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[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I just tire of the way people just throw privilege around, like it's some kind of rhetorical royal flush in arguments like this, when in fact it's an intellectually disguised way of telling people to shut up. It's as lazy as the people who just come in and trumpet about how unbelievable it is that everybody is offended by everything nowadays.

Edit: 80s Bad Guy, I already said costumes like this are racist caricatures and unacceptable for that reason. My comment is a more general comment on the discourse in conversations like this, and the laziness many on the left allow themselves to indulge because they are "in the right".

Pretty much anyone who's not Native (including me) has the privilege of not caring about Native issues. Being black probably makes it easier for me to appreciate what they get put through but just being relatively knowledgeable about US history should make empathy fairly easy. I can appreciate your desire for people arguing against a thing to be academic about it but we've seen multiple times that people generally aren't interested in being educated, just being angry. Things that one side might see as self-evident can't really be taught if the other side just doesn't care and is adamant about it.

This thing with Hemsworth is relatively extremely small potatoes, but it is part of a larger thing that's been happening for centuries. But like actual Native posters have already said, this isn't really something to get heated about, especially when the initial "outrage" was 2 tweets.

 

[E-flux]

I don't think anyone believes there was any significant ill intent by Hemsworth in wearing the garb at the party. The focus has been more on the fact that there is a group of individuals defending their choice to misrepresent a people group despite being explained to how it affects some members of that group and can be seen as varying degrees from culturally insensitive to blatantly racist.

Basically I'll ask the same question I asked someone else before. If you wore the outfit and a Native American explained to you the meaning and how it causes some grief would your empathy kick in and you'd agree to think more thoughtfully before wanting to dress like an Indian? Or would you just scoff at it and take a "get over it, I do what I want" attitude that many other posters have exhibited?

Thanks for the response. Probably a bit both? It's never nice when somebody gets offended by what i do, and i would think twice before getting in that get up again.

It's painfully obvious to a good deal of people in this thread and elsewhere. I agree with Afrocious; You are absolutely being daft to come into the thread and go, "well this just seems like an American problem; what's the big deal?" when we're discussing an offensive practice to Native Americans. It's perfectly understandable that a European might not initially be as aware why this is a big deal. It's been gone over time and again, though. Your ignorance of why this is an issue is not an argument for why this is not an issue.

It was not my intention to belittle, i was just wondering it since i have never met people like that while i have been travelling around Europe and western asia.
Sure, a shitload of racism and other problems but never stuff like this.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Dress up as a race of people that hasn't (and probably won't ever) recover from a genocide caused by your people brehs. Dress up as a caricature of a race your ancestors raped/pillaged/oppressed brehs.

Edit: oh he's Australian? I'm sure he knows better. I'm sure he's aware of their genocide. It's like dressing up as as an Aborigine from Australia(also a victim of white genocide).

 

[Patapwn]

So, "no."

I think I explained my position well in my post I quoted below

It seems you're saying the difference between blackface and Native cosplay is that one is designed to insult a minority and the latter is not (consequently making the offense taken from it an overreaction).

Categorically, there's no difference in dressing up in any depiction. You're just putting on a piece of cloth and makeup. Both dressing up in black face and dressing up in native clothing could be used to incite a group of people or could be done with no ill intent. But black face in modern American society is the one nuclear bomb that you just should know better especially with the racial issues that continue to this very day. I'm going out on a limb and say that native americans do not experience anywhere near the extent of prejudice that black americans have and will experience in the future. If you see a black guy with a little gray hair he lived in an era where society threw rocks at kids because they were going to a white school or had separate drinking fountains and bathrooms.

Cowboys and Indians are iconic symbols of a particular era of history, blackface is not. Dressing up as Indians doesn't have any history of incitement, blackface does. There are particular reasons why raging over this situation is irrational and raging over some guy dressing up in blackface is infinity more understandable. I could see how someone might think that's hypocritical on a technical level, but there's a clear bounds of reason on this and only this issue. Probably a concentration camp costume is the only other outrageous example I would say fits this. And I don't believe if you say there the same thing, there's a particular reason you choose this to make your point.

 

[Fusebox]

Edit: oh he's Australian? I'm sure he knows better. I'm sure he's aware of their genocide. It's like dressing up as as an Aborigine from Australia(also a victim of white genocide).

Yeah that's just the same. I have fond childhood memories of playing Cowboys and Aborigines in the front yard with my mates...

 

[Alligatorjandro]

There are enough costumes out there that you don't need to dress up like a Native American

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

There are enough costumes out there that you don't need to dress up like a Native American

Will never understand why dressing up as a race that endured a clear case of genocide is okay with some people.

 

[dimb]

Hes Australian. So we didn't.

You realize Australia did not even exist as an independent nation when this happened, right? And that it was a colony of the main perpetrator of the eventual genocide against Native Americans. And that even if it wasn't that the history between whites and Native Americans would make this kind of costume especially offensive, right?

Australians do not have some weird immunity to the goings-on of the world. Is black face okay in Australia or something because the history of slavery isn't as pronounced? No, it's not.

 

[Fusebox]

Will never understand why dressing up as a race that endured a clear case of genocide is okay with some people.

Says the guy with the confederate flag avatar...

 

[Red]

Will never understand why dressing up as a race that endured a clear case of genocide is okay with some people.

The amount of hoops they jump through... it doesn't take much to be a decent human being.

In a perfect world the whole exchange would be

"Please don't wear this racist costume."

"Okay."

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Says the guy with the confederate flag avatar...

Pretty sure the avatar is of the grim reaper in a confederate robe. It's inferring that the confederacy was a union of destruction. And those who continue to carry or revere the flag are carrying on that tradition of death. But perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

 

[Trident]

Will never understand why dressing up as a race that endured a clear case of genocide is okay with some people.

I think you need to do some work to establish what the harm of the dress up is, otherwise you could replace it with seemingly anything related to that race (culture, really):

"cooking the food of a race that endured a clear case of genocide"
"celebrating the holidays of a race that endured a clear case of genocide"
etc...

I don't know. I'm Jewish, and we certainly endured a clear case of genocide, and I don't see the harm in people eating our food, celebrating our holidays, or dressing up in our traditional clothing, UNLESS any of the above was done in an intentionally insulting/mocking/trivializing way.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I do see why a Native American would be upset. Their dress has specific deliberate meaning and the costumes are cheap, meaningless renditions that represent nothing other than appearing Native American from cowboys and Indian media. I have no desire to wear such costumes, but I do get it.

 

[Patapwn]

The amount of hoops they jump through... it doesn't take much to be a decent human being.

In a perfect world the whole exchange would be

Indecent human being: "How is the costume racist?"

 

[User 73706]

The amount of hoops they jump through... it doesn't take much to be a decent human being.

In a perfect world the whole exchange would be

"Please don't wear this racist costume."

"I'M SORRY WHAT TRIBE ARE YOU FROM? I DIDN'T REALIZE YOU SPOKE FOR ~#ALL~ PEOPLE AND I'M PRETTY SURE YOU'RE OVERREACTING"

 

[80s Bad Guy]

Hah, thread title is deserved though.

 

[ronito]

Lol the title change. It is incomplete though should have "and a lot of gaffers" added

 

[ZehDon]

Indecent human being: "How is the costume racist?"

Uneducated equates to indecent?

 

[Red]

I think you need to do some work to establish what the harm of the dress up is, otherwise you could replace it with seemingly anything related to that race (culture, really):

"cooking the food of a race that endured a clear case of genocide"
"celebrating the holidays of a race that endured a clear case of genocide"
etc...

I don't know. I'm Jewish, and we certainly endured a clear case of genocide, and I don't see the harm in people eating our food, celebrating our holidays, or dressing up in our traditional clothing, UNLESS any of the above was done in an intentionally insulting/mocking/trivializing way.

The costume is not like your examples. Let's do like for like. How would you feel if someone dressed like this for a costume party:

 

[samar11]

Nothing says "party" quite like mockingly dressing up as the race of people your ancestors nearly eradicated.

You do realise his Australian ? get your shit right before posting

 

[GavinUK86]

im honestly confused. dressing up for a party as an indian is wrong? is it an american thing or globally because people dress like that at fancy dress parties all the time in england.

 

[Trident]

Lol the title change. It is incomplete though should have "and a lot of gaffers" added

There's a weird cognitive dissonance that occurs in "culture outrage" threads, where people effectively say, "nobody is actually outraged that someone did this, so stop acting like we're outraged - but also don't do the thing you think we're outraged about, because it's terrible and unacceptable, and if you do it or defend it, then you're also terrible - but again, we're not outraged about it."

 

[Patapwn]

Uneducated equates to indecent?

The irony being that if people educated themselves on what the term 'racist' actually means they would see that this doesn't fit the definition

 

[Trident]

The costume is not like your examples. Let's do like for like. How would you feel if someone dressed like this for a costume party:

The issue there is that the costume is designed to mock jews by representing a negative stereotype: that jews are money-obsessed.

Is there a similar negative stereotype that is represented in the native american costume? If so, that would be a pretty straight-forward argument against it, as opposed to simply stating "a very bad thing happened to this group, so don't dress like them," which seemed to be the argument of the person I was responding to.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

This thread taught me that 'fancy dress party' is a Britishism for a costume party. At least I learned something.

 

[BunnyBear]

So is the criticism because a white person is wearing the costume to a party? Or simply that dressing up in a Native American costume is offensive, irregardless of who Is wearing it?

 

[GavinUK86]

This thread taught me that 'fancy dress party' is a Britishism for a costume party. At least I learned something.

was that me? lol

 

[Loudninja]

im honestly confused. dressing up for a party as an indian is wrong? is it an american thing or globally because people dress like that at fancy dress parties all the time in england.

I dont get why people cant just read though the topic to see why people have issues with it.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

So is the criticism because a white person is wearing the costume to a party? Or simply that dressing up in a Native American costume is offensive, irregardless of who Is wearing it?

Well whites are the ones sort of responsible for the hardships and genocide of Native Americans. So I assume it's especially concerning to individuals when white people do it. That said, just like there have been cases of Native Americans who put on Black Face it's likely incredibly offensive when other minorities elect to wear a Native American costume.

 

[Forkball]

It's a sad thing that we live in an age where the smallest things are blown out of proportions. I just... I don't know, it's going to be a sad day when kids playing cowboys and indians is going to be frowned upon

Kids play Minecraft on their iPads these days, sorry to break it to you.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

was that me? lol

Your post prompt me to look it up because someone earlier in the thread also said it and I completely misunderstood what they were saying because to me 'fancy dress' meant ... well fancy dresses. I didn't realize it held a certain meaning in the UK.

 

[Red]

The issue there is that the costume is designed to mock jews by representing a negative stereotype: that jews are money-obsessed.

Is there a similar negative stereotype that is represented in the native american costume? If so, that would be a pretty straight-forward argument against it, as opposed to simply stating "a very bad thing happened to this group, so don't dress like them," which seemed to be the argument of the person I was responding to.

Forget the money. Try to ignore it. Is the costume then okay with you? Do you understand that to others, it may not be (and why)?

Did you see the controversy regarding the rapper Macklemore's strange costume choice during a concert a while back?

Many people were offended by this—can you guess why?

I don't see the purpose in delineating between negative and positive stereotypes. The stereotype itself is the problem. Native Americans were nearly wiped out, and continue to be oppressed, and now they are being mythologized and see their culture commercialized by the oppressor. It is not just about wearing elements of clothing of people who had violence performed against them... It is about stereotyping those people and turning their culture into decoration, something to be bought and sold.

Over and over again in this thread Native Americans have been compared to animals and to fictional characters. These are exactly the types of misunderstandings that should be expected when they are stereotyped and turned into costumes. Each ignorant post further proves the point the rest of us has been arguing... Appropriating a people in this way is a tactic that, intentionally or not, further dehumanizes them. That is what has happened. That is what is happening. This thread is full of posts from people who do not understand that.

 

[GavinUK86]

I dont get why people cant just read though the topic to see why people have issues with it.

i've read through it and most pages. i was just enquiring.

Your post prompt me to look it up because someone earlier in the thread also said it and I completely misunderstood what they were saying because to me 'fancy dress' meant ... well fancy dresses. I didn't realize it held a certain meaning in the UK.

ohh ok. yeah, over here we just call it fancy dress. never heard the term costume party outside of american tv and, well, here.

 

[Trident]

The costume is not like your examples. Let's do like for like. How would you feel if someone dressed like this for a costume party:

Having thought about it, I think a closer analogue for jews would be replacing cowboys & indians with nazis & jews, which would seem very insulting to me.

 

[Trident]

Forget the money. Try to ignore it. Is the costume then okay with you? Do you understand that to others, it may not be (and why)?

Did you see the controversy regarding the rapper Macklemore's strange costume choice during a concert a while back?

Many people were offended by this—can you guess why?

I don't see the purpose in delineating between negative and positive stereotypes. The stereotype itself is the problem. Native Americans were nearly wiped out, and continue to be oppressed, and now they are being mythologized and see their culture commercialized by the oppressor. It is not just about wearing elements of clothing of people who had violence performed against them... It is about stereotyping those people and turning their culture into decoration, something to be bought and sold.

I think you're missing what makes Macklemore's costume offensive, which is that it's meant to focus on other negative Jewish stereotypes - being ugly and having stupid looking noses. Not just that he dressed up in vaguely Jewish attire, which would be fine. This distinction has nothing to do with genocide.

Check my previous post for what I think is a better analogue though.

 

[Red]

I think you're missing what makes Macklemore's costume offensive, which is that it's meant to focus on other negative Jewish stereotypes - being ugly and having stupid looking noses. Not just that he dressed up in vaguely Jewish attire, which would be fine. This distinction has nothing to do with genocide.

Check my previous post for what I think is a better analogue though.

I agree with your previous post, that's a good insight. Can you explain what you mean by "negative stereotype"? What would be a positive stereotype of a Jew or Native American?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

So is the criticism because a white person is wearing the costume to a party? Or simply that dressing up in a Native American costume is offensive, irregardless of who Is wearing it?

It's offensive regardless of your skin color. Why wouldn't that be the case.

 

[lanella]

I remember during halloween this year Buuzzfeed did a video where Native Americans tried on Indian costumes and explained why it is a problem.

https://youtu.be/frX69E9pkf8

 

[LionPride]

I remember during halloween this year Buuzzfeed did a video where Native Americans tried on Indian costumes and explained why it is a problem.

https://youtu.be/frX69E9pkf8

This video was already uploaded yet went ignored, maybe it'll have a better fate now

 

[Althane]

I agree with your previous post, that's a good insight. Can you explain what you mean by "negative stereotype"? What would be a positive stereotype of a Jew or Native American?

"Good with money!" - Jew

"Spiritual" - Native American

Negative stereotype is associating a negative attribute (laziness, likelihood towards criminal activity, inability to handle spicy food, poor hygiene, etc) to a general group.

Positive stereotyping is associating a generally positive attribute (good with math, good with money, spiritual, etc) to a group as well.

Both of them are in pretty poor form, but eh.

 

[Red]

"Good with money!" - Jew

"Spiritual" - Native American

Negative stereotype is associating a negative attribute (laziness, likelihood towards criminal activity, inability to handle spicy food, poor hygiene, etc) to a general group.

Positive stereotyping is associating a generally positive attribute (good with math, good with money, spiritual, etc) to a group as well.

Both of them are in pretty poor form, but eh.

I can't imagine that many people of a group would be happy about someone posturing themselves as a "positive stereotype" of that group. I don't think there is any real distinction to be made about this. Like I said before, the stereotype itself is the problem.

 

[botty]

It's 2016, we have too many resources for ignorance like this to keep going.

 

[Patapwn]

I don't see the purpose in delineating between negative and positive stereotypes. The stereotype itself is the problem.

What stereotype is a native American costume perpetuating about native American people today or even in the past? I mean, the costume is pretty close depiction to some real cloths worn I've seen in museums. I know 'sterotype' is a buzzword that sounds like a slam dunk against any cultural or racial depiction of any capacity but it's a misuse of the word here. This situation doesn't make any statement of any kind, really.

Native Americans were nearly wiped out, and continue to be oppressed, and now they are being mythologized and see their culture commercialized by the oppressor. It is not just about wearing elements of clothing of people who had violence performed against them... It is about stereotyping those people and turning their culture into decoration, something to be bought and sold.

This is one of the worst cases of conflating two mutually exclusive issues that I've seen. Someone wore costume but white oppression therefore racist... that's your argument boiled down without the admittedly impressive rhetoric. I mean, when I got to the end and you turned the basic tenants of capitalism into some specific aggression against native american culture even I had a tear almost roll down the ol' cheek. I don't really think I need to comment further on the absurdity of the narrative you're peddling but if people think their culture is destroyed over a piece of cloth bartered for coin I don't think they have a firm grasp on their culture.

Over and over again in this thread Native Americans have been compared to animals and to fictional characters.

O_O I need to see the receipt for this

These are exactly the types of misunderstandings that should be expected when they are stereotyped and turned into costumes. Each ignorant post further proves the point the rest of us has been arguing... Appropriating a people in this way is a tactic that, intentionally or not, further dehumanizes them. That is what has happened. That is what is happening. This thread is full of posts from people who do not understand that.

Yeah, okay buddy.

 

[Soul_Pie]

It's 2016, we have too many resources for ignorance like this to keep going.

That is a pretty shit comparison, and you know it, and you're just undermining people that exist today that are suffering because they have to try and cover up their actual person because of beauty standards that aren't applicable to the way they were fucking born. Once again people are conflating race and culture and degrading the topic.

This is exactly why making any kind of big deal out of something like this is so stupid, because we have people in India having to get skin whitening because of a reprehensible caste system (once again, can we criticise that disgusting culture or do we risk hurting the utter racists who are a part of it?) because they'll be judged straight away by the colour of their skin. Compared to some dude at a party who may be well intentioned for all we know we are talking about things in an entire different stratosphere.

 

[Oersted]

What stereotype is a native American costume perpetuating about native American people today or even in the past? I mean, the costume is pretty close depiction to some real cloths worn I've seen in museums. I know 'sterotype' is a buzzword that sounds like a slam dunk against any cultural or racial depiction of any capacity but it's a misuse of the word here. This situation doesn't make any statement of any kind, really.



This is one of the worst cases of conflating two mutually exclusive issues that I've seen. Someone wore costume but white oppression therefore racist... that's your argument boiled down without the admittedly impressive rhetoric. I mean, when I got to the end and you turned the basic tenants of capitalism into some specific aggression against native american culture even I had a tear almost roll down the ol' cheek. I don't really think I need to comment further on the absurdity of the narrative you're peddling but if people think their culture is destroyed over a piece of cloth bartered for coin I don't think they have a firm grasp on their culture.



O_O I need to see the receipt for this



Yeah, okay buddy.

We had a native american in here explaining it. Multiple posters linked blogs and videos by/with native americans explaining it. Not getting it is on you.

That is a pretty shit comparison, and you know it, and you're just undermining people that exist today that are suffering because they have to try and cover up their actual person because of beauty standards that aren't applicable to the way they were fucking born. Once again people are conflating race and culture and degrading the topic.

This is exactly why making any kind of big deal out of something like this is so stupid, because we have people in India having to get skin whitening because of a reprehensible caste system (once again, can we criticise that disgusting culture or do we risk hurting the utter racists who are a part of it?) because they'll be judged straight away by the colour of their skin. Compared to some dude at a party who may be well intentioned for all we know we are talking about things in an entire different stratosphere.

Whataboutism is lazy. Noone says it is in the same stratosphere. The only ones who make these dumb ass comparisons are those who do not want to talk about it, or any other injustice, in the first place.

 

[Red]

There was a recent episode of 99% Invisible that might be pertinent to this thread. About the way San Francisco's Chinatown adopted American stereotypes of Chinese people in order to survive.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

People should check out Reel Injun on Netflix. They interview actual, honest to goodness Native Americans about stuff like this.

I'm going to watch this tonight. I could use some enlightening on the subject.

There was a recent episode of 99% Invisible that might be pertinent to this thread. About the way San Francisco's Chinatown adopted American stereotypes of Chinese people in order to survive.

Yeah great episode.

 

[Jack Remington]

I was pretty pissed when Disney put a white girl in Native American cosplay in that Peter Pan movie last year.

They literally couldn't get one girl with Native American ancestry to play Tiger Lily? Spent tens of millions of dollars to culturally appropriate all over the big screen? I was hoping Tiger Lily wouldn't look like a random white chick at Coachella.

 

[alfredofroylan]

I was pretty pissed when Disney put a white girl in Native American cosplay in that Peter Pan movie last year.

They literally couldn't get one girl with Native American ancestry to play Tiger Lily? Spent tens of millions of dollars to culturally appropriate all over the big screen? I was hoping Tiger Lily wouldn't look like a random white chick at Coachella.

That movie wasn't made by Disney it's from Warner.

 

[SchrodingerC]

I was pretty pissed when Disney put a white girl in Native American cosplay in that Peter Pan movie last year.

They literally couldn't get one girl with Native American ancestry to play Tiger Lily? Spent tens of millions of dollars to culturally appropriate all over the big screen? I was hoping Tiger Lily wouldn't look like a random white chick at Coachella.

Are you talking about Pan? That created by WB and Berlanti co.

EDIT: beaten.

Funny thing about the new 'Natives' is they're still a tribe lead by a single white lady and the rest are those of different races.
Whoever thought this a better way of getting around the Native characters from the book clearly did not see the final film.