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720p vs. 1080p: At what point does it matter?

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Completely dependant on viewing distance. 1080p can make a significant difference on a 10" display if you view it from close enough, but there's plenty 32"+ HDTVs in living rooms around the world where the user will be unable to resolve all the detail.
 
Plywood said:
wBFoa.png
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That chart is complete bullshit for games, fyi.

It also makes all manner of assumptions which, almost without exception, fail to apply in most cases.
 
Jimmy Stav said:
Whoops! Though when I made that, 32 inches was out of the question. How will this be for gaming?
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A guy on avs tested input lag for a bunch of 32 inchers and it was second only to an LG IIRC
 
twofold said:
How so?

I sit 9 feet away from 50" television. According to the chart, the difference in PQ is negligible, so I opted for a high quality 720p television instead of a cheaper 1080p one.

I'd love to know how I've misinterpreted the chart.
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First off, your post was ridiculously hyperbolic. So you're saying I need to sit within inches to see a difference in a 42" screen? 37"?


Regardless that is the lesser problem. While I may be reading into this, I suspect you like many others are interpreting the chart wrong. I don't know how many times people have argued 1080p isn't worth it for such and such distance with such and such screen size because it doesn't hit the 1080p line on the chart.

That's not how you are supposed to interpret it. Your brain doesn't magically disregard resolution just because you can't resolve every pixel. It's not like you see 720p ... 720p ... BOOM ... 1080p. Once you move past the 720p line a bit, even if you can't resolve every individual pixel you are perceiving higher resolution.

That isn't to say the chart is perfect ... it has plenty of issues ... but let's at least make an attempt to understand the concepts involved.




captive said:
In before Raistlin/Onix...


Edit, dammit!
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brain_stew said:
Probably the worst post I've seen on GAF all day, congrats.
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:lol
 
One big, nay huge, thing people overlook: "720p" HDTVs aren't actually 720p.

Why does that matter? Scaling, everything you display on a 1366x768 TV will be scaled (with the possible exception of PC content over VGA but that's often a crapshoot) and none of your content will be 1:1 mapped which especially on cheap HDTVs, can introduce some very nasty scaling artefacts.

Most 1080p HDTVs will have a 1:1 pixel mode and this means you can display all 1080i and 1080p content (which is plentiful) without your display scaling the image at all. This can make a huge difference to the overall quality of the image produced.

720p content will be scaled just like it is on "720p" HDTVs, and, contrary to popular belief, scaling to a higher resolution doesn't produce a worse image assuming the same scaling algorithm is used. Quality is much more dependant on the quality of the HDTV's scaler than anything else.
 
Juicy Bob said:
I still can't tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p on my screen.
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That's because they're the same resolution. A 1080P set that properly resolves a 1080i image will produce 30 full 1920x1080 resolution frames per second, and 1:1 map them to your display.

You'll lose a significant amount of detail displaying 1080i content on a "720p" HDTV.
 
Juicy Bob said:
I still can't tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p on my screen.
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On a fixed pixel screen, you shouldn't*. At frequencies of 30Hz and less, you are seeing the original 1080p content.









*assuming the deinterlacing is being done correctly.
 
brain_stew said:
One big, nay huge, thing people overlook: "720p" HDTVs aren't actually 720p.

Why does that matter? Scaling, everything you display on a 1366x768 TV will be scaled (with the possible exception of PC content over VGA but that's often a crapshoot) and none of your content will be 1:1 mapped which especially on cheap HDTVs, can introduce some very nasty scaling artefacts.

Most 1080p HDTVs will have a 1:1 pixel mode and this means you can display all 1080i and 1080p content (which is plentiful) without your display scaling the image at all. This can make a huge difference to the overall quality of the image produced.

720p content will be scaled just like it is on "720p" HDTVs, and, contrary to popular belief, scaling to a higher resolution doesn't produce a worse image assuming the same scaling algorithm is used. Quality is much more dependant on the quality of the HDTV's scaler than anything else.
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Which is why if I had to get stuck with a '720p' TV, I'd go with a Panasonic Plasma. The 1024x720 to 1280x720 is faster and less destructive.






Edit, Dammit :lol
 
T-Matt said:
A guy on avs tested input lag for a bunch of 32 inchers and it was second only to an LG IIRC
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Well in that case, I may have found my TV just as long as the viewing angle isn't garbage. None of the user reviews seem to suggest that, though they're hard to trust.
 
Jimmy Stav said:
Well in that case, I may have found my TV just as long as the viewing angle isn't garbage. None of the user reviews seem to suggest that, though they're hard to trust.
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It's an IPS, which should have good viewing angles.
 
Raistlin said:
First off, your post was ridiculously hyperbolic. So you're saying I need to sit within inches to see a difference in a 42" screen? 37"?


Regardless that is the lesser problem. While I may be reading into this, I suspect you like many others are interpreting the chart wrong. I don't know how many times people have argued 1080p isn't worth it for such and such distance with such and such screen size because it doesn't hit the 1080p line on the chart.

That's not how you are supposed to interpret it. Your brain doesn't magically disregard resolution just because you can't resolve every pixel. It's not like you see 720p ... 720p ... BOOM ... 1080p. Once you move past the 720p line a bit, even if you can't resolve every individual pixel you are perceiving higher resolution.

That isn't to say the chart is perfect ... it has plenty of issues ... but let's at least make an attempt to understand the concepts involved.
Click to expand...

It was hyperbolic, yes, but in a real world scenario, how many people have their living room set up in such a way that they'd be able to resolve the difference between 1080p and 720p? As I said earlier - I have my television set up 9ft away - the point where the difference between 480p and 720p can be fully resolved according to the chart - and it stills feel too close at times. I can't imagine people comfortably sitting 5 ft away from their 50" television as recommended in the THX guidelines.

I understand that how the chart works. I also understand that extraneous variables can affect it, meaning it's not 100% dead on (interestingly; things such as glare, watching the television in the dark without bias lighting etc. reduce your eyes ability to resolve the picture, making it more difficult for your eyes to resolve all the detail inherent in a 1080p picture than the chart indicates).

Regardless, this discussion is pointless as all the good televisions available are 1080p nowadays, not to mention other specs such as contrast ratio, colour reproduction and the like are more important and the 1080p sets have the better hardware behind them.

Personally, I'm more than happy enough with my 720p Panasonic and Lumagen combo and won't be upgrading until I move to a bigger place where I can get a projector and a big enough screen to make full use of 1080p.

brain_stew said:
Probably the worst post I've seen on GAF all day, congrats.
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Thanks. <3
 
alr1ghtstart said:
It's an IPS, which should have good viewing angles.
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But it comes at some expense, doesn't it? These are theoretically worse for gaming?

edit: It's 60hz instead of 120. Should I be concerned?
 
Any comments on input lag? I have no idea what to expect from it, and if it's something I should really care about when considering the L32U22. There's a dude on AVSForum that claims that model has some input lag, but I'm wondering if I'll even notice.
 
brain_stew said:
That chart is complete bullshit for games, fyi.

It also makes all manner of assumptions which, almost without exception, fail to apply in most cases.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I can sit 5 feet away from my 32" if I really wanted to and the difference in between 720p and 1080p in PC games is enormous.

Of course, I'm not an idiot, and I sit at a reasonable 3 feet away.

edit: still, if the choice is between small 1080p TV and big 720p TV, go for the big, unless you're using it as a PC monitor. A 40" 720p TV will serve you far better than a 32" 1080p TV.
 
Houston3000 said:
When I got my 32" I did a lot of research into this and ended up getting 720p and don't regret it in the least.
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I'm just weary of losing the option of using the screen for a monitor, and I sit fairly close to the screen so I think I'd be able to see a difference in quality.
 
Using a 32" 1080p TV as a monitor is great. Would never go back to a monitor.

tv.jpg


(the Sony TV doesn't have the best viewing angles, as made evident by the picture. When looking from where I sit though, it's perfect...far better than any TN panel)
 
Thanks for the feedback. Do you notice, or have you ever noticed any input lag? I've never experienced it on my current display so I'm wondering if it's something I should worry about if I end up getting that Panasonic.
 
Jimmy Stav said:
Thanks for the feedback. Do you notice, or have you ever noticed any input lag? I've never experienced it on my current display so I'm wondering if it's something I should worry about if I end up getting that Panasonic.
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1131464

That thread has a lot of info in input lag. There are Panasonics in there that have scored incredibly well, so you may be okay.

As for input lag...I am really, really sensitive to it. It's not too noticeable on my Sony, which has around 2 frames of lag. On some Samsungs I've tried? Awful. You don't want to get a TV with high input lag...it will make PCs unusable, and rhythm games very hard to play.

edit: after reading a bit on AVSForum, it seems that particular Panasonic has more input lag than other models, though maybe around 2 frames as well. Honestly, unless you're really big into fighting game frame counting and competitive Counter-Strike playing, you won't notice that amount of lag.
 
TheExodu5 said:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1131464

That thread has a lot of info in input lag. There are Panasonics in there that have scored incredibly well, so you may be okay.

As for input lag...I am really, really sensitive to it. It's not too noticeable on my Sony, which has around 2 frames of lag. On some Samsungs I've tried? Awful. You don't want to get a TV with high input lag...it will make PCs unusable, and rhythm games very hard to play.

edit: after reading a bit on AVSForum, it seems that particular Panasonic has more input lag than other models, though maybe around 2 frames as well. Honestly, unless you're really big into fighting game frame counting and competitive Counter-Strike playing, you won't notice that amount of lag.
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Sounds good to me. Input lag can't be any worse than this Samsung, and I haven't noticed any yet. Again, I appreciate your input. This can be an oddly overwhelming decision.
 
Can someone tell me why my recently purchased Panasonic 1080p display won't output at 1080p when I have my laptop plugged in through VGA? I've had another TV do this just fine, but my Mac won't let me set the resolution higher than 1400x1050. The higher options are there, but it always just reverts back to that resolution. Fuck.
 
I can tell the difference easily, but thats maybe cause I sit pretty close.
BTW, Mafia 2 looks absolutely amazing at 1080p, compared to 720p.
 
Jimmy Stav said:
Can someone tell me why my recently purchased Panasonic 1080p display won't output at 1080p when I have my laptop plugged in through VGA? I've had another TV do this just fine, but my Mac won't let me set the resolution higher than 1400x1050. The higher options are there, but it always just reverts back to that resolution. Fuck.
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I have a Panny plasma and had this problem. You can only get 1080p through HDMI. You need a mini-dvi (or whatever your Macs video output connect is) to HDMI cable.
 
modernkicks said:
I have a Panny plasma and had this problem. You can only get 1080p through HDMI. You need a mini-dvi (or whatever your Macs video output connect is) to HDMI cable.
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That's really weird, as it worked fine on my Samsung. This, and it's lack of audio input options is making me lean toward returning this thing.
 
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