though to be fair, it's run by pop, just through 1 of their 3 stars.
 
Greg Monroe can't create a shot at this point in his career, his post moves are raw as fuck and he can't shoot at all. He was absolutely abysmal on postups last year.
 
ryutaro's mama said:
I think he will get better.

That first season was just brute force.

Next season he should start to add a bit to his game (back to the basket, drop step, etc.) and but the end of year 3, he should be a legitimate beast.
Just remember this: he's a Clipper.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Greg Monroe can't create a shot at this point in his career, his post moves are raw as fuck and he can't shoot at all. He was absolutely abysmal on postups last year.
Blame it on a retard coach, a cluttered paint, a team-wide lack of passing, and crappy spacing.

Again, I don't know what games you're watching but Monroe actually had a post skillset unlike favors and DMC.
 
He has post moves but they don't work yet, he's going to be really good and was really good in general last year, he just wasn't that good last year at scoring with his back-to-the-basket. He needs to get more polished before he can run an offense.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
He has post moves but they don't work yet, he's going to be really good and was really good in general last year, he just wasn't that good last year at scoring with his back-to-the-basket. He needs to get more polished before he can run an offense.
You gotta take into consideration who he's passing to... and the "fuck it" mentality of his team, the only team to simply not show up in years.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom