ronaldthump
Member
if you put it like that with hyperbolic patch sizes ...
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
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A couple devs claim Switch patch sizes can be sometimes limited & other hurdles occur
- Thread starter Atheerios
- Start date
if you put it like that with hyperbolic patch sizes ...
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Renna Hazel
Member
My entire point was that I prefer games release completed, so I would have preferred the game be delayed and complete before releasing.
Agreed, this is something worth complaining about and it's pretty ridiculous that it can't be done.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
That's not even a solution. Orvatbleast one that's had any serious through put into it. Say you have a game with hundreds a of gb's worth of patches. Are you just going to tell the consumer (who isn't tech savy).to micro manage that? What if god forbid you need to patch a second game or a third or a fifth or a few hundred? No foresight at all had been put into that "solution".
Principate
Saint Titanfall
You act as if I'm being hybolic but I'be experienced multiple of these. They really do get that ridiculous sometimes that's a fact.
Consumers deal with space restrictions literally all the time on their smart phones. They are not children . We live in a modern world. Let consumers decide whether hey have the space or not. If they don't, simply tell them what is in the patch and inform them they can keep playing even without the patch if they choose.
Nintendo needs no third quarter defense on this garbage.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the devs are lazy, or maliciously doing it. It's more the case that without any external restrictions, there's no incentive to go the extra mile.
Devs have always had to scrimp and scrounge to get a "perfect" version of a game on a single storage medium, anywhere from 4k to 14gb or whatever. This led to all kinds of technical wizardry in terms of asset re-use, cutting of unnecessary content, and compression.
It's good that they have the free reign now to make the game they want to make with only the other normal restrictions they have (money, time, etc) placed upon them, but it's definitely not fun for some users who live with the reality of data caps or slow connection speeds, or limited free time they spend waiting for patch downloads instead of playing.
Of course assets are bundled together, but I'm sure more could be done to optimize these bundles both for gameplay and patches. Things like devs getting their games down to half their size a few months after release definitely show this.
Vegetable Lasagna
Member
WTF are you even talking about? What does a pc/console sku of a game and it's mobile sku have to do with each other? Please explain.
DeuceGamer
Member
Which Nintendo rules are preventing them from releasing the patch?
Principate
Saint Titanfall
The average smart phone patch doesn't come anywhere close to current game patches do. If your going to make such an argument at least bring up something comparable. Like you said modern games are extremely complex and that can come with extremely large patch sizes.
Problem is memory is far more expensive on mobile devices than it is on consoles and pc.
Vegetable Lasagna
Member
I don't even get what this has to do with the NBA Playground devs or any devs for the matter. This is how the UE4 engine works and any modern engine will work. It's how Unity3D works. If you want smaller patches the software is going to suffer for it. Your experience and disc space is going to suffer for it. Pretty standard concept. Again, there is no issue here other than Nintendo still functioning as if it's the stone-age.
And what more can be done? The NBA Playground devs are using the features UE4 provides them. If you think you can build a more efficient engine go tell Epic how it can be done. You'll make a lot of money, trust me.
phantasmic_glaive
Member
...it's uh.. not 2006 anymore? These companies have policies for bringing games out late to their system. If a small dev team has the chance to bring the game to all systems at once, then it's better for em and us. Did you read what he said? The system is brand fuckin new and they couldn't get it out. And would probably have to wait even longer if it had came to every other system instead.
No, it's fucking dumb to complain about not having 3rd party support, but insist on hindering the support with their modest 32gb crap and the run around.
Either that or get used to hearing "Switch version?".
Now, I haven't played this game since it first came out and the shoot timing been insane. I heard they updated it(the PS4 version) to fix it. If this is the update is to fix that, Nintendo needs to let it slide, otherwise the game is broken and needs fixing.
come the fuck on, even this dev said that they were able to reduce the game size from 7 GB to 3.5 GB
is the game SUFFERING for it? no
Principate
Saint Titanfall
This entire thread? The advocacy of no limitations whatsoever put on handheld gaming device. We're not dealing with 3DS games anymore those days are long over. They maybe stripped down current gen games on the switch now and in the future but they're current gen games none the less and it's not hard to balloon up a patch for no good reason.
Smartphone users frequently run out of space due to music, photos and videos they take, let alone all the apps they download. Again , this isn't about comparable patch sizes it is about technical knowledge since your former weak argument tried to use that as a shield to defend Nintendo here.
My point is consumers know how to deal with storage space. They do it all the time. Switch is literally no different in this regard. Let them decide so devs can deliver the best experience possible and consumers can choose when it matters.
Edit: to put an even finer point on it, if you limit patch size what is next? Can't release a game because it exceeds some arbitrary limit? Modern games are big. Nintendo better figure out how to get with the times.
Dsyndrome
Member
Patch still isn't out, is it?
Patch sizes have been getting bigger, certainly increasing over the course of this gen. Multi-GB updates are a regular occurrence on PS4, even day 1 updates that size. It's nuts. Unless devs are limited, they'll always take the path of least resistance and never care about update file sizes.
When you have the insane patch sizes on consoles, like the 30GB update for Doom that pushes the full game size to 70GB, they're just not feasible on handhelds with flash memory.
If Nintendo have been clear on patch sizes, devs need to adhere to them, not whine when they have a bloated update.
When you have the insane patch sizes on consoles, like the 30GB update for Doom that pushes the full game size to 70GB, they're just not feasible on handhelds with flash memory.
If Nintendo have been clear on patch sizes, devs need to adhere to them, not whine when they have a bloated update.
Vegetable Lasagna
Member
Nintendo is restricting patch sizes. Because they didn't put enough storage on the damn Switch and can't be bothered to properly support external storage. Even then it's pretty clear they are denying updates that can be done within the limitations of their system. NBA Playgrounds is a pretty obvious example. They're just waiting for waivers? lol Most ridiculous thing I've heard.
I've experienced working with Nintendo far too many times. They were terrible. The other console manufacturers were way easier to work with. Nintendo liked to throw up roadblocks every chance they got and make that crazy good resubmission money.
they alread made an exception for the patch size, THE SIZE IS NOT A PROBLEM ANYMORE,
holy shit, read the op
Principate
Saint Titanfall
They do but that's due to few hundred to a few thousand files and rarely would they go through multile memory cards to solve that problem. If switch game patches were allowed to get even anywhere close to the higher end they'll fill up with a fraction of the software and a fraction of the speed. Which is why some limitations are logical. Not every dev will submit their customers to excessively large patch sizes but the point would be to encourage the few that do to make the extra effort to get those sizes down to a reasonable level.
Outside of better management ehichbis needed there is no better figure out beyond encourage devs to reduce those file sizes and minimize excess. which os the point of those limitations in the first place.
sleepwalkcapsules
Member
There's no mobile hardware available to power FullHD games with the visual fidelity they're in.
720p is a decision that makes sense.
DeuceGamer
Member
The Developer clearly stated that the file size was approved. There is clearly another issue keeping the patch from releasing.
Edit: it's been approved three weeks (?) and yet we still don't have a release. Seems pretty clear there is more going on here.
Yeah, kinda blown away that most of this thread has been about patch sizes when that's not actually the issue being faced (they apparently aren't allowed to say what is.)
But no, one person makes a pithy comment not understanding a single thing about software development and complaining patch sizes are too high and that's the issue now.
Vegetable Lasagna
Member
I already explained why patch sizes are getting bigger in this thread. The same exact thing is happening on mobile btw, but mobile doesn't have the same issue with needing the quality of assets needed to display on a huge 1080p/4k display. No one is ballooning patch sizes for no good reason. Unless you are suggesting devs are packaging assets the user doesn't even need just to steal their precious bandwidth?
And this is exactly why Nintendo is going to have bad 3rd party support again. They make platforms that require huge amounts of work to downgrade port to, don't meet simple modern hardware expectations (like enough storage lol), and institute archaic rules left and right. I honestly can't believe Nintendo is actually allowing crossplay and that their network even supports it. I'm amazed.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Nintendo are fucking heroes.
Vegetable Lasagna
Member
Yeah, I wish he would go into more detail about the other waivers. They're probably even more stupid than the one they had to get for their patch size. Oh btw, how long were these updates held from the other consoles? How many waivers did they have to get on Xbox and PS4? The answer is probably pretty telling...
But you guys love Nintendo games. I get it.
god damn dude, your bias is showing, cover it
The Last Wizard
Member
How'd I know someone would
People were saying other people were ridiculous for thinking devs are specifically intentionally bloating up patch sizes. I was saying that they're not specifically bloating them up, but perhaps there is room for improvement, given that file size doesn't seem to be a concern any more.
I may not personally have suggestions for solving the technical issues you brought up, but was suggesting that some sort of reasonable constraint would encourage devs to work more to optimize within the current limitations of the patching process, and could potentially lead to technical advancements in how game files are arranged/patched/loaded by engines.
Which is more likely to change - how engines and platforms handle files/patches, or the increasingly-regulated and monitized internet infrastructure?
The discussion expanded beyond NBA Playground at some point, but in this specific case the fact that they were apparently able to halve the file size of the game points to the theory that they didn't fully optimize their game even within current restraints prior to launch.
Edit: apparently the thread isn't about file sizes anymore. I'm out!
Not discounting the rest of your post, I largely agree with it although I think you'd be surprised how optimisation goes into most patches already.
But on this point specifically, it's worth keeping in mind this is almost entirely a US issue. Not exactly a small portion of the market, but regardless it's not something that impacts the whole userbase.
The heroes gamers clearly deserve: one that constantly throws out roadblocks so that consumers of their consoles receive less games from developers and inferior gaming experiences. *salute*
Vegetable Lasagna
Member
What bias? Apple, Android, MS or Sony have none of these ridiculous limitations. Nintendo does. And I have experienced how hard they are to work with. Nintendo is getting singled out because they're alone on this island of stupid. And you're getting less and less quality software because of it. So enjoy or something.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
nah
you remember ten years ago?
when Nintendo fans first brought the phrase 'diminishing returns' into the console wars lexicon, choosing to praise the Wii's dated graphics because 'you couldn't really do anything novel with HD power and resolution anyway'?
that's what this thread reads like to me, with the number of people acting like hypothetical severe patch file restrictions ought to be lauded, as though they would innately solve more issues than they cause.
Serenitynow
Member
This sounds fucking stupid on Nintendo's part. Gonna discourage these devs from bringing their next game to the system.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Nope. The company that is forcing devs to actually release a non broken game.
Shit like Andromeda should never happen again.
yeah, so SEVERE, that nintendo was ok with the patch being bigger than normal
STOP BEING SO SEVERE NINTENDO PLZ
Huge Succeeded
Banned
That's a terribly naive take.
yeah I mean I put the word hypothetical there for a reason buddy
Renna Hazel
Member
Just out of curiosity, have you worked with Nintendo regarding the Switch?
You do not understand game development and it is frankly embarrassing.
It is a virtue to comprehend the limit of one's own knowledge so you are better able to receive and process new information.
This would probably be a stronger point in a pre-Splatoon world, in which about 5 game modes and important social features were patched into one of Nintendo's flagship titles over the course of months. I think it's fair to leave the numerous weapons/stages and events out of the discussion since those aren't equivalent to modes.
Forget you Finn. Nintendo never liked you omiway.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
^^^
Does Apple have a limit on app and patch sizes? Because I don't think I've ever seen an app or patch that's over 2GB on iOS.
All I'm saying is when you're dealing with portable hardware, you run into constraints that don't really exist on consoles only meant to be hooked up to a TV. You can't just slap a 500GB hard drive on there. I'm not sure it would have been possible for Nintendo to give the Switch more than 32GB and stay at $300, 64 maybe. Best you can do really is put in an SD card slot and let people buy 256GB cards. I haven't used a Switch so I don't know what its problem with file management is.
All I'm saying is when you're dealing with portable hardware, you run into constraints that don't really exist on consoles only meant to be hooked up to a TV. You can't just slap a 500GB hard drive on there. I'm not sure it would have been possible for Nintendo to give the Switch more than 32GB and stay at $300, 64 maybe. Best you can do really is put in an SD card slot and let people buy 256GB cards. I haven't used a Switch so I don't know what its problem with file management is.
That's nice. That's also a tiny tiny fraction of games which receive patches. What about the rest?
I get that it's nice to live in your delusional bubble where every game that receives any updates post-launch was therefore retroactively broken at launch regardless of its actual quality but in the real world, games get updates to improve them and often to add additional content to them.
are you an expert on game developing culture?
Undead Fantasy
Member
I don't give a shit.
I care about playing games that aren't broken and need a stupid patch to play decently.
DeuceGamer
Member
Wow, your hate for Nintendo is amazingly entertaining and keeping you from rational discussion.
My point is there is still something wrong and we literally don't know what the problem is but there are people blaming Nintendo for file size throughout the thread when that's not even the issue. I said in an earlier post that Nintendo should allow the patches, but that's the thing, they have and that's not the issue. Why should we focus on that?
Excuse me for not jumping on Nintendo for something when we have no idea what the problem is. I guess that's just because I love Nintendo games though.
Renna Hazel
Member
If your response is in relation to Andromeda, please explain why it had to release in the state that it did. I definitely don't understand why that had to be the case.
That's great. It's also not at all what this thread is about.