Caesar III
Member
All three of them doing this. For all their systems! Can't give you a source, see mewthreeA Twisty Fluken said:
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
2K Boss: Wii Market Is Full Of Crap
- Thread starter Zombie James
- Start date
From a link in this thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ing#Video_and_computer_game_software_failures
Holy hell. Seeing ET in that list along with Psychonauts, Grim Fandango and BG&E is so depressing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ing#Video_and_computer_game_software_failures
Holy hell. Seeing ET in that list along with Psychonauts, Grim Fandango and BG&E is so depressing.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
Caesar III said:
Thanks for the info. My dev is entirely in the finance space, so I truly was curious.
Danthrax said:
Yeah, but that's a different issue. Nothing physically against Wii multi-plat games, but in this case, it doesn't help the Wii standout. I'm just saying that the Wii loses appeal the more you get into gaming.
And if you were to walk into a Gamestop and look at the store shelves, it's just goddamn depressing.
As for Wiiware, I'm talking about shelf presence. I own a bunch of VC and Wiiware titles. But that's a different market as far as I'm concerned in terms of crapware. It's easy to find what you want on the Wiiware store. It'll never go out of stock or be hidden away.
BECAUSE of the volume of crapware on the Wii, stores have to manage how many copies they order of a game and how long to keep them around. Do you really think Sin & Punishment 2 is going to be an easy game to find? Sure, pre-order somewhere and get it, but to walk into a store? You're going to have a tough time. It'll be right between Robby's Bed Time Adventure and The Giggle Factory, both with worse CGI than Max Hedroom.
Read the OP. He's talking about retail presence and right now the Wii is just getting worse and worse as it gets flooded and less appetizing.
Zombie James
Banned
PARANO1A said:
That article is weird...
They needed to sell 1.1 million copies to break even on a $6million budget?
Core gamers have every right to be disappointed with the Wii. It's not for them. But to suggest that the percent of shovelware is remotely relevant to any of us is nonsense. If a game sells well, it will stay on shelves. If it doesn't and you missed it at launch, buy it online.M3wThr33 said:
The only scenario where too much crap on the shelves is really a problem is for casual gamers who buy games by browsing boxart at the store and don't know how to pick out the terrible games, but this is a universal problem. How do you know what movies are good when you go to rent a DVD? People who shop this way also tend to be less picky about quality in the first place, just like casual movie watchers.
M3wThr33 said:
Okay. How much the Wii stands out from the HD twins in terms of its software lineup is a different argument, yeah.
M3wThr33 said:
Honestly, my argument was off-topic because I was responding to aku08 and others who said they hadn't played their Wiis since Galaxy, inferring that nothing worth playing came out on the system at all last year. That's what I argued against.
As far as the OP goes, you're right, WiiWare basically doesn't help or hurt the situation. It may have a small impact if someone is only going to buy one game this month and a really good game comes out on WiiWare. Then WW could be sucking away dollars that third parties in brick-and-mortars are desperately clawing for.
saunderez said:
Given twice the time to work on this, nFusion Interactive could have delivered a solid Unreal-powered shooter, but everything from sound to AI seems to have been rushed for release.
If the single-player campaign isnt painful enough, Hour of Victory offers a multiplayer component so poorly constructed that just trying to shoot another person makes you feel as stupid and incompetent as the games AI. At the very most, Hour of Victory is deserving of Worst Game of the Year honors.
20
X360 Magazine UK
Blimey, it's been a while since we've played something so awful. It really makes you wonder how this got past quality control. [Issue 27, p.98]
-----------------
Ok, I believe those are retail games. Both fit the bill as shovelware and quick cash ins.
I need to walk down to the ps2 section at our local place and take a picture. Two isles of games and maybe 10 or 20 worth buying. The amount of "crap" titles over runneth here in Japan. Unless you like Street Fighter Pachinko/Slots, Yoshinoya Simulators, or Xeno Saga trivia games... then it's all totally rad and I apologize.
Drinky Crow
Banned
he's not addressing the root problem: that the wii hardware is BUILT for crap games, and it takes an extraordinary effort to overcome it. that's what you get when you pair gutless hardware with a novelty controller!
The Hermit
Member
Eurogamer said:
Awesome!
Pureauthor
Member
Is anyone keeping a running tally of how many times people have linked the Eurogamer article?
Meesh
Member
I agree, waaay too many crap titles. Makes the Wii appear even more of a fad and gadget than already perceived by many hard core gamers.
This hurts Wii image, and in my mind, image is still everything. Wii was created image conscious, eliminating the N brand off the little box, slim look, unusual controllers...blah, blah...it's entirely possible that shit games/ports, aided with lack of HD, will tarnish their insanely lucrative business image...
Their only saving grace and Wiis biggest strength so far is it's first party stuff (no surprise) and an unusual, albeit small, collection of third party stuff that blind sided me with average to high quality scores. Games I personally enjoyed, Endless Ocean, NMH, Castlevania Judgement, Rayman Raving Rabbids, RE:UC, RE4, that bitch ass hard MegaMan 9, My Sims Kingdom, Elebits, just to name a few...
Even though Wii has more mature games than GC, some of these are ports, which leaves a sour taste to some, including myself. Eventually, the influx of shit developed on Wii will probably over saturate its user base, much to the contempt of Nintendo fans, new gamers, casuals, ect. That's how it's looking so far. Really, I hope that devs, will shape up and try making worthy games of our attention, instead of just thinking about making a "quick buck".
When you look at Wiis back catalog, it's sad. Sure every console has it's pile of shit, but Wii seems to have more of it...
This hurts Wii image, and in my mind, image is still everything. Wii was created image conscious, eliminating the N brand off the little box, slim look, unusual controllers...blah, blah...it's entirely possible that shit games/ports, aided with lack of HD, will tarnish their insanely lucrative business image...
Their only saving grace and Wiis biggest strength so far is it's first party stuff (no surprise) and an unusual, albeit small, collection of third party stuff that blind sided me with average to high quality scores. Games I personally enjoyed, Endless Ocean, NMH, Castlevania Judgement, Rayman Raving Rabbids, RE:UC, RE4, that bitch ass hard MegaMan 9, My Sims Kingdom, Elebits, just to name a few...
Even though Wii has more mature games than GC, some of these are ports, which leaves a sour taste to some, including myself. Eventually, the influx of shit developed on Wii will probably over saturate its user base, much to the contempt of Nintendo fans, new gamers, casuals, ect. That's how it's looking so far. Really, I hope that devs, will shape up and try making worthy games of our attention, instead of just thinking about making a "quick buck".
When you look at Wiis back catalog, it's sad. Sure every console has it's pile of shit, but Wii seems to have more of it...
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
i agree with the OP quotes completely. over the holidays i got a better idea of why the DS/Wii/(casual)PC market is so flooded with crap games that veteran gamers have to sift through or put up filters (game mags and sites) in order to get the most of our time.
ME:
-gamer for nearly my entire 23 years of living
-enjoy both casual and core gaming genre's and titles
-actively read gaming mags and keep up to date with gaming sites
-have bought and played enough games in my life to know what it's like to buy a piece of crap and regret wasting the money, so now investigate any title before purchasing (reviews, word of mouth, etc.)
GAME PURCHASING SCENARIO: oh? new game is out? who makes new game? *looks at screens and videos* what did it score with magazine reviews? what did it score (if applicable) with user reviews? how much does it cost? is there a demo? *plays demo* (if applicable)
PURCHASE OR NO PURCHASE
MY 25yr OLD SISTER:
-never interested in games until the past 3 or 4 years with her boyfriend's PS2
-has a DS now and wants a Wii
-does not read gaming magazines or looks up games on the internet
-has (from my perspective) a collection of ps2 and ds games that seem to have been bought based on the cover art and/or the promises made on the back of the box, or even if it's from a widely known non-game franchise of some sort (lotr, lego). most of her games are sub 75/100 scoring titles.
GAME PURCHASING SCENARIO: the cover art looks pretty/cute/fun/silly/interesting! what type of game is it? is it hard to play? how much does it cost? what does the back of the box say about it?
PURCHASE OF NO PURCHASE
MY DAD:
-gamer since i was a kid with a NES, then later on in the mid 90's a win95/DOS pc
-has a vista laptop with decent horsepower (X2 with a 6800-ish card)
-does not read gaming magazines or sites, but often looks up user reviews of any product before buying
-has a few PC games, mostly flight simulation, golf, or odd titles (no name crime scene who-dunnit games) that he rarely plays (but enjoys a wider variety of games)
GAME PURCHASING SCENARIO: is this a type of game i like? do i have time to play it? will my comptuer/joystick work with it? what does the back of the box say? hmmm... *returns to look at it on 3 other occasions, standing in the aisle for several minutes pondering*, decides to look up on the internet and see about a few things he's curious about the game to see what other buyers have said
PURCHASE OR NO PURCHASE
*********
seems to me like the wii and ds aisles prey on buyers such as my dad and sister because of their inability(read: unwillingness or lack of knowledge as to where to look) to have foresight into if the game is WORTH BUYING AND PLAYING as a whole. does bestbuy show you how great the game was reviewed? not unless you're on the website, which im fairly certain the wide majority of non-core gamers don't buy games through. it's easy to make pretty box art and write up an epic paragraph on how awesome the game is and slap it on the back. soccer moms will see something neato looking and just grab it without thinking. how many times have you seen this? tons of games some kids own they don't play because they were handed crap that the buyer had no easy way of screening first. the shovelware companies want people to stay ignorant and just keep dropping money.
now sure, some of these games my sister thinks are great, and some of them she thinks are just okay, but once they have someone's money and you've played it for a bit it's gone. and then you sell it to a place like gamestop and you hurt the industry even more. it's like a dog you're conditioning to think peeing on the couch is okay, and then when you finally SIT in some of the pee you hit in him the face or stop putting water in his bowl.
additional thought: maybe so many people that haven't been into gaming for very long or don't center their life around it as much as others think that it's basically like the movie industry? "whatever comes out is going to be at least good or okay" without realizing the shear amount of stuff that comes out for game consoles and that the range of good or bad is A LOT wider.
/huge rant
ME:
-gamer for nearly my entire 23 years of living
-enjoy both casual and core gaming genre's and titles
-actively read gaming mags and keep up to date with gaming sites
-have bought and played enough games in my life to know what it's like to buy a piece of crap and regret wasting the money, so now investigate any title before purchasing (reviews, word of mouth, etc.)
GAME PURCHASING SCENARIO: oh? new game is out? who makes new game? *looks at screens and videos* what did it score with magazine reviews? what did it score (if applicable) with user reviews? how much does it cost? is there a demo? *plays demo* (if applicable)
PURCHASE OR NO PURCHASE
MY 25yr OLD SISTER:
-never interested in games until the past 3 or 4 years with her boyfriend's PS2
-has a DS now and wants a Wii
-does not read gaming magazines or looks up games on the internet
-has (from my perspective) a collection of ps2 and ds games that seem to have been bought based on the cover art and/or the promises made on the back of the box, or even if it's from a widely known non-game franchise of some sort (lotr, lego). most of her games are sub 75/100 scoring titles.
GAME PURCHASING SCENARIO: the cover art looks pretty/cute/fun/silly/interesting! what type of game is it? is it hard to play? how much does it cost? what does the back of the box say about it?
PURCHASE OF NO PURCHASE
MY DAD:
-gamer since i was a kid with a NES, then later on in the mid 90's a win95/DOS pc
-has a vista laptop with decent horsepower (X2 with a 6800-ish card)
-does not read gaming magazines or sites, but often looks up user reviews of any product before buying
-has a few PC games, mostly flight simulation, golf, or odd titles (no name crime scene who-dunnit games) that he rarely plays (but enjoys a wider variety of games)
GAME PURCHASING SCENARIO: is this a type of game i like? do i have time to play it? will my comptuer/joystick work with it? what does the back of the box say? hmmm... *returns to look at it on 3 other occasions, standing in the aisle for several minutes pondering*, decides to look up on the internet and see about a few things he's curious about the game to see what other buyers have said
PURCHASE OR NO PURCHASE
*********
seems to me like the wii and ds aisles prey on buyers such as my dad and sister because of their inability(read: unwillingness or lack of knowledge as to where to look) to have foresight into if the game is WORTH BUYING AND PLAYING as a whole. does bestbuy show you how great the game was reviewed? not unless you're on the website, which im fairly certain the wide majority of non-core gamers don't buy games through. it's easy to make pretty box art and write up an epic paragraph on how awesome the game is and slap it on the back. soccer moms will see something neato looking and just grab it without thinking. how many times have you seen this? tons of games some kids own they don't play because they were handed crap that the buyer had no easy way of screening first. the shovelware companies want people to stay ignorant and just keep dropping money.
now sure, some of these games my sister thinks are great, and some of them she thinks are just okay, but once they have someone's money and you've played it for a bit it's gone. and then you sell it to a place like gamestop and you hurt the industry even more. it's like a dog you're conditioning to think peeing on the couch is okay, and then when you finally SIT in some of the pee you hit in him the face or stop putting water in his bowl.
additional thought: maybe so many people that haven't been into gaming for very long or don't center their life around it as much as others think that it's basically like the movie industry? "whatever comes out is going to be at least good or okay" without realizing the shear amount of stuff that comes out for game consoles and that the range of good or bad is A LOT wider.
/huge rant
Jaded Alyx
Member
Endless Ocean is first party.Evilink said:
Well it shows that the console manufacturer screening games based on some sort of gameplay quality ideal is a ridiculous suggestion. Unless some developers pony up with some decent games in these genres(which are wildly popular) like Nintendo and a few others are doing then the shovelware will continue to sell.saunderez said:
Zoramon089
Banned
Drinky Crow said:
*sighs*
The root problem is devs not wanting to create good games around the wiimote because they'd rather just make games on stronger hardware...You can tell what priorities devs these days have when hype for them games is for their technical achievements and not gameplay...
Jaded Alyx
Member
That's his tag.Zoramon089 said:
Evilink said:What's Drinky's show? I'm an animation nut, I'd like to see it. Ummmm Wiis 09 year does look pretty freak'n amazing though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_E066wjbao
It's on Cartoon Network... I think on Sunday nights.
Zoramon089 said:
Drinky Crow is not banned. That's his tag. The More You Know
GhaleonQ
Member
_leech_ said:
In that recent Gamasutra interview with Moran and Mechner, he doesn't use the number, but since the staff worked massive overtime, took paycuts, and they (likely) didn't fully pay off everything else during that period, he probably meant "to continue the studio."
Haunted said:
http://jordanmechner.com/last-express http://personal.markmoran.net/Programming/GamesDomainInterview.html
He was the lead programmer.
It's remarkable to me that people can call the Wii's software unappealing when people are buying so goddamned much of it month after month. If you guys haven't noticed, they tend to focus on the good stuff and avoid the detritus without the need of metacritic. Maybe because most of the shit resembles shit so well.
Nintendo and the Wii's reputations aren't being hurt whatsoever by this.
Nintendo and the Wii's reputations aren't being hurt whatsoever by this.
Evilink said:
If you were on game forums within months of the Wii launch you must have noticed that a lot of those gamers have already had a bad image of the Wii. People have stayed focused on the bad games this entire time. I have no idea why, because I ignore them and just focus on the games I like.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
What? What proof do you have of that.Vinci said:
Son of Godzilla said:
The only people we've heard any whining from when it came to the Wii were hardcore gamers and gaming websites lamenting its success. Typically when a product is underserving, or completely confusing and screwing its owners over, there's some news about it. Some sign of unrest. There's nothing: We look at the sales figures every month and every month the same titles sell over and over again. The top-selling games on the system continue to sell like they're brand new, because they're the best the system has. If it says Nintendo on it, it tends to make them money. How is that a sign that their reputation is being anything but strengthened within this userbase?
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
APZonerunner said:2K?
Top selling title.
Son of Godzilla said:
The staggering record breaking software sales months after month coupled with the RISING attach rate and overall increase in popularity and amounts of hardware software and peripherals sold from its launch until this very day?
How you could even question that the popularity of Nintendo and the Wii is in effect rising and NOT decaying is absolutely mind blowing. Not that it would stop you from thinking whatever you want to think, but your still dead wrong. Theres been one casual game from a third party that has lit the charts on FIRE and thats the original Carnival games, even its spinoffs haven't been able to come near it. These casuals are finding SOME way to gravitate towards the less crappy casual games. I dont know if its through reviews, cover art, or word of mouth, but "Imagine Shitz" is NOT selling anywhere near games like Mario Party 8 in any country across the entire world.
Yeah they are buying some of the casual crap, but they seem to be flocking towards the best of it. Only the occasional REALLY shitty title manages to do hardcore blockbuster numbers. The rest may do enough to turn profit, but theres a big difference between that and lighting up the charts.
Infernal Monkey
Member
I keep forgetting you guys in America haven't experience this level of shovelware before (or since the NES, maybe), what with Sony America actually having some sort of quality control. The PAL PS2 market was/is FLOODED with rubbish, and I don't remember the industry imploding because of it, but maybe I was away that day. Phoenix Games by themselves somehow managed over 100 pieces of hilarious shit in three years.
Welcome to what the rest of the vidya gamin' world has been dealing with for ages!
Welcome to what the rest of the vidya gamin' world has been dealing with for ages!
Puncture said:
What works in the case of Carnival Games and its spinoffs example is that a LOT of people bought the game; some liked it, some didn't. The ones that did bought the spinoffs; the ones who didn't like it don't buy them. Also if anything resembles Carnival Games shows up: Assume it's similar enough to (a) warrant your purchase if you absolutely loved Carnival Games, (b) too similar to bother with, or (c) not something you want. This is how consumer purchasing has always worked. For those people who liked it? Awesome. They're happy. For those who didn't, they learned what to avoid - which seems to be an overwhelming number of shovelware titles. Yay.
Seriously, if a product isn't appealing or is fading in its appeal, its sales slow down. This has always happened. I don't know how anyone could assume people find the Wii confusing or unappealing based on it breaking record after record within its first couple of years.
pete_townshend
Banned
Vinci said:
What a strange thing to say. The only whining regarding the Wii is coming from the hardcore gamers and journalists lamenting the Wii's success? Really? Really?
Have you missed the weekly threads started by the hardcore Nintendo fans over the last year asking where are all the deep, high-production value games are at? All the comments by long-time Nintendo fans about why the top developers are ignoring the Wii? The desperation for even a rumor of a possibility of some developer throwing them a crumb?
The HD gamers will grumble about the sales successes of the Wii, but you don't see threads from them asking where the good HD games are at. If anything, there are way too many games. The truth is the real loser so far this generation is the NINTENDO hardcore gamer (well, at least those who haven't completely tossed every shred of critical thinking in order to cheer on a "winner".)
Agent X
Member
dark10x said:
This is an excellent commentary.
I see a lot of posts justifying this by saying "every popular system has had a history of shovelware". Yes, that's true. However, I don't think any mainstream system ever has suffered from such a low ratio of good to bad games (with possible exception being some of Nintendo's handhelds).
Nintendo established their "Official Nintendo Seal of Quality" under the guise of promoting standards of quality control. We know that was all a load of crap--the NES had a boatload of stinkers as well. See, folks, Nintendo really didn't give a damn about "quality" as long as game publishers were paying them licensing fees to manufacture the games. I understand that this revelation may shatter the illusion some of you have maintained in your minds for the better part of two decades, but that's the sad reality.
Here we are in 2009, and really, not much has changed. If the publisher pays Nintendo the fee to manufacture the games, then Nintendo approves of it. This is where the problem is with regard to purported "quality control". Video game console producers typically collect fees on games manufactured, not games sold.
With that in mind, what does Nintendo care if a glut of shovelware games clutter the shelves? They've already got their money up front!
The 2K Games spokesperson is concerned, because this means that his games have to compete for shelf space with all of the shovelware games. Retailers only have a finite amount of space to stock and display games, you know. At the same time, however, nobody really wants Nintendo to enforce tight standards of quality control, because we've seen the results of that.
So, the question is how can Nintendo encourage higher quality software development without irking people by censoring "objectionable" content or rejecting niche games?
One way they could do this is to offer an incentive program for developers whose games meet a certain sales goal. Bring back the "Player's Choice" program, reduce licensing fees for games that exceed certain sales plateaus (250,000 sold, 500,000 sold, 1,000,000 sold), and perhaps even give a kickback in co-sponsored marketing or advertising to games that break the million mark.
I don't know if Nintendo would actually institute such a program, as again they don't really have any incentive to do so since they get paid up front for manufacturing. But, it would be nice if they did it anyway, as otherwise they're currently well on their way to fostering exactly the type of market crash-bearing situation (a glut of poor-quality software cluttering store shelves) their licensing program was purported to prevent in the first place!
This is absolute rubbish. The only people worried about Wii titles cluttering shelves are Microsoft, Sony and a bunch of elitist gamers. People are buying these games and enjoying them. Casual players and retailers aren't as stupid as a lot of you people would like everyone to believe. Again.. the titles aren't cluttering up shelves and ruining gaming. They are selling like hotcakes and until people are given a better alternative in genres they enjoy they seem set to continue to do so.Agent X said:
What I find funny is that a lot of those crap shovelware Wii games are old PS2 games shoveled and repackaged in a Wii box. Hence the term "shovelware". The PS2 has around 757 games with an aggregate score better than 70% which means it has somewhere between 1000 and 1200 games that would fit into the "bad game variety". The Wii has 123 games with an aggregate score better than 70% so far with 212 games that would fit into the "bad game variety". So the Wii is indeed tracking higher shovelware than PS2 but not by much. As time goes on I expect we will see a shift in quality towards the Wii as good games take time and resources to make and 3rd parties are still trying to catch up. I have no doubt that the Wii will have more shovelware than PS2 by the end of it's life-span but the Wii is also much more successful with casual gamers than the PS2 was at the same point in it's life by something like 20 Million units.
Japanese 3rd parties are shifting to the market leader just like they did with the DS and it's the western publishers that will be caught holding their dicks if they continue to spew nothing but garbage onto the Wii. I honestly don't feel Nintendo has to do anything as the market will regulate itself as consumers begin to have better options from more talented developers the shovelware will begin to falter more than it already is. The best selling Wii games of 2008 according to NPD were quality and traditional games not crap mini-game collections.
Japanese 3rd parties are shifting to the market leader just like they did with the DS and it's the western publishers that will be caught holding their dicks if they continue to spew nothing but garbage onto the Wii. I honestly don't feel Nintendo has to do anything as the market will regulate itself as consumers begin to have better options from more talented developers the shovelware will begin to falter more than it already is. The best selling Wii games of 2008 according to NPD were quality and traditional games not crap mini-game collections.