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[Extollere]

First of all, I want to say that these are not my videos, I just found them on Youtube, and I found them inspirational (or at least interesting) enough to share them here with the rest of you. These can be kindly removed at the request of anyone holding copy rights (etc), or by the creator of the video series.

The following is a set of videos from an ex Pentecostal-Christian believer turned atheist. These videos represent a self study from a person who is entirely aware of his previous religious convictions and how best to represent them to people who don't, or didn't believe in religion or God - as well as documenting his departure from such beliefs. Coming from a Christian family, and believing in my faith well past adolescence, these videos really hit home for me. In fact the parallels are so strong that I suspect many who have deconverted may have experienced similar things. For those who were always secular, agnostic, or atheist, this may still be an interesting study to watch, or to help gain a few insights into the ideas and mindsets of the religious and believers. They are very well edited, extraordinarily articulate, and at times fascinating to watch. If you have about an hour or two on your hands I highly encourage you to watch them. The real meat of these videos begins at part 2. Watch parts 0, & 1 only if you are interested in some background from the author; otherwise start with part 2.

0. & 1.

0 Overview
1 My Christian Life

2.

2.0 Deconversion: The God Concept
2.1 Deconversion: Prayer
2.2 Deconversion: Morality
2.3 Deconversion: Other Christians (Part 1)
2.3 Deconversion: Other Christians (Part 2)
2.4 Deconversion: The Bible (Part 1)
2.4 Deconversion: The Bible (Part 2)
2.5 Deconversion: Personal Relationship (Part 1)
2.5 Deconversion: Personal Relationship (Part 2)
2.6 Deconversion: The End
2.7 Deconversion: Losing God

3.

3.0 Atheism: A New Way of Seeing God
3.1 Atheism: Definitions
3.2 Atheism: Nontheistic Gods
3.3.1 Atheism: Scholars - Ingersoll & Mack
3.3.2 Atheism: Scholars - Sp○ng
3.3.3 Atheism: A History of God (Part 1) 01/07/11
3.3.3 Atheism: A History of God (Part 2) 03/18/11
3.4.1 Atheism: Evidence (Part 1) 05/10/11

I've posted all the links in here for convenience sake. This thread is being updated with new videos as they are periodically uploaded.Please bear in mind that I didn't make this thread to start any religious flame wars, or bickering over semantics and definitions (if you want to take it there that's your choice). I only wanted to highlight some very intriguing videos here that I thought at least a few members would enjoy. Hope you dig..

I've also added the author's youtube channel and twitter link in here for more information:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3
https://twitter.com/Evid3nc3

Author's homepage and further reading:
http://flavors.me/evid3nc3#_

 

[James Griggs]

I will check out the videos, as I find it interesting, but I can guess that the upcoming conversation will not end well.

 

[Keylime]

I like how the guy forms his arguments. Will watch the rest of the vids in a bit.

 

[Gilgamesh]

This guy talks like the G-Man. Weird pauses and emphases.

 

[speculawyer]

In a similar vein, I really enjoyed this entire podcast series about a Catholic priest that converted into an atheist working as a psychologist.

http://www.nogods.libsyn.com/

It is very uplifting. He views it as such a positive experience to move from shame and condemnation to intellectual freedom and appreciation for all people.

 

[Milk Lizard]

This guy talks like the G-Man. Weird pauses and emphases.

Thought the exact same thing.:lol

 

[noah111]

:lol :lol :lol

As for the OP though, i'm currently watching the first vid you posted. Definitely bookmarking this thread to watch the rest later, but so far i'm loving the way he's putting the argument itself.

Thanks for posting.

PS. I fucking love his odd voice. :lol

 

[Atramental]

This is relative to my interests. I will watch these after I get some work done.

 

[Mumei]

On the general subject of deconverseion, Julia Sweeney's Letting Go of God show is disarmingly charming.

The full thing can be found on Youtube, but it's a link to the CDs and I'm not sure about how kosher it is to link to them.

The theater review in the NYTimes was very positive, though.

And I just watched the first video, and I like the way he's set himself up. I'm going to start the second video now, but I thought I'd mention Sweeney's show since it fits in well with the subject.

 

[Druz]

I'm on Other Christians Part 2. Professor sounds like a nice fellow! I'm biased though.

 

[cjdunn]

Yep.

At first, I thought this was going to be a dry, analytical diary series, but him meeting the Professor by way of a snarky Amazon review made it really interesting.

 

[Atramental]

I'm at the professor part. Shit just got real.

 

[BowieZ]

I'm on Other Christians Part 2. Professor sounds like a nice fellow! I'm biased though.

Do you believe in the banana theory or is your avatar a mockery of it?

 

[Buckethead]

GAF hates religion. I never knew.

 

[noah111]

GAF hates religion. I never knew.

Thing is, this guy is what atheists should be. A lot out there are simply jackasses (including much of atheist-GAF) which makes honestly discussing anything a joke.

That's why I like this guys approach (from what I heard anyways), he's kind, respectful, logical, etc. Surprised that he's not agnostic tbh, but that's beside the point.

 

[Buckethead]

Thing is, this guy is what atheists should be. A lot out there are simply jackasses (including much of atheist-GAF) which makes honestly discussing anything a joke.

I'm watching it now and G-Man voice aside, your right these are solid videos.
I spoke too soon, I'm not religious, but I just get annoyed by GAFs constant hamfisted bashing.

 

[Druz]

Do you believe in the banana theory or is your avatar a mockery of it?

I believe the shape of a banana with a soda can tip was divinely crafted by God.

Thing is, this guy is what atheists should be. A lot out there are simply jackasses (including much of atheist-GAF) which makes honestly discussing anything a joke.

That's why I like this guys approach (from what I heard anyways), he's kind, respectful, logical, etc. Surprised that he's not agnostic tbh, but that's beside the point.

It's just too much work to be like him, though I'm sure most of us went through his same thought process.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

This guy talks like the G-Man. Weird pauses and emphases.

he also talks in a monotone which gets old in about 15 seconds

 

[Furcas]

Thing is, this guy is what atheists should be. A lot out there are simply jackasses (including much of atheist-GAF) which makes honestly discussing anything a joke.

That's why I like this guys approach (from what I heard anyways), he's kind, respectful, logical, etc.

He just hasn't fully realized how crazy his former beliefs are. Give him time.

 

[Atramental]

He just hasn't fully realized how crazy his former beliefs are. Give him time.

Well it's hard to convince people that they're wrong if you act like a total asshat about their beliefs. :lol

I think he does realize that his past beliefs were foolish/crazy, he's just being (or acting) respectful because he realizes that so many people take this stuff to heart and can be easily offended.

 

[Extollere]

On the general subject of deconverseion, Julia Sweeney's Letting Go of God show is disarmingly charming.

This is a great recommendation, thank-you for pointing it out. I heard Sweeney's audio recording while on a plane last year. It's entirely charming, hilarious, and even inspiring. I recommend it to everyone.

That's why I like this guys approach (from what I heard anyways), he's kind, respectful, logical, etc. Surprised that he's not agnostic tbh, but that's beside the point.

Judging by what I've seen and heard of him he's probably agnostic as well. I don't want to get into semantics, but it is possible to be both atheist and agnostic. Most atheists might also say they are agnostic, but only to a certain degree (that degree depends on the person). The term agnostic atheist is a person who does not believe in God, but is also uncertain of God's existence. It is opposed to the gnostic atheist viewpoint that says "there is no God" as a matter of fact. I presume most atheists would fall under the former (agnostic) but like I said this isn't a thread for that (at least hopefully not because some people get really defensive about their preconceived ideas of word definition).

he also talks in a monotone which gets old in about 15 seconds

Yes, it does get old. And then you forget about it and carry on... at least it didn't seem to bother me since the story was captivating. But I'm not the type that gets easily annoyed by speech patterns, or accents or what have you.

 

[noah111]

I spoke too soon, I'm not religious, but I just get annoyed by GAFs constant hamfisted bashing.

Same here, it gets quite old.. especially when you see several posters hone in on someone who may have said something that may have suggested that they may be a christian / muslim etc.

It gets ridiculous.

It's just too much work to be like him, though I'm sure most of us went through his same thought process.

Why? Is it that hard to respect someone's belief (even if you think

Spoiler

, i'm sorry, "KNOW"

) they're wrong?

I especially hate when people mock certain deities (jesus sucked this, muhammad bombed that), as you isolate yourself from all bounds discussion or bridging.

BTW i'm obviously not referring to you specifically in any of this, Druz.

He just hasn't fully realized how crazy his former beliefs are. Give him time.

Spoiler

Great example.

That's totally beside the point, which you don't seem to realize. 95% of the world could believe in a unicorn god and it still wouldn't be the point. There's a history to all these religions, a deep, complex, and often times enlightening history. We need to realize the circumstances in which these beliefs came to be, and what the causes for modern people to turn to them are. A big one of these (as touched on in the first vid) is the belief that the belief is believed. You shouldn't look at someone who is a hardcore christrian as a fool (even if he seems to be), because he has arrived at that place due to indoctrination and other circumstances, it was not chosen through a free mind. The opposite can be done as well, except it's simply education not indoctrination (no threats, no forcing, etc).

Sorry for the rant, but the way many atheists act today is incredibly counterproductive to the main goal, and that is seriously sad to see.

 

[TheExodu5]

He just hasn't fully realized how crazy his former beliefs are. Give him time.

Thanks for proving his point.

 

[Keylime]

Just finished watching the videos, and I think he does a very good job detailing his own journey.

What's interesting is that some people are going to point to this video and state that it confirms or denies their own beliefs without having gone through the same journey or studied the same texts as the content creator (supposedly) has.

This video in all reality should serve no other purpose than to drive each of us to either further verify or refute our own personal beliefs by continuing our own journeys...but most or all of us will just simply take this video at face value and either believe everything that was said (assume he's done his homework) or believe the video still leaves open the possibility of a God.

The video doesn't end as conclusively as I think the creator had hoped. Stating that God's existence creates a very complicated answer, therefore it is not the correct one is a very weak conclusion. It seemingly ignores that it's very possible a God does exist in the conclusion because it would be very inconvenient to explain and rationalize.

A very well put together video, regardless, just a weak conclusion in my opinion.

...

My own personal hang-up with God ultimately existing or not always comes back to the initial creation of everything. The Big Bang assumes that something existed in order for everything else to exist...but what caused the Big Bang to happen in the first place? How did all that matter get created?

One of the most basic laws of science is that matter is neither created nor destroyed...yet somehow everything had to start from nothing. Everything couldn't possibly just be...it had to be created.

Until this answer is resolved, I'll remain very open to the idea of God while not necessarily believing in him.

 

[Mumei]

I think Furcas makes a fair point that, after a number of years of becoming an atheist, it can sometimes be difficult to take religious beliefs seriously in the manner that Evid3nc3 does.

I'm not denying that it's sometime (often?) more effective to be polite and demonstrate that you sincerely understand their beliefs - but I became an atheist when I was thirteen; I spent a great deal of time after high school reading many of the books mentioned in those videos, and books on related subjects, and the more I've learned, the more it becomes difficult to respond in a respectful manner - even simply slipping into condescension - when someone claims the inerrancy or divinely inspired nature of the Bible.

Edit:

My own personal hang-up with God ultimately existing or not always comes back to the initial creation of everything. The Big Bang assumes that something existed in order for everything else to exist...but what caused the Big Bang to happen in the first place? How did all that matter get created?

One of the most basic laws of science is that matter is neither created nor destroyed...yet somehow everything had to start from nothing. Everything couldn't possibly just be...it had to be created.

Until this answer is resolved, I'll remain very open to the idea of God while not necessarily believing in him.

You may find this video interesting, then.

 

[cjdunn]

Pardon the geek-out, but, for me, the best part... is the graphic design.

No seriously: concise illustrations, clean lines, colors matching meanings/associations.

 

[Keylime]

You may find this video interesting, then.

Oh fuck...an hour long video from Dawkins.

You just caused me not to go to bed.

 

[Furcas]

Well it's hard to convince people that they're wrong if you act like a total asshat about their beliefs. :lol

Sorry for the rant, but the way many atheists act today is incredibly counterproductive to the main goal, and that is seriously sad to see.

You guys don't really think that religious believers can be convinced by rational arguments, no matter how nice and respectful and polite, do you? I mean, you can't possibly be that fucking deluded, can you?


No, of course you're not that fucking deluded. You know perfectly well that arguments don't work, and therefore that, as far as convincing religious believers goes, it's completely and utterly irrelevant that we be respectful or not. So why do you care so much that we show respect for religious insanity?

Because you're gutless pussies, that's why. You don't give a shit about truth and rationality, all you're interested in is preserving harmony. All this direct, forthright criticism of unfounded beliefs makes you uncomfortable, doesn't it? You don't like it when those mean, strident atheists stop pretending that the people around us are all nice, intelligent, and rational.

Of course, actually admitting that you feel this way would expose you as a gutless pussy, so you can't do it. Consequently, you're forced to fool yourself into believing that the true reason you're preserving the status quo... is that it's the best way to change things. Because nice, polite debate with religious believers has been such a successful strategy these last fifty years.

 

[Mumei]

Oh fuck...an hour long video from Dawkins.

You just caused me not to go to bed.

:lol

Well, Lawrence Krauss, a professor of physics.

But yes, it does explain the concept of a "universe from nothing," as the title suggests. It's rather interesting, though I obviously don't understand all of it.

 

[YYZ]

This is a really good series of videos. I don't think it's going to convince any other believers from instantly converting, but it might be a good catalyst. It took him years to realize and only because he wanted to. Unfortunately, most Christians I know and like are stuck in that "room" that he describes in one of the videos. They have no reason to come out and likely never will. Their lives are good though, I can't blame them.

 

[Mumei]

You guys don't really think that religious believers can be convinced by rational arguments, no matter how nice and respectful and polite, do you? I mean, you can't possibly be that fucking deluded, can you?


No, of course you're not that fucking deluded. You know perfectly well that arguments don't work, and therefore that, as far as convincing religious believers goes, it's completely and utterly irrelevant that we be respectful or not. So why do you care so much that we show respect for religious insanity?

Because you're gutless pussies, that's why. You don't give a shit about truth and rationality, all you're interested in is preserving harmony. All this direct, forthright criticism of unfounded beliefs makes you uncomfortable, doesn't it? You don't like it when those mean, strident atheists stop pretending that the people around us are all nice, intelligent, rational people.

Of course, actually admitting that you feel this way would expose you as a gutless pussy, so you can't do it. Consequently, you're forced to fool yourself into believing that the true reason you're preserving the status quo... is that it's the best way to change things. Because nice, polite debate with religious believers has been such a successful strategy these last fifty years.

You don't believe that rational arguments can convince people? Rational arguments are all you have; if they aren't going to work, you may as well not try.

 

[Furcas]

You don't believe that rational arguments can convince people?

Rational arguments cannot convince the vast, vast majority of religious believers, no. They can't be convinced because religious thinking is specifically designed to be impervious to reason.

Rational arguments are all you have; if they aren't going to work, you may as well not try.

There are other ways to change a society. For example, the gay movement didn't further their cause with polite arguments, because they were aware that their opponents were unlikely to be enlightened anyway. Instead they did everything they could to get out of the closet they had been forced into by the rest of society, and they demonized their opponents by portraying them as bigots. The guy who came up with the word 'homophobe' is a genius.

 

[Atramental]

You guys don't really think that religious believers can be convinced by rational arguments, no matter how nice and respectful and polite, do you? I mean, you can't possibly be that fucking deluded, can you?


No, of course you're not that fucking deluded. You know perfectly well that arguments don't work, and therefore that, as far as convincing religious believers goes, it's completely and utterly irrelevant that we be respectful or not. So why do you care so much that we show respect for religious insanity?

Because you're gutless pussies, that's why. You don't give a shit about truth and rationality, all you're interested in is preserving harmony. All this direct, forthright criticism of unfounded beliefs makes you uncomfortable, doesn't it? You don't like it when those mean, strident atheists stop pretending that the people around us are all nice, intelligent, and rational.

Of course, actually admitting that you feel this way would expose you as a gutless pussy, so you can't do it. Consequently, you're forced to fool yourself into believing that the true reason you're preserving the status quo... is that it's the best way to change things. Because nice, polite debate with religious believers has been such a successful strategy these last fifty years.

So how do you think I went from being a devout Christian to an atheist? I can assure you that it was not because an atheist spoke to me in a condescending manner.

 

[Furcas]

So how do you think I went from being a devout Christian to an atheist? I can assure you that it was not because an atheist spoke to me in a condescending manner.

Neither was it because an atheist spoke to you politely. I can almost guarantee that it's your own thinking that led you to deconvert. At the very most, an atheist might have helped you along a little bit.

 

[noah111]

My own personal hang-up with God ultimately existing or not always comes back to the initial creation of everything. The Big Bang assumes that something existed in order for everything else to exist...but what caused the Big Bang to happen in the first place? How did all that matter get created?

One of the most basic laws of science is that matter is neither created nor destroyed...yet somehow everything had to start from nothing. Everything couldn't possibly just be...it had to be created.

Until this answer is resolved, I'll remain very open to the idea of God while not necessarily believing in him.

I plan on watching them tomorrow, but I was already expecting a 'weak' conclusion tbh, which is alright imo for what he seems to be going for so far (i'm on 2.1).

As for the idea of the big bang and god, I would disagree. For one, we don't know that nothing existed in the first place. Our universe could have arrived at the consequence of another for all we know. The topic is so open ended with question and unknowns that a straight cut 'god may exist or god does not' question on the creation of this universe doesn't suffice.

Let's say hypothetically the big bang was due to x circumstances (be it whatever theory), after that would you have to say god doesn't exist for certain now? There have always been times in our history where we have assumed a topic of knowledge was as far as we could question, comprehend or discover, but time and time again that field grows larger. We now find ourselves not asking things like what keeps the planets afloat (god?), but what caused the big bang, the beginning of our universe (god)? This will go on for millenia... as far as i'm concerned, the belief in a possible supreme being of sorts will be with us for a very long time. The perspective, meaning and interpretation of the word/idea might change over time (say parts of the bible are "debunked", or illogical notions of the modern 'god' acknowledged) as it has in the past, but the idea that somewhere there may be someone or something that is responsible for our whole existence, will (imo) be a lurking question for many generations.

Personally I hope in the future it is eventually realized that religions are simply interpretations of events, ideas, and inevitably our human history. I wouldn't mind the concept of a god being retained at all, as long as it isn't tied to dogmas and superstitions, but becomes more of a personal thought or opinion, nothing more.

Sorry for the rant (again), was recently discussing stuff like this with my muslim family and I think i'm breaking through a bit of the more upheld ideas.

 

[Furcas]

Not really. Most atheists I've come across threw insults instead of actually make me question my belief in God. What a lot of atheists don't seem to realize is that a believer BELIEVES they believe. As believers, we are taught that is WRONG, and that we should believe 100%. If you are going to de-convert someone, strike at the root: make them question their belief and their entire religious life up until that point.

Remember: we have been taught since we were children that there is a God. You could even call it brain washing. De-conversion is more than telling a believer logic as if they were fact.

Does anyone actually read my posts? I specifically did not say that forthright criticism was an effective way of deconverting someone. I said that nice, respecful criticism wasn't any better, because arguments OF ANY KIND do not work.

Are you saying that this wasn't the case with you? That you read or heard an argument (expressed respectfully) and that you said to yourself, "Hmmm, yeah, he's right, I guess that I have been deluding myself all these years."?

 

[Mumei]

Rational arguments cannot convince the vast, vast majority of religious believers, no. They can't be convinced because religious thinking is specifically designed to be impervious to reason.

There are other ways to change a society. For example, the gay movement didn't further their cause with polite arguments, because they were aware that their opponents were unlikely to be enlightened anyway. Instead they did everything they could to get out of the closet they had been forced into by the rest of society, and they demonized their opponents by portraying them as bigots. The guy who came up with the word 'homophobe' is a genius.

I think it's an apples-to-oranges comparison, and I'm not sure I see the positive effect.

I'm not saying that there's no place for it - for instance, I enjoy PZ Myers' blog, I enjoy Hitchens when he doesn't talk about things relating to war, and I've enjoyed many of Dawkins' books; I do think that there's a place for disrespect, at least of bad ideas.

But in terms of interpersonal interaction - for instance, over this message board - I think people are better served by respectful interaction.

And as a member of the gay community, from my experience it is perfectly possible to convince someone with reasoned arguments that, for instance, the nonrecognition of same-sex marriages is discriminatory, or that DADT serves no legitimate purpose.

Edit: I was missing the fact that you didn't think that criticism was an effective way of de-converting someone; I thought you were criticizing the method because you were implying that yours worked better.

 

[Monocle]

Thank you for these. I just watched the first video and I mean to finish the rest tonight. Very interesting so far.

 

[Furcas]

I think it's an apples-to-oranges comparison, and I'm not sure I see the positive effect.

The positive effect is the disappearance of the societal norm that dictates that we should all pretend that ridiculous beliefs are not ridiculous.

 

[BowieZ]

I believe the shape of a banana with a soda can tip was divinely crafted by God.

:lol I guess not then

 

[Zaptruder]

The positive effect is the disappearance of the societal norm that dictates that we should all pretend that ridiculous beliefs are not ridiculous.

Multiple angles of attack. Multiple angles of agitation.

One approach doesn't work for everyone.

Especially when atheism (despite it's growth) hasn't reached a necessary critical mass where the things that we believe, the ideas that drive us are readily and easily transparent to society.

Hell, religious still by far have that critical mass where they can dismiss atheists as absurd (to the unsure bystander)... and they do so without having the backing of any reason/rationality/logic/evidence/etc.

 

[noah111]

You guys don't really think that religious believers can be convinced by rational arguments, no matter how nice and respectful and polite, do you? I mean, you can't possibly be that fucking deluded, can you?


No, of course you're not that fucking deluded. You know perfectly well that arguments don't work, and therefore that, as far as convincing religious believers goes, it's completely and utterly irrelevant that we be respectful or not. So why do you care so much that we show respect for religious insanity?

Because you're gutless pussies, that's why. You don't give a shit about truth and rationality, all you're interested in is preserving harmony. All this direct, forthright criticism of unfounded beliefs makes you uncomfortable, doesn't it? You don't like it when those mean, strident atheists stop pretending that the people around us are all nice, intelligent, and rational.

Of course, actually admitting that you feel this way would expose you as a gutless pussy, so you can't do it. Consequently, you're forced to fool yourself into believing that the true reason you're preserving the status quo... is that it's the best way to change things. Because nice, polite debate with religious believers has been such a successful strategy these last fifty years.

What in the holly fuck? :lol :lol Wow man, I didn't expect that.

Firstly, you need to calm down. I'm sorry if I offended you by saying my opinion that atheists are being counterproductive, but it's only my opinion and you don't have to get personal about it.

Secondly, what does it mean to be a 'gutless pussy' exactly? Because I don't look at a man wearing a turban with disgust means i'm a gutless? Let me make something clear, because you obviously still don't get it at all. The only reason that man wearing that turban is what he is, is due to circumstances in the environment he grew up in. He didn't choose that, he was guided into it. When you realize this you understand that you may have been lucky enough to have been set on a certain random path which allowed you to question things, where someone else might not have had such a convenience because they were so "brainwashed" as you might say.

Bro, I honestly do care about truth and rationality, and I honestly do realize that much of the world is highly unrational (largely due to religious values), but shitting in their face is not going to get anything done. I'm not pretending anything, how can you know how I feel? I may look into my mothers eyes as she praises god for an amazing grandchild, and absolutely know that statement is quite stupid. But again I need to understand why she thinks that way. It's not because her brain is dysfunctional and she's lower than me, it's just due to the life that she led and the things she encountered.

I don't really expect you to understand going off of your post, but just know that there are other ways of educating other than hate and lowering others. Preserving harmony is a meaningless notion you're putting out there as it has nothing to do with the way I approach the topic. Making someone question their specific religion isn't as simple as you're making it out to be. One little argument with someone, kind or not, isn't going to convert a priest. However it IS possible, you just have to go at it from their side not yours. Whatever though, you can believe what you believe just don't call me out thinking I secretly have the same thought patterns as you.

 

[racerx]

As a former atheist who was a former Christian, I went through many of thought processes and steps he did.

But in the end, like others, the thing that convinces anyone that God exists is through their own personal experience.

 

[Furcas]

Multiple angles of attack. Multiple angles of agitation.

One approach doesn't work for everyone.

Yes, but why are you saying that to me? It's not 'militant', forthright atheists like me who are telling the polite atheists that their approach is harmful and that they should be more like us. It's always the other way around.

 

[Atramental]

What in the holly fuck? :lol :lol Wow man, I didn't expect that.

Firstly, you need to calm down. I'm sorry if I offended you by saying my opinion that atheists are being counterproductive, but it's only my opinion and you don't have to get personal about it.

Secondly, what does it mean to be a 'gutless pussy' exactly? Because I don't look at a man wearing a turban with disgust means i'm a gutless? Let me make something clear, because you obviously still don't get it at all. The only reason that man wearing that turban is what he is, is due to circumstances in the environment he grew up in. He didn't choose that, he was guided into it. When you realize this you understand that you may have been lucky enough to have been set on a certain random path which allowed you to question things, where someone else might not have had such a convenience because they were so "brainwashed" as you might say.

Bro, I honestly do care about truth and rationality, and I honestly do realize that much of the world is highly unrational (largely due to religious values), but shitting in their face is not going to get anything done. I'm not pretending anything, how can you know how I feel? I may look into my mothers eyes as she praises god for an amazing grandchild, and absolutely know that statement is quite stupid. But again I need to understand why she thinks that way. It's not because her brain is dysfunctional and she's lower than me, it's just due to the life that she led and the things she encountered.

I don't really expect you to understand going off of your post, but just know that there are other ways of educating other than hate and lowering others. Preserving harmony is a meaningless notion you're putting out there as it has nothing to do with the way I approach the topic. Making someone question their specific religion isn't as simple as you're making it out to be. One little argument with someone, kind or not, isn't going to convert a priest. However it IS possible, you just have to go at it from their side not yours. Whatever though, you can believe what you believe just don't call me out thinking I secretly have the same thought patterns as you.

Nicely said.

 

[Zaptruder]

Yes, but why are you saying that to me? It's not 'militant', forthright atheists like me who are telling the polite atheists that their approach is harmful and that they should be more forthright. It's always the other way around.

Because the tact you take embodies the typical approach, and you're also arguing it seems against the 'soft' point of view, rather than arguing for a hard approach.

It may not be what you intended, but that's how you've come off in this thread. It may be failure of reading comprehension in many... but it also indicates that your ideas can be better conveyed.

 

[xelv]

I really enjoyed watching these videos. I will definitely favorite this and show it to my girlfriend and friends. Thank you for letting us know about it.

 

[Mumei]

Yes, but why are you saying that to me? It's not 'militant', forthright atheists like me who are telling the polite atheists that their approach is harmful and that they should be more like us. It's always the other way around.

I've read numerous criticisms of polite atheists by 'militant' atheists that their methods are ineffective and counterproductive because they give undue respect to religious ideas - an argument you've made in this thread - so I'm not sure that that is true.

 

[Keylime]

Just finished watching the Lawrence Krauss video. Thanks for posting that Mumei, was incredibly awesome. I forgot how much of a hard-on I get for this type of discussion.

As for the idea of the big bang and god, I would disagree. For one, we don't know that nothing existed in the first place. Our universe could have arrived at the consequence of another for all we know. The topic is so open ended with question and unknowns that a straight cut 'god may exist or god does not' question on the creation of this universe doesn't suffice.

Let's say hypothetically the big bang was due to x circumstances (be it whatever theory), after that would you have to say god doesn't exist for certain now? There have always been times in our history where we have assumed a topic of knowledge was as far as we could question, comprehend or discover, but time and time again that field grows larger. We now find ourselves not asking things like what keeps the planets afloat (god?), but what caused the big bang, the beginning of our universe (god)?

I think my biggest problem is that my brain can't comprehend (and nothing I've seen or heard has convinced me otherwise despite my own mental capacity) that you can have something from nothing.

In the video I just watched from Lawrence Krauss, he talks about how a flat universe can be created from nothing due to various theories. The problem is that that theory is entirely derived from reverse engineering our current conditions. Based on our observations of "now" we can determine what things were like then.

The concept of nothing creating something that Krauss talks about still depends on these theories explaining how nothing creates something...but what created the laws in which these theories operate? Mathematically it all works out, but practically it doesn't.

...now it's entirely possible I don't quite get what Krauss was getting at in the lecture I just watched, so perhaps it'd be best if I spent time reading his work...however I still can't grasp how nothing creates something, even if it's explained with math or theory. The laws of the universe that we're interpreting to discover it's origin had to have come from something.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

The best gift my parents gave me was never forcing any religious belief on me. Now as an adult I'm even willing to question my preconceptions of reality...