I just read your clarification in the OP. I guess you're right, although I wouldn't call the success unconventional, since it's been like that for Nintendo for a while now (lack of 3rd parties.)
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3DS Succeeding, but for unconventional reasons?
- Thread starter MiketheBSG
- Start date
I just read your clarification in the OP. I guess you're right, although I wouldn't call the success unconventional, since it's been like that for Nintendo for a while now (lack of 3rd parties.)
MiketheBSG
Member
Here's another example of what I'm talking about. 8 of these games are either published by Nintendo or feature Nintendo franchises. Shantae is an eShop game, which I feel is a strength of the 3DS, it's those third party companies that are lacking, which is a shame, because when they put some effort into it, like Project X, they can certainly deliver.
electroplankton
Banned
Is it really surprising that a Nintendo platform has many Nintendo games? It's just a regular thing. Third parties are on board, of course not as much as on home console or anything. But previous support was pretty good (Resident Evil, Kingdom Hearts, Tekken, Ace Combat, Dead or Alive, Harvest Moon, Monster Hunter, Theatrhythm Final Fantasy, Rhythm Thief, Street Fighter, Professor Layton) and it'll be good in 2013 and later on: Batman, Adventure Time, Lego Friends, Fantasy Life, Ace Attorney, Professor Layton, Bravely Default, Dragon Quest, all the Atlus games (two Etrian Odyssey, Devil Survivor 2 Break Record, etc.), Monster Hunter 4, etc.
Many games are coming but still need a release date.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
The handhelds have always had 3rd parties, it's one thing Nintendo has never had a issue with (Japanese anyway). But even despite this it was franchise that Nintendo directly influenced even if they did not make it (e.g Pokémon) that were most notable system driving releases. DS had brain training Nintendog's as well as eventually pokemon, Pokémon also always generally being the most consistently well known through the Gameboy era, and Mario kart and 3D land being the most notable for 3DS. It's simply how there handheld systems works. It's also why it's generally self sufficient.
most developers who support handhelds are Japanese. 3ds's success is still largely in Japan and it's getting plenty of third-party releases over there. i'm sure a lot of those games aren't in a rush to localize because the console hasn't really caught on to the same degree in NA/EU. the ones that rush localization are Nintendo games because without those it'll never catch on over here.
I agree that the good releases are slow coming, but there is a really good library developing here. It's a small library, but it's a very strong library. And for some reason, maybe it's because the ceiling for improvement is lower on this sort of hardware which makes older games hold up better, or maybe it's just that the library is thin enough that you can see all the good games without the shit blocking the view, but for some reason when people I know pick up a 3DS they go back in the library and pick up the good stuff too. Compare that to people I know who have entered a console generation a few years late (ie no other current gen platform), they typically only at current and future releases. So if people are willing to look at the full library, as they are in my experience, then you have a very nice library available to you.
I was thinking about same thing too. 3DS catalog as of end of this years looks nowhere near diverse as DS's. As of 3rd party only strict regulars are there: Atlus, Capcom, Square-enix and XSEED, nothing more (Level-5 is regarded as 2nd party here in west). For now success of 3DS is solely relied on first party Nintendo titles. System certainly needs more. More western harcore games and console quality genres like action games, free-roaming soapbox, huge RPG's, racing titles and of course some FPS. They say 3DS is pretty powerful but I haven't seen anything that looks great since Resident Evil Revelations.
I wish some western giants bring their IP's to handhelds, Deus Ex, Just Cause, Saints Row (THQ screwed us, you do this Deep Silver!), Hitman, Yakuza, Dark Souls, Mass Effect... People wont complain about little comprimises if it plays great on the go (like RE:R and AC: L). Just no to 2D platformers, there are too much of them right now and people are sick of them.
I wish some western giants bring their IP's to handhelds, Deus Ex, Just Cause, Saints Row (THQ screwed us, you do this Deep Silver!), Hitman, Yakuza, Dark Souls, Mass Effect... People wont complain about little comprimises if it plays great on the go (like RE:R and AC: L). Just no to 2D platformers, there are too much of them right now and people are sick of them.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Wait you talk about how 3DS isn't as diverse as the DS then talk about a bunch of genre that weren't on the DS or wouldn't work well on the DS. The DS didn't receive much western 3rd party support either, outside of multiplatforms.
Your asking for things the DS probably wouldn't have even if it was as powerful as the 3ds, you realise that was never going to happen right. Western developers were never into handhelds and that's unlikely to change any time soon.
I was curious about this so I went and listed the NA releases in the first two years and two months for both systems (DS and 3DS) and the total is pretty even without including most of the 3DS eShop games.
168 games for the DS vs 162 for the 3DS. So if we are talking pure quantity the argument doesn't really hold up as it is pretty much the same.
Regarding quality, we could look at metacritic average for both lists but that would take quite a bit of time unless there's a convenient way of doing it on their website that I am not aware of. We could also look at what kind of games both libraries were made of two years into their lifetime, which could give us a clearer image and that's what I did. I'll start with the games that most posters here don't care about so we get them out of the way:
Licenced games (based on popular movies/books/toys/shows) and that are often targeted at a young age audience are about at the same count. 44 for the DS vs 38 for the 3DS. Included in this category are games such as "Harry Potter and The Goblet of Fire", "Nicktoons: Unite!", "Disney's Chicken Little: Ace in Action" for the DS and "Thor: God of Thunder", "Wipeout 2" and "The Adventures of Tintin: The Game" for the 3DS. Titles most here I guess don't care about but I must mention that included in the 3DS count are a few LEGO games too.
Another represented group are minigames collections and low budget puzzle games: 16 on the DS versus 23 on the 3DS. Included in these are the Brain Training series on both consoles. Other titles include "Battleship/Connect Four/Sorry/Trouble" for the DS or "50 Classic Games 3D" for the 3DS.
Racing games are at 8 for the DS versus 7 for the 3DS while sports games are at 7 vs 6. In both cases, it is often the same series that come back such as FIFA, PES or Need For Speed. It's interesting to note that 3DS has a Madden game, a Ridge Racer and a WWE game.
Games such as Nintendogs are at an even count too. 7 versus 8. 3DS also has a lot of "fashion" games which were non existant on the DS at the time, stuff like "Imagine Fashion Life".
Now let's look at some of the major "core" games in both libraries and compare:
I think it is safe to say that at this point the 3DS has more "big" quality core titles than the DS at this point in its lifetime and in more different genres.
On the other hand the DS has had more smaller quality "core" games such as:
The 3DS on the other hand does have a few quality games that can compare to these. The rythm games selection is superior for example with Theathrythm, Rythm Thief and Harmoknight. There's also games like Steel Diver and Pilotwings resort that compare very much to the style of the games I listed for the DS but most of these games are now on the eShop. Stuff like "Pushmo/Crashmo", The Guild games, etc. So if you consider the eShop the libraries seem to offer about the same quantity/quality for these kind of games, if you don't, I'd say the DS wins this particular battle.
Of course these categories are highly subjective but I tried doing my best at being as neutral as possible. Games list is from Nintendo's website so I might have missed a few but overall I think it gives a good overall view of what both consoles games libraries were 2 years after launch.
Personally, I think the 3DS has a stronger library. Most of the popular IPs in the early life of the DS have seen sequels on the 3DS or have games announced in the future (both first part/third party). The question is if the 3DS will be able to carry its momentum through the next few years. In comparison, the DS library only kept getting better with time.
So to answer the question OP asked, no I don't think the 3DS is succeeding for unconventional reasons, especially if we consider the DS success as the conventional one. Both libraries share a lot of similarities with a more "core" focus on the 3DS.
168 games for the DS vs 162 for the 3DS. So if we are talking pure quantity the argument doesn't really hold up as it is pretty much the same.
Regarding quality, we could look at metacritic average for both lists but that would take quite a bit of time unless there's a convenient way of doing it on their website that I am not aware of. We could also look at what kind of games both libraries were made of two years into their lifetime, which could give us a clearer image and that's what I did. I'll start with the games that most posters here don't care about so we get them out of the way:
Licenced games (based on popular movies/books/toys/shows) and that are often targeted at a young age audience are about at the same count. 44 for the DS vs 38 for the 3DS. Included in this category are games such as "Harry Potter and The Goblet of Fire", "Nicktoons: Unite!", "Disney's Chicken Little: Ace in Action" for the DS and "Thor: God of Thunder", "Wipeout 2" and "The Adventures of Tintin: The Game" for the 3DS. Titles most here I guess don't care about but I must mention that included in the 3DS count are a few LEGO games too.
Another represented group are minigames collections and low budget puzzle games: 16 on the DS versus 23 on the 3DS. Included in these are the Brain Training series on both consoles. Other titles include "Battleship/Connect Four/Sorry/Trouble" for the DS or "50 Classic Games 3D" for the 3DS.
Racing games are at 8 for the DS versus 7 for the 3DS while sports games are at 7 vs 6. In both cases, it is often the same series that come back such as FIFA, PES or Need For Speed. It's interesting to note that 3DS has a Madden game, a Ridge Racer and a WWE game.
Games such as Nintendogs are at an even count too. 7 versus 8. 3DS also has a lot of "fashion" games which were non existant on the DS at the time, stuff like "Imagine Fashion Life".
Now let's look at some of the major "core" games in both libraries and compare:
Code:
[B]DS[/B] [B]3DS[/B]
Super Mario 64 DS Super Street Fighter IV 3D Edition
Advance Wars: Dual Strike SMT: Devil Survivor Overclocked
Castlevania: Dawn Of Sorrow Harvest Moon 3D: The Tale of Two Towns
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Mario Kart 7
Mario Kart DS Tales of the Abyss 3D
Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time Tekken 3D
Animal Crossing Wild World Metal Gear Solid Snake Eater 3D
Metroid Prime Hunters Kid Icarus: Uprising
New Super Mario Bros. Kingdom Hearts 3D
Dragon Quest Heroes: Rocket Slime New Super Mario Bros. 2
Yoshi's Island DS Zero Escape: VLR
Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin Professor Layton & the Miracle Mask
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Justice for All Harvest Moon 3D: A new Beginning
Kirby's Canvas curse Fire Emblem Awakening
Children of Mana Super Mario 3D Land
Final Fantasy III Etrian Odyssey IV: Legends of the Titan
Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon
SMT: Soul Hackers
DKCR 3D
Animal Crossing: New Leaf
Monster Hunter 3
Castlevania: Lords of Shadow
Starfox 64 3DI think it is safe to say that at this point the 3DS has more "big" quality core titles than the DS at this point in its lifetime and in more different genres.
On the other hand the DS has had more smaller quality "core" games such as:
Code:
Wario Ware: Touched!
Yoshi Touch & Go
Polarium
Pac Pix
Trace Memory
Lost in Blue
Trauma Center
Metroid Pinball
ElectroPlankton
Super Princess Peach
Elite Beat Agents
Hotel Dusk: Room 215The 3DS on the other hand does have a few quality games that can compare to these. The rythm games selection is superior for example with Theathrythm, Rythm Thief and Harmoknight. There's also games like Steel Diver and Pilotwings resort that compare very much to the style of the games I listed for the DS but most of these games are now on the eShop. Stuff like "Pushmo/Crashmo", The Guild games, etc. So if you consider the eShop the libraries seem to offer about the same quantity/quality for these kind of games, if you don't, I'd say the DS wins this particular battle.
Of course these categories are highly subjective but I tried doing my best at being as neutral as possible. Games list is from Nintendo's website so I might have missed a few but overall I think it gives a good overall view of what both consoles games libraries were 2 years after launch.
Personally, I think the 3DS has a stronger library. Most of the popular IPs in the early life of the DS have seen sequels on the 3DS or have games announced in the future (both first part/third party). The question is if the 3DS will be able to carry its momentum through the next few years. In comparison, the DS library only kept getting better with time.
So to answer the question OP asked, no I don't think the 3DS is succeeding for unconventional reasons, especially if we consider the DS success as the conventional one. Both libraries share a lot of similarities with a more "core" focus on the 3DS.
Lazy Man's Wallpaper
Member
I have a new release preordered every month through like October, some months two games. There's more set to come out than I even have time to play. Good games are universal, nawmean?
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
For me it was MK7, 3D-Land, NSMB2 and the upcoming games like Zelda ALTTP2, Pokemon, MH4, SmashBros.
I don't like most japanese games but there is still more than enough to play for me.
It is a very good library.
But I gotta say that I'm not completely blown away by the 3DS. I think Nintendo could've done so much more. The hardware is pretty lame imo, its barely above PSP graphics and the lack of a second analogpad is a big bummer, too. It just blocks so many types of games from beeing on the plattform. Especially when I see MH4... I mean, it looks just like MP3rd on PSP and the PSP is hardware from 2004, and the lack of a second analogstick or pad is really a problem in MH, because the game would be so much more fun with a second stick.
I don't like most japanese games but there is still more than enough to play for me.
It is a very good library.
But I gotta say that I'm not completely blown away by the 3DS. I think Nintendo could've done so much more. The hardware is pretty lame imo, its barely above PSP graphics and the lack of a second analogpad is a big bummer, too. It just blocks so many types of games from beeing on the plattform. Especially when I see MH4... I mean, it looks just like MP3rd on PSP and the PSP is hardware from 2004, and the lack of a second analogstick or pad is really a problem in MH, because the game would be so much more fun with a second stick.
And what determines a good game according to you? Metacritic? Budgets? Marketing? Or is it your personal tastes?
JordanLMiller
Member
Personally, I haven't found very many games on the system I enjoy either. I think the hardware's great, but the software side of the equation is just bad. I wonder sometimes if it has to do with budgeting issues. Less risks are being taken. iOS might be an issue too.
breakfuss
Member
Ain't that the truth.
Well, let's not kid ourselves, 3DS isn't doing amazing in the West. It's blown up in Japan, but it does have oodles of third party support there.
Still, the fact that it's self-sustaining in the West almost entirely based on first party software is kind of a marvel. I don't think anyone but Nintendo could pull something like that off.
Grimm Fandango
Member
Edit whoops wrong thread.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
They probably could, but it might have flopped due to higher price tag and result in lesser softwares.
reelbigtink
Member
This was an amazing bit of work you did and I just wanted to give you kudos for it.
eighty(one)
Member
Well, so far in 2013 we've had: Fire Emblem Awakening, Brain Age: Concentration Training, Castlevania Mirror of Fate, Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, Etrian Odyssey 4, Luigis Mansion Dark Moon, Lego City Chase Begins and soon Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D and Animal Crissing New Leaf.
Not bad at all.
Not bad at all.
rohlfinator
Member
It does seem a little weird -- it has a really solid library, but mostly from a core gamer perspective. It doesn't seem like there's much to appeal to the Nintendogs/Brain Age/Animal Crossing crowd that propelled the DS to its heights.
Not that that's a bad thing at all, just a little surprising coming off a Nintendo generation where the "blue ocean" was so central to their strategy.
Not that that's a bad thing at all, just a little surprising coming off a Nintendo generation where the "blue ocean" was so central to their strategy.
MiketheBSG
Member
I'm not ashamed to say that metacritic has some weight in my decision. But I also look at user ratings (make sure their not spamming a game i.e. Mass Effect 3), and I also must like the genre, or even if I didn't like the genre at the time, I'll consider trying some games out if my peers recommend them.
MiketheBSG
Member
Again, that's a lot of first party games. That's definitely a good thing, but not when third parties (non-indie) aren't matching it up.
I think I'm starting to see what makes the 3DS a success. It's thanks to Nintendo and indie developers. Third party companies just aren't cutting it for some reason.
Thanks! It's cool seeing at least one person took the time to read the whole thing.
Your angle in the OP was comparing the GBA, DS and 3DS libraries. If you scroll up and read my post you'll see that the third party situation at this point in the lifetime of the DS and 3DS is pretty comparable. Third Party developers have actually given a better support for the 3DS so far when talking about core titles than they did for DS.
While it is true that these kind of games do not sell nearly as much as they used to on the DS. We still have seen a very comparable output to what the 2 first years of the DS were. They're simply just not as profitable and do not make the headlines anymore. So we can expect to see less and less of those kind of games as we move forward, yes.
the irony being it has Nintendogs, Brain Age, and will have Animal Crossing in a couple weeks!
but it's true, things have changed
Night_Trekker
Member
It was a number of things:
1) price drop
2) third party support
3) lower price than the Vita
4) got a head start on the Vita
I strongly doubt had anything to do with the eShop.
1) price drop
2) third party support
3) lower price than the Vita
4) got a head start on the Vita
I strongly doubt had anything to do with the eShop.
MiketheBSG
Member
Hey Madouu, that was pretty good work there. I wish there was an easy way to do Metacritic to compare too, because I personally just recall there being more interesting games in the first two years for DS, namely because at that time third party companies had compelling releases. For the first two years for 3DS, while there may be a comparable amount of third party games on 3DS vs. DS, we're just not getting the same quality in games we has on DS. The big games from EA and Activision, where are they? No Madden, no Call of Duty, games that came out regularly on the DS. Lets compare Castlevania on DS with Lords of Shadow. It took more than two years to get one Ace Attorney game. You had the likes on Contra 4 and Renegade Kids games like Dementium and Moon. N+. The World Ends With You. Trauma Center. Viewtiful Joe. The Sonic games. Why is Phantasy Star not coming out on 3DS like the DS got Phantasy Star 0? This is just a small example of what I'm saying how that third party support doesn't exist on the 3DS that made the DS awesome. The companies that made these games and many others on DS aren't delivering on 3DS the way they delivered on DS.
Now you guys see some of the tastes I have and what I'm looking for in 3DS.
Now you guys see some of the tastes I have and what I'm looking for in 3DS.
Night_Trekker
Member
How well did PS0 end up doing, sales-wise? And how long into the DS's life span was it released? (I'm not being snarky. I don't know.)
I think you will agree with me that if we want to do a fair comparison we canot really compare the DS library during its whole lifetime which is definitely amazing against the current one of the 3DS which has been out only for two years now.
This is why I've only compared DS/3DS libraries two years after both consoles respective launch dates. One must remember that it is often the games released early in a console lifetime that shape the way for the kind of games it will get in the future. It is only logical to see a lot of Nintendo titles in different genres as they try to set up a market on their platform for the rest. This is true for both DS and 3DS. Just like Brain Training and Nintendogs opened up the way for an avalance of similar games from other developers for example.
To answer your questions, I think we have to look at it on a game per game basis. Concerning the Call of Duty DS games for example, they didn't start releasing until about 2008, so we canot really include them in our comparison. N-space, the developer responsible for these games under Activision publishing is still mainly making 3DS games. They developed & released Heroes of Ruin for SE, RollerCoaster Tycoon 3D for Atari and Skylanders: Giants for Activision last year for example.
EA has been releasing its successful series on 3DS early on. The console has had the latest FIFA entries, a Need for Speed game, a Madden game and a Sims game. EA doesn't seem to be supporting the console too much anymore though so I don't know if they'll keep releasing games for it. The next FIFA still hasn't been announced for 3DS for example so I'll give you that.
Concerning the Castlevania 2D games, as much as I prefer those to what the franchise has become now, sadly those games never performed well so they are trying to move the franchise into another direction. The issue here is not really the platform.
The DS in the same time frame only had two Ace Attorney games and the reason that they got released so fast is because those were GBA games ported to the DS. In comparison, the 3DS entry is a completely new game.
Contra 4 released three years after the DS launch. Stuff like Dementium, Moon, N+ & TWEWY all released after 2008 if I remember correctly, so pretty far from the 2 year time frame after launch we decided upon if we want a fair comparison.
It's a shame we didn't get a Viewtiful Joe but alas there's no Clover studio anymore. And for Trauma center, it's one of those franchises that seem to have died a bit sadly. Sonic games on the other hand I wouldn't worry too much, the console got Sonic Racing and Sonic generations and I'm sure more sonic games will be released with time since they tend do to quite well on Nintendo consoles.
Now let's look at games the 3DS got very early on that the DS didn't get in its first two years. Fighting games like Street Fighter, Tekken, Dead or Alive or Blazing Blue for example. JRPGS such as the Shin Megami Tensei games, a Tales of and a Kingdom Hearts. A Monster Hunter game, A Metal Gear game and a Professor Layton game. And this is without ever mentioning a single Nintendo game whose efforts have been far greater on the 3DS compared to the DS, or eShop games where a lot of the low budget titles have transitioned to.
Now who knows what the library will be a few years down the line, it probably will never reach the sheer diversity of the DS library. But right now it seems to me that the 3DS lineup is stronger and more varied than what the DS library was two years after their respective releases.
edit: I understand that the game's library might not look appealing to you though, everybody has preferences. I just don't think it's that much different from what the DS library would look like for you if we took an instant photo of it in let's say December 2006.
IrishNinja
Member
Crash Station
Member
Who cares if it's first party or third party? Good games are good games. People buy a system with good games. It's not unconventional at all.
Here are the Japanese sales from garaph (My guess is that it probably didn't sell that much more in NA+EU)
I'm not an expert on Phantasy Star, but it seems to me that 0 was a spin off title that released quite late in the DS lifetime right? I don't know if we will ever see a Phantasy Star Online like there is on Vita though, and seeing how SEGA are refocusing on their main franchises, I don't think a spin off is in order for 3DS anytime soon. Still, who knows!
Caddywompus
Member
I think your issue lies in the "fact" that 3DS Nintendo titles are overshadowing quality third party efforts. Where as on the DS it seemed to have third party titles that where not only on par with Nintendo's seal of quailty but out did them in many instances. Is that because Nintendo is putting more effort into the 3DS than the DS or third parties are giving less? Not at all, it's all about gaming preference. The third party games are there its just whether or not you've played them and enjoyed them.
BRocknRolla
Member
I think it's probably successful because it's the cheapest way to game. That sells a lot of systems to children/young people and casuals in and of itself.
I had a 3DS and sold it after one too many of my great hopes for the system were huge letdowns (Paper Mario & Castevania). Are there some good games? A few really stellar ones, but very few system sellers (Obviously merely my opinion). Beyond the price point, it's success remains somewhat baffling to me.
I had a 3DS and sold it after one too many of my great hopes for the system were huge letdowns (Paper Mario & Castevania). Are there some good games? A few really stellar ones, but very few system sellers (Obviously merely my opinion). Beyond the price point, it's success remains somewhat baffling to me.
So you've just admitted you're judging the 3DS success as unconventional only because of your personal tastes? Good to hear, see you.
MiketheBSG
Member
Pikma, did you buy a DS when it came out? You're telling me third parties are putting the same effort and creativity in 3DS games as they did in DS? Look at my list of games I posted in this same page, what comparable games have come out to 3DS? Little to no support from the likes of EA and Activision. Look at the games we used to get from Capcom and Konami. Castlevania LoS vs. any of the DS Castlevania games?
All I'm saying is that what makes 3DS successful is Nintendo and Indie developers. It's the Indie devs that are covering for the lack of effort (not qunatity) of good 3DS releases. Look at Metacritic. Look at the current list of decent games now. How many are from non-Indie third parties? From third parties? That's all I'm trying to point out.
I have created a list of the 177 DS games I own. I will try to pick out what came out the first 2 years of DS to compare to what's out now.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
So you want to tell me that 8 years after the PSP was released we can't get significantly better graphics for 150-200?
I mean, the Vita is now about 20 more than the 3DS XL and proves that its possible.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It has lots of games now. For a games machine made for people who likes games, this is good. The sky be blue.
Indeed, its got quality titles coming from not only Nintendo, but 3rd parties are making stuff for it that's just as good as Nintendo's output in my eyes.
You don't need to do something just because someone else does.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
The psp doesn't have a 2nd screen nor a stereoscopic screen.
Does that vita comes with 4GB memory card, and internal storage like the 3DS XL? How much is a 4GB memory card for the vita?
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I just see it doing well due to the DS being mostly retired now so casual consumers won't get it confused as much with the 3DS, the drop in price and a much more attractive library of games than its first year or so had.
I have a strong feeling Nintendo diverted almost all of their resources into saving the thing when it fell by the wayside though, which has resulted in the Wii U being virtually unsupported by any major Nintendo games for 9 months until Pikmin 3.
I have a strong feeling Nintendo diverted almost all of their resources into saving the thing when it fell by the wayside though, which has resulted in the Wii U being virtually unsupported by any major Nintendo games for 9 months until Pikmin 3.
Yep. All hail to the DS backwards compability.