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[kurisu_1974]

I'd like to see that research. So do you think that a large portion of America and Europe have had mental conditions on par with psychosis and schizophrenia? And how did they integrate so well with the rest of society without anyone noticing this severe mental condition that usually requires medication?

I'm not saying that at all. How many have had a sudden "religious awakening" as opposed to just being fed the doctrine since a young age?

 

[TheDreadBaron]

I'm not saying that all. How many have had a sudden "religious awakening" as opposed to just being fed the doctrine since a young age?

Having religious visions is literally a symptom of schizophrenia. My friend once told me he saw jesus on a cross floating above him, I didn’t know what that meant or what to make of it at the time. Later we would discover his schizophrenia was beginning to settle in as it often does late in adolescence.

 

[Blade2.0]

Christians framed the architecture of the “rights” of the United States of America.

Is it possible the definition of rights has changed with an ever evolving social movement that has expanded beyond… said original rights?

Just asking.

Edit: I think it’s further saddening, that you don’t think we can politely disagree. Like we did pretty much your entire existence in the USA. Does tolerance only flow one way?

There should be no tolerance of intolerance. Should I tolerate someone that thinks slavery should make a comeback?

 

[funkygunther]

I'd like to see that research.

DM me.

Or you could just Google "religion and schizophrenia" and see for yourself because this kind of stuff is free and open and not hidden behind a proselytist's pay wall.

 

[0neAnd0nly]

So I was a religion minor and grew up in a religious household, so I actually do know a thing or two about this stuff.

The disconnect between the Old Testament and New Testament is a problem in and of itself. If you truly feel that God has changed between these two time periods (notably, they're not that far apart in time, either as parts of the old Testament date to just a couple hundred years prior, and none of it can be conclusively dated to older than maybe the 7th century BC), then it undermines the idea that God is a perfect and infallible being.

Like if God goes from ragequitting and mass murdering and acting like a psycho to like a quiet chill guy who lays in the cut and let's his hippie son do the talking, that might be character growth but it sure is hard to reconcile with being infinite and all knowing and perfect.

Hey man, happy to discuss this with you!

Thank you for listing your background and giving context.

So, I will simply state an example of what I can relate it with.

What if you were a perfect human (of course, Christians would say no human can be without sin, but lets just pretend for argument), and you created a child. You were a perfect parent, but you child still ended up being a person who committed atrocious acts.

Does that make you imperfect, because what you created disappointed you?

God created us with free will upon design, from a Christian POV. That free will left a window for sin, by design. I still don't see how that negates His perfection?

I look forward to your response! Hope you have a great night dude!

 

[0neAnd0nly]

There should be no tolerance of intolerance. Should I tolerate someone that thinks slavery should make a comeback?

All I will say to your extreme example is that everybody should dislike that viewpoint if they have a modicum of moral decency. Christian speaking, slaves are a no-no.

But what is your solution to "intolerance" as defined by you? Violence? Education camps?

It's a slippery slope with scary implications. Who defines what is "intolerance" today and tomorrow, and what should happen with them?

Hope your night is still going well!

 

[kurisu_1974]

God created us with free will upon design, from a Christian POV. That free will left a window for sin, by design. I still don't see how that negates His perfection?

So this god could have created a perfect paradise but didn't. So then this god is indirectly responsible for all war and illness and suffering? It's all just some game or test, humanity be damned?

And another question: should we worship this entity and why? Or just fear it? Because in its omnipotence, it could easily prevent innocent children dying, but chooses not to? Regardless of the victim's faith, I should add. As if that does nothing, almost.

 

[0neAnd0nly]

So this god could have created a perfect paradise but didn't. So then this god is indirectly responsible for all war and illness and suffering? It's all just some game or test, humanity be damned?

And another question: should we worship this entity and why? Or just fear it? Because in its omnipotence, it could easily prevent innocent children dying, but chooses not to? Regardless of the victim's faith, I should add. As if that does nothing, almost.

God gave free will, illness is a product of time and environment (cancers, environmental damage, etc.). Yes, people do die from disease. I am going through this now with someone close to me.

That doesn't mean God doesn't care. God did create a paradise, earth isn't it.

I am sorry to disappoint, I don't have every answer. Why do kids die? I don't know, I hate it. I do. Severely. Somethings I can not know the answer to, faith or science doesn't always fill those gaps.

That's the honest truth man.

Hope your night is great, sorry if my answer is underwhelming to you.

I do believe I will probably step away from this thread from here on out, as religious debate gets kind of circular, especially online. Not at all trying to ignore anyone and I respect you all disagree or agree with me. Doesn't matter one bit!

 

[kurisu_1974]

Science can at least explain why people fall ill or die, it seems to take some cognitive dissonance on the part of a believer to do the same. And the part where "this time on earth is meant for suffering, just wait for the awesome times in paradise/heaven" isn't really doing it for me. In fact, I think it's quite dangerous to value life on earth so little and focus on a hypothetical afterlife.

 

[0neAnd0nly]

Science can at least explain why people fall ill or die, it seems to take some cognitive dissonance on the part of a believer to do the same. And the part where "this time on earth is meant for suffering, just wait for the awesome times in paradise/heaven" isn't really doing it for me. In fact, I think it's quite dangerous to value life on earth so little and focus on a hypothetical afterlife.

I don’t think we are meant to devalue life on earth at all.

But hey man, it’s all good! I understand it’s hard not to have full answers on something so key.

Have a great night!

 

[Wildebeest]

"It's all about free will man, you probably don't understand, but now please excuse me I've got to go I'm very busy. I love you all, please accept the truth."

Yeah, yeah, we know how it goes.

 

[0neAnd0nly]

"It's all about free will man, you probably don't understand, but now please excuse me I've got to go I'm very busy. I love you all, please accept the truth."

Yeah, yeah, we know how it goes.

I assume that was meant for me.

Just feel like it goes circular man, that’s all. Not scared of discussion, but without faith / with faith causes a bit of a circular response.

Anyhow, just don’t want to keep debating. My grandmother is in ICU with a bleak outlook and it’s been a bit of a taxing day. That’s all.

In what way would you prefer me to bow out, if not with good wishes / intent.

I try to be like this on Neogaf all the time in most threads, not just this one. I like to end it on positivity.

 

[kurisu_1974]

You know why it's circular right?

Because you claim the Bible is the word of god. Then we ask, but how can you know that? "Because the Bible tells us this!" But how can we be sure that the Bible is right? "The Bible is without error, infallible". OK and how can we be sure of that? "Because it is the word of god!"

 

[0neAnd0nly]

You know why it's circular right?

Because you claim the Bible is the word of god. Then we ask, but how can you know that? "Because the Bible tells us this!" But how can we be sure that the Bible is right? "The Bible is without error, infallible". OK and how can we be sure of that? "Because it is the word of god!"

Yeah man. It is true. Belief is based on faith.

I get it.

 

[kurisu_1974]

But what is the faith based on? Still the 100 dollar question no one answered.

 

[0neAnd0nly]

But what is the faith based on? Still the 100 dollar question no one answered.

For me personally?

Moments I have felt a miracle occurred. Moments prayers have been answered. Walking through scripture that applies to something in my life currently. A belief in the path. How happy I am when I focus on my faith compared to when I am away from it. The way it inspires me to live better, to do better for others.

A broader answer? An ancient text that we believe has structured society and our world, that has remained in tact (I realize this is debatable by some) through many generations. The story of our beginnings.

I understand it would sound like noise to an non believer, and I accept that. Still wish nothing but respect, and love!

Not trying to run, but it has indeed been a taxing day for me. Take it easy man! Sorry if my answers aren’t good enough or annoy you. I am being as genuine as I feel I can be.

 

[FunkMiller]

Nobody is forcing you to believe, but the ad hominem attacks on believers in this thread is a bit unfortunate. That goes for a lot of the posters. Why can't we just politely disagree? I have enjoyed dialogue on many things on GAF because we can have it, even if I am in the minority in my views, but respect for each other seems to be a good base to start with so we have actual constructive debate and keep civility for each other.

You have to remember that your religious belief comes with some truly abhorrent attitudes towards certain sections of our society. Any attack you feel is levelled against you, is actually levelled against the intolerance your religion propagates. Please don’t ever think any of us dislike anyone on a personal level. We’re consistently trying to play the ball, not the man, but human nature - and communication via an imperfect medium - dictates it can sometimes come across as more personal than it is.

 

[0neAnd0nly]

You have to remember that your religious belief comes with some truly abhorrent attitudes towards certain sections of our society. Any attack you feel is levelled against you, is actually levelled against the intolerance your religion propagates. Please don’t ever think any of us dislike anyone on a personal level. We’re trying to play the ball, not the man!

Yeah man, for what it’s worth

You have to remember that your religious belief comes with some truly abhorrent attitudes towards certain sections of our society. Any attack you feel is levelled against you, is actually levelled against the intolerance your religion propagates. Please don’t ever think any of us dislike anyone on a personal level. We’re consistently trying to play the ball, not the man, but human nature - and communication via an imperfect medium - dictates it can sometimes come across as more personal than it is.

I think a true Christian, and how the Bible teaches the New Testament knows it isn’t a hatred of those you are referring to, just a sadness of the sin itself.

I don’t hate my fellow neighbor for any sin, and I would think you would be surprised at my circle of people and who comprises it.

I pray for those who I think sin, but that isn’t to say I wish any Ill will on them, I just want a good future for them. I sin. We all do. My job is not judgement.

Much love dude. Sincerely!

 

[FunkMiller]

I think a true Christian, and how the Bible teaches the New Testament knows it isn’t a hatred of those you are referring to, just a sadness of the sin itself.

I don’t hate my fellow neighbor for any sin, and I would think you would be surprised at my circle of people and who comprises it.

I pray for those who I think sin, but that isn’t to say I wish any I’ll will on them, I just want a good future for them. I sin. We all do. My job is not judgement.

Much love dude. Sincerely!

Mate… they’re not sinning. They’re not doing anything wrong. Until you can understand that, you’ll continue to propagate and advance that hatred and bigotry, whether you mean to or not.

 

[0neAnd0nly]

Mate… they’re not sinning. They’re not doing anything wrong. Until you can understand that, you’ll continue to propagate and advance that hatred and bigotry, whether you mean to or not.

Respectfully, we all sin. I don’t know 100% of who you are referring too, just that everybody sins.

No offense is intended.

 

[kurisu_1974]

How can someone who does not acknowledge divine law even sin? I mean from the perspective outside of those that do subscribe to these laws.

 

[FunkMiller]

Respectfully, we all sin. I don’t know 100% of who you are referring too, just that everybody sins.

No offense is intended.

Do you understand how offensive it is to others to point a finger and say they are sinners? That they are doing anything wrong with their lives?

And no offence may be intended, but it's still happening! You're still sowing division and intolerance, even if you do not mean to (which I do not believe you do, truly). Does that bother you?

 

[Ulysses 31]

Respectfully, we all sin.

Are we born guilty in sin?

 

[DavidGzz]

It's crazy to imagine this is all an accident.

It's crazy to imagine a being powerful enough to create it all.

I go back and forth. Sometimes I look at my kids or a sunset and can't imagine there not being a creator of something so wonderful. Then sometimes I wonder how a god can let certain things just happen if he is all-powerful. I don't see how anyone can judge what someone believes one way or the other.

Just let people be.

 

[Wildebeest]

I assume that was meant for me.

Just feel like it goes circular man, that’s all. Not scared of discussion, but without faith / with faith causes a bit of a circular response.

Anyhow, just don’t want to keep debating. My grandmother is in ICU with a bleak outlook and it’s been a bit of a taxing day. That’s all.

In what way would you prefer me to bow out, if not with good wishes / intent.

I try to be like this on Neogaf all the time in most threads, not just this one. I like to end it on positivity.

It depends on what you think faith is. In Catholic school I was told that faith is believing that Australia exists even if I have never been there. It is something like a rational argument for why the stories we tell each other must be true, otherwise we would not tell them to each other. Later I learned much more sophisticated positions on faith. Such as you don't need much "faith" to believe in Australia since it isn't a paradoxical or irrational concept which requires a tremendous effort to rationalize or very odd additional concepts like "free will" which somehow can be used to justify the same things if you take pro or anti "free will" positions. Although the pro and anti "free will" faithful will probably want to fight each other to the death. So now I think that faith is something like acting like there is a point to acting somewhat decently, even though you don't need a sort of "know it all" faith which thinks that all irrational and paradoxical concepts can be rationalized with a wave of the hand.

 

[FunkMiller]

Just let people be.

Nothing would give me greater pleasure. But religious people constantly push their religious beliefs on others, affecting their lives. Look at what happened in the US last week.

If religious folk would just leave everybody else alone, and conduct only their lives according to their beliefs, everything would be fine.

 

[Rentahamster]

It depends on what you think faith is.

Does it depend on what people think it is? It is defined in the Bible.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 11 - King James Version

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered...

www.biblegateway.com

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Wildebeest]

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

That definition is does not conflict with what I described at all. It says that faith is its own proof, not that you need very clever sounding rationalizations to own people who question you.

 

[Rentahamster]

That definition is does not conflict with what I described at all. It says that faith is its own proof, not that you need very clever sounding rationalizations to own people who question you.

I'm pointing out that you and a whole bunch of other people have their own personal idea of what they "think" faith is. A mortal interpretation.

What does the Hebrews 11 definition of faith have to do with "acting like there is a point to acting somewhat decently"? Faith is faith is faith in God, no matter the decency. You will do as commanded because you have faith in God, not because the command is deemed decent by you. Even if the command might be considered indecent.

 

[GymWolf]

Science can at least explain why people fall ill or die, it seems to take some cognitive dissonance on the part of a believer to do the same. And the part where "this time on earth is meant for suffering, just wait for the awesome times in paradise/heaven" isn't really doing it for me. In fact, I think it's quite dangerous to value life on earth so little and focus on a hypothetical afterlife.

Not even joking, but sometimes i ask myself what is exactly the difference between believing in god and believing in vampires and werewolves?

Not sure why believing the existence of the latter sends you in a looney bin but believing in a dude who transform blood in wine and make bread from stones is A-ok.

It is as bizzarre as it is funny.

Onestly i give more credit to people who believe in aliens because we know shit about the rest of the universe.

 

[GymWolf]

But what is the faith based on? Still the 100 dollar question no one answered.

Indoctrination from family mostly.

A new generation without old people talking about religions would never believe such a thing in modern times where science explain everything (or almost everything)

 

[Wildebeest]

I'm pointing out that you and a whole bunch of other people have their own personal idea of what they "think" faith is. A mortal interpretation.

What does the Hebrews 11 definition of faith have to do with "acting like there is a point to acting somewhat decently"? Faith is faith is faith in God, no matter the decency. You will do as commanded because you have faith in God, not because the command is deemed decent by you. Even if the command might be considered indecent.

I will say that behaving somewhat decently is an act of faith because it is irrational and paradoxical. The only thing backing it up is a hope that it is a good idea and that other people think it is a good idea also. If you actually have a direct line to god like Abraham, then perhaps your faith will be tested in a more direct way, such as God asking you to kill your firstborn? Do you think in that example, god will be easily brushed off with rationalizations and appeals to free will? I don't make any special claim about the overall result of God's commandments or the bible being to make people act somewhat decently.

 

[kurisu_1974]

TIL before the Christian faith took hold and erased all culture that came before it, there were no decent human beings.

 

[funkygunther]

I will say that behaving somewhat decently is an act of faith because it is irrational and paradoxical.

that is just your own misanthropy showing, being decent to each other is the reason we're still here

 

[Wildebeest]

that is just your own misanthropy showing, being decent to each other is the reason we're still here

You could make an equally wise sounding argument, saying we are still here because people are prepared to act monstrously to each other and make brutal decisions at key points. The so-called wisdom of "pure reason" can be used to argue for anything.

 

[funkygunther]

You could make an equally wise sounding argument, saying we are still here because people are prepared to act monstrously to each other and make brutal decisions at key points. The so-called wisdom of "pure reason" can be used to argue for anything.

you're now changing the argument to be about making brutal decisions rather than what you originally said, which is that being decent is "irrational and paradoxical" which it can't be because by your logic we would have always been making more brutal decisions (of which I'm understanding to mean killing each other directly or indirectly) than not

 

[Chaplain]

edited

 

[Wildebeest]

you're now changing the argument to be about making brutal decisions rather than what you originally said, which is that being decent is "irrational and paradoxical" which it can't be because by your logic we would have always been making more brutal decisions (of which I'm understanding to mean killing each other directly or indirectly) than not

I'm seeing if I can make you understand my point that it is irrational for people to believe in "somewhat decentism", as it is based on hope. That reason can be used to argue for multiple equally wise sounding post hoc rationalizations can help show how overall it is paradoxical. To avoid this paradox, you can choose one rationalization and put your irrational hope behind it, if you like. I can't stop you.

 

[funkygunther]

I'm seeing if I can make you understand my point that it is irrational for people to believe in "somewhat decentism", as it is based on hope. That reason can be used to argue for multiple equally wise sounding post hoc rationalizations can help show how overall it is paradoxical. To avoid this paradox, you can choose one rationalization and put your irrational hope behind it, if you like. I can't stop you.

prove it is based on hope

 

[kurisu_1974]

prove it is based on hope

What does that even mean, right?

It's getting weird.

I like it.

 

[Wildebeest]

prove it is based on hope

What this means is basically we decide what seems like "reason" to us based on our psychology, rather than some infallible step by step method of logic. You even accuse me of the psychology of misanthropy to explain away the strangeness of my conclusions, but still seem to reserve objective reason for yourself. I hope you don't want me to prove that we are humans who come to conclusions based on human psychology, as this seems self-evident.

 

[funkygunther]

What this means is basically we decide what seems like "reason" to us based on our psychology, rather than some infallible step by step method of logic. You even accuse me of the psychology of misanthropy to explain away the strangeness of my conclusions, but still seem to reserve objective reason for yourself. I hope you don't want me to prove that we are humans who come to conclusions based on human psychology, as this seems self-evident.

no what this means is any kind of evidence you can point to that being decent is based on hope, was expecting at least some observation of inherent selfishness to bolster your opinion

 

[RJMacready73]

Now remember lads, God give us free will and he loves us, you are free to choose whatever you want because Free will but just so you know, if you don't choose him with your free will you get to spend eternity in hell re-enacting Paul Walkers last moments on earth...

Love,

Magical Sky Daddy xoxo

 

[Chaplain]

Now remember lads, God give us free will and he loves us, you are free to choose whatever you want because Free will but just so you know, if you don't choose him with your free will you get to spend eternity in hell re-enacting Paul Walkers last moments on earth...

Love,

Magical Sky Daddy xoxo

This argument cuts both ways.

“A true opium of the people is a belief in nothingness after death—the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” (Polish philosopher and writer Czeslaw Milosz, Nobel Prize winner 1980)

 

[Sabotage]

This argument cuts both ways.

Indeed, if there is no God then evil and death win.

 

[Thaedolus]

This argument cuts both ways.

And why should any of that result in eternal suffering and torment from a supposedly just God? Justice only requires punishment proportional to the crime. Eternal damnation is therefore unjust by definition as it’s an infinite punishment for finite crimes. You can’t imagine a single act of cruelty a human is capable of that’s anywhere close.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Indeed, if there is no God then evil and death win.

Evil and death must be grateful to God. Those concepts wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Him.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

I've seen the good and the bad. The church I grew up in was amazing and I wouldn't be who I am today without my experience there. We did a ton of community service, I was a camp counselor for years, and spent several summers helping kids on a Native reservation in South Dakota.

About 15 years ago or so they started supporting gay people and lost like half the congregation. I still mostly have my Christian faith, but yeah pretty much lost my faith in "Christians" after that.

 

[funkygunther]

Evil and death must be grateful to God. Those concepts wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Him.

Only when those concept definitions exist in the microcosmic context of relation to God. Luckily death has a far more useful biological definition.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Indeed, if there is no God then evil and death win.

Evil and death are caused especially by people with power who believe in god. So without the idea of believing in god, what would change?