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[Goldmund]

There are different ways to bring about change. In your life, in the lives of others. Two ways are distinct enough to identify them with the sexes, the way our culture still sees and experiences them, through its history-worn and askew lenses of passion and prejudice.

It's a matter of perspective, whether you consider those observing from a distance passive and those being observed and at work active, or the other way round.

Bear with me.

A character from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time inspired this topic, the mysterious Sheik (I'm replaying the game at the moment). To me, she seems somewhat of a counter draft to the masculine Samus Aran.

At the outset, both are dressed in a way that makes their sexuality anyone's guess and yet they greatly differ in their approach of bringing about change. It might have been a shock to find out Samus was a woman at the end of Metroid, but it wasn't as much in Ocarina of Time (ignoring that it was a Zelda game and its story predictable).

If you don't disagree with this assertion, why do you think that is? Sheik intervenes and guides our hero, Samus, on the other hand, is our hero. They're both incredibly active, but only the prior through means I'd call feminine.

This wasn't the question I wanted to ask, of course. Instead I wanted to find out whether you think that a game based on a heroine in contrast to one that's based on a hero in the way I defined the two could work. A game wherein you'd step into the shoes of someone like Sheik, a game that would still have its Link, someone the game's world considers its savior, but you wouldn't be the one to control him.

You'd be observing, guiding without this guidance being apparent to most of the world.

Could this work? I know of a few games that somewhat go into this direction, but I didn't want to cut off a possibly interesting or even absurd discussion by drawing up yet another list.

(This is my first thread, so please be gentle. I know it's oddball.)

 

[Manmademan]

At the outset, both are dressed in a way that makes their sexuality anyone's guess and yet they greatly differ in their approach of bringing about change. It might have been a shock to find out Samus was a woman at the end of Metroid, but it wasn't as much in Ocarina of Time (ignoring that it was a Zelda game and its story predictable).

maybe because metroid came out in the mid 1980s and broke the mold, and Ocarina of time was over a decade later and female leads in gaming had been done before?

 

[The Faceless Master]

like Pikmin but with one Pikmin?

 

[Femmeworth]

So, you want a game where you play as the male hero's female understudy? Can't say I find that appealing.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

The idea of having a game where you play as the non-active character has potential and has been done a few times before (Pacman 2, Lifeline). I don't really know why you're including gender roles in this thread though.

 

[erpg]

So, a God game, but with a Goddess? I'm not sure I follow.

 

[TheExodu5]

I'm not sure why you think this should be restricted to a female player character specifically...but the concept is an interesting one.

 

[Crash Station]

So like Ada in Separate Ways mode in Resident Evil 4?

 

[lolez2matt]

brutal legend kinda does this D:

 

[ag-my001]

A game wherein you'd step into the shoes of someone like Sheik, a game that would still have its Link, someone the game's world considers its savior, but you wouldn't be the one to control him.

The only game I can think of that really fits this part is Final Fantasy Tactics. There you had many forces moving about trying to accomplish some goal, with your group only being one small (but important) part. Delita gets hailed as the hero, even if it was Ramza present at many of the key parts. The problem with focusing on the "behind the scenes hero" is all the down time. Sheik guides Link to a temple, and then what? A two-hour whittling mini-game waiting for Link to defeat the boss? It's a lot harder to write and plan for, which makes it much more of a risky game to make.

 

[pulga]

So you want to be some glorified sidekick

 

[Red]

Reccetear (sp?) sounds like what you are describing.

 

[Ferrio]

So a Princess Peach Hentai game?

 

[Ninja Kn1ght]

To clarify: Metal Gear Solid 2 is ultimately about Solid Snake. He's the star of the game despite the fact that you don't control him for the majority of the game's story. The basic role of the character of Raiden is so that we, the players, can observe Snake from an external perspective.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

(This is my first thread, so please be gentle. I know it's oddball.)

Excellent thread... because it allows me to gush over Final Fantasy Tactics some more You spend the entire game on the traditional save the world quest yet you're the only one who knows it.

Made the ending especially bittersweet. You ride that chocobo off into the sunset Ramza ::eyes tear up:: you earned it!

 

[EatChildren]

If you don't disagree with this assertion, why do you think that is?

Gender stereotypes. Its hard to peg Samus as either male or female prior to knowledge of her gender, and gender bias has most people assume she's male. Sheik is still somewhat feminine, but more importantly has the weight of story behind her. She's part of the plot, and a mystery, so we naturally assume she might be someone we've already met, or that there is more to her than initially revealed.

As for your other question, I assume your asking if a game could work where you play as a side character opposed to the hero? As if the 'main story' or whatever is really centered around someone else, and you're kinda on the side?

I'm sure it could work. Its probably already been done, I just cant think where.

 

[Goldmund]

I'm not sure why you think this should be restricted to a female player character specifically...but the concept is an interesting one.

I don't. That was only the plug.

So, you want a game where you play as the male hero's female understudy? Can't say I find that appealing.

I didn't say I wanted that, I asked whether you think that could be a feasible and interesting design decision.

So, a God game, but with a Goddess? I'm not sure I follow.

In a way. One of the games that came to my mind was Majesty. It's not really what I meant, though. I'll wait and see whereto the discussion goes before I go into more detail.

 

[Manmademan]

The only game I can think of that really fits this part is Final Fantasy Tactics. There you had many forces moving about trying to accomplish some goal, with your group only being one small (but important) part. Delita gets hailed as the hero, even if it was Ramza present at many of the key parts. The problem with focusing on the "behind the scenes hero" is all the down time. Sheik guides Link to a temple, and then what? A two-hour whittling mini-game waiting for Link to defeat the boss? It's a lot harder to write and plan for, which makes it much more of a risky game to make.

actually someone mentioned "Lifeline" and it really does sound like the only game that fits the criteria:

Lifeline, released in Japan as Operator's Side​ (オペレーターズサイド, Operētāzu Saido?), is a video game released by SCEI and Konami for the PlayStation 2. It is a horror game in the genre similar to the Resident Evil series. Its defining aspect is that the player controls the game entirely by using a microphone to speak commands to on-screen characters. These commands are interpreted by the game via speech recognition. It is generally regarded by game reviewers as average, although its innovation has caused it to become a cult classic among fans. The game sold well enough to become a PlayStation 2 "greatest hit", with the lower-priced version released on September 25, 2003 in Japan. Both versions in Japan included the option to purchase the USB headset packaged with the game. The North American release did not offer this bundle.


[edit] StoryIn the near future (year 2029), the player is placed in the shoes of a young man who has attended a Christmas party in a newly developed hotel set in a Space Station. As the festivities proceed, problems arise with horrific monsters running rampant across the Space Station. Most of the inhabitants are slaughtered and devoured, with the player forcibly trapped in the Space Station's main control center and separated from his girlfriend, Naomi (Sayaka in the Japanese version). Elsewhere in the monster-infested hotel, a cocktail waitress named Rio (voiced by Mariko Suzuki in the Japanese version and Kristen Miller in the English version) has been locked in a detention cell for her own safety during the massive assault.

The player (referred to as the operator) has access to all Space Station mechanics via the control room and is able to observe everything in the area via cameras placed around the station. Noticing Rio as she attempts to contact the monitor room, the player establishes contact through her headset, and assists her through the perils of the horrendous station, as well as to discover the mystery behind the threat.

So the player is taking the role of someone guiding the protagonist through the game via cameras and microphones, rather than taking a protagonist role themselves. Gender is irrelevant though.

 

[Dr_Peace]

Play some more JRPG's, where female characters are many a time critical elements even though they aren't the main protagonist.

Tifa from FF7. Celes from FF6. Xelha from Baten Kaitos. Aika from Skies of Arcadia. I could go on.

Frankly JRPG's have the best female characters hands down (Samus is amazing but more of an icon than a developed character, OTHER M DOES NOT EXIST!!!).

 

[giggas]

Damn it, I came here to post this.

 

[DangerStepp]

Does that chick from Uncharted apply here? Elena?

 

[Aquavelvaman]

Lifeline trailer

Pacman 2

For those unfamiliar

 

[kliklik]

Wait, why can't we just have the female character as the playable main character? What's the point of this?

 

[Manmademan]

Does that chick from Uncharted apply here? Elena?

no, because Elena isn't the protagonist of the game. Nathan Drake is.

except for lifeline (which was an excellent suggestion) All of the games mentioned have you directly controlling female characters.

The OP seems to be suggesting a game where you assist the main character in completing goals, but you are not the protagonist.

 

[Goldmund]

Gender stereotypes. Its hard to peg Samus as either male or female prior to knowledge of her gender, and gender bias has most people assume she's male. Sheik is still somewhat feminine, but more importantly has the weight of story behind her. She's part of the plot, and a mystery, so we naturally assume she might be someone we've already met, or that there is more to her than initially revealed.

As for your other question, I assume your asking if a game could work where you play as a side character opposed to the hero? As if the 'main story' or whatever is really centered around someone else, and you're kinda on the side?

I'm sure it could work. Its probably already been done, I just cant think where.

That's the thing. Who's a side character and who isn't is a matter of perspective. I used the prejudices associated with gender to emphasize this.

The one working in the background doesn't always have less of an impact than the one carrying out the action, the one with oversight giving a nudge. Being in the background also shouldn't mean you're reduced to a blank slate, a God in a strategy game with no defined characteristics other than the ones you made up for him through playing.

EDIT: Thanks for the many replies so far. Let me make one thing clear once more, I'm specifically not talking about games that have a hero (Nathan Drake was brought up) and then replacing him with a female lead.

It's about what we as gamers (or humans) consider active/passive and why.

 

[disappeared]

I'd love to play as a background character, always trying to help the hero, but always fucking it up. In the end, in an attempt to help the protagonist foil the villain's plan, you'd ultimately fuck it up and watch the villain triumph.

 

[Femmeworth]

I didn't say I wanted that, I asked whether you think that could be a feasible and interesting design decision.

Well, you made your point unclear by bringing gender/sex into the equation.

The only game I can think of that really fits this part is Final Fantasy Tactics. There you had many forces moving about trying to accomplish some goal, with your group only being one small (but important) part. Delita gets hailed as the hero, even if it was Ramza present at many of the key parts. The problem with focusing on the "behind the scenes hero" is all the down time. Sheik guides Link to a temple, and then what? A two-hour whittling mini-game waiting for Link to defeat the boss? It's a lot harder to write and plan for, which makes it much more of a risky game to make.

That's a good example. Although, it would have been more effective if the narrative didn't outright tell you that you wouldn't get the credit.

 

[erpg]

Thinking about it, I guess playing as a sort of guardian angel that secretly fascinates the Hero's quest, like the opposite of Dungeon Keeper, would be a pretty interesting puzzle game.

 

[Goldmund]

I'd love to play as a background character, always trying to help the hero, but always fucking it up. In the end, in an attempt to help the protagonist foil the villain's plan, you'd ultimately fuck it up and watch the villain triumph.

This sounds great, actually. Could you elaborate on how this would play out gameplay-wise?

 

[TheExodu5]

Reccetear (sp?) sounds like what you are describing.

Yeah that's the only game that comes to mind. There are plenty of games that have you playing a 'god' character, but in Recettear, you're a side character providing for the hero characters.

 

[DangerStepp]

Are you basically asking for a game that is nothing but a semi-escort mission a starring a girl?

:\

 

[water_wendi]

If im reading this right you want a game based on something like Republican Motherhood?

 

[thetrin]

This makes me think I would love to play a game where I'm not actually the hero, but facilitating the hero's rise to glory in some way.

(To some extent, DQV's main character wasn't really the hero, but his long, difficult life gave rise to the legendary hero. I loved that about the game)

 

[Poyunch]

I love heroin.

 

[Goldmund]

Are you basically asking for a game that is nothing but a semi-escort mission a starring a girl?

:\

Haha, maybe? I'm not saying this could be the grounds on which to build a great game. It's just something that has rarely been explored and I was wondering, why that is.

Recettear came to my mind as well, it's extremely close to what I envisioned. Final Fantasy Tactics isn't quite what I mean, but I definitely see the parallels.

EDIT:

This makes me think I would love to play a game where I'm not actually the hero, but facilitating the hero's rise to glory in some way.

(To some extent, DQV's main character wasn't really the hero, but his long, difficult life gave rise to the legendary hero. I loved that about the game)

Spoilers! I just picked that one up for DS!

Now I'm even more excited.

 

[Taoofberg]

So you'd be the Penny to the game's Inspector Gadget? I think you'd end up with most players wanting to be the "fun" character that actually does stuff.

 

[Goldmund]

If im reading this right you want a game based on something like Republican Motherhood?

I don't know what that means, could you elaborate?

So you'd be the Penny to the game's Inspector Gadget? I think you'd end up with most players wanting to be the "fun" character that actually does stuff.

Excellent, yeah, didn't think of that. The idea would be to still make this experience fun and interesting, of course. The question would be, how?

 

[kliklik]

The only game I can think of that really fits this part is Final Fantasy Tactics. There you had many forces moving about trying to accomplish some goal, with your group only being one small (but important) part. Delita gets hailed as the hero, even if it was Ramza present at many of the key parts. The problem with focusing on the "behind the scenes hero" is all the down time. Sheik guides Link to a temple, and then what? A two-hour whittling mini-game waiting for Link to defeat the boss? It's a lot harder to write and plan for, which makes it much more of a risky game to make.

Oh, so like Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King? Or... Little King's Story?

As the King, you stay home and build buildings and collect taxes and do administrative things, and order your fighters to go to training and send your fighters out to attack foes rather than doing it yourself, then receive reports on their performance.

 

[thetrin]

Spoilers! I just picked that one up for DS!

Now I'm even more excited.

Fuck, sorry. I keep forgetting it's not a 15 year old game to some people. My bad. It's still an amazing game, and there's still tons of story to explore outside of what I said.

 

[danmaku]

In Michigan you play as a more or less passive observer. You have some influence on the events, but most of the time you are just watching, documenting the events. It's an interesting idea, the actual game isn't very good but I'd like to see someone else's take on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan:_Report_from_Hell

 

[thetrin]

In Michigan you play as a more or less passive observer. You have some influence on the events, but most of the time you are just watching, documenting the events. It's an interesting idea, the actual game isn't very good but I'd like to see someone else's take on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan:_Report_from_Hell

I do not regret the 500 yen I spent on that game.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Are you basically asking for a game that is nothing but a semi-escort mission a starring a girl?

:\

The Last Guardian potentially? Yeah so Yorda's a boy this time round, but you get the idea.

 

[disappeared]

This sounds great, actually. Could you elaborate on how this would play out gameplay-wise?

I don't quite know yet, to be honest! It's just an idea I've had kicking around.

Ultimately it would have to run parallel to the hero's actions. You'd have objectives to carry out in tandem with what the hero would be achieving. You would have to be convinced, via the narrative, that what you're doing is helping your friend, when in actuality the gameplay and narrative structure would see to it otherwise. If you cleared a certain path, for example, you'd discover that you unfortunately blocked a crucial path to another critical objective for the hero. And by the time you got to the villain, it would turn out that the magical "Strength of the Gods" potion you obtained to give the hero actually poisoned them. Perhaps the NPC who gave you the potion was somehow in league with the villain.

Or something, I don't know.

 

[Anticitizen One]

I don't get this thread. Do you mean like MGS 3:Snake Eater where you play as the understudy of The Boss?

 

[Goldmund]

In Michigan you play as a more or less passive observer. You have some influence on the events, but most of the time you are just watching, documenting the events. It's an interesting idea, the actual game isn't very good but I'd like to see someone else's take on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan:_Report_from_Hell

Oh, wow, I've got to play this. Thank you, I'll look into it. Apparently it was published in Europe, I should be able to get a copy somehow.

 

[Elcheris]

You could say Okami did this at a few points in the game, specifically when you did things for the useless Susano and made it look like it was him doing it. I think it would be a neat idea if it was done properly and I have no idea how that would be.

 

[abq]

Vaan and Penelo in FFXII?

 

[Goldmund]

I don't quite know yet, to be honest! It's just an idea I've had kicking around.

Ultimately it would have to run parallel to the hero's actions. You'd have objectives to carry out in tandem with what the hero would be achieving. You would have to be convinced, via the narrative, that what you're doing is helping your friend, when in actuality the gameplay and narrative structure would see to it otherwise. If you cleared a certain path, for example, you'd discover that you unfortunately blocked a crucial path to another critical objective for the hero. Any by the time you got to the villain, it would turn out that the magical potion you obtained to give the hero the "Strength of the Gods" in reality poisoned them. Perhaps the NPC who gave you the potion was somehow in league with the villain.

Or something, I don't know.

Although the game would ridicule it, that's exactly what I was thinking of when picking Sheik as an example for the thread.

I don't get this thread. Do you mean like MGS 3:Snake Eater where you play as the understudy of The Boss?

Maybe. I haven't played the game, I wouldn't know. Care to elaborate?

 

[Mudkips]

I don't get it.
You want to play as the sidekick? You want to be Elena in Uncharted? You want to be Robin?

The heroes in games and movies are who they are because that's where all the interesting shit is. It has nothing to do with sex, it has to do with wanting to play as Jimmy Fucking Olsen as he sits on the crapper and takes pictures 90% of the time, vs. wanting to play as Superman who's wrecking up the place 90% of the time.

 

[BluWacky]

You've got various different ideas contained in your OP:

i) The idea that you play a "side character", not the main character in a story. I like the Raiden example from earlier in the thread but I don't think it necessarily offers new opportunities for gameplay. I mean, playing as Robin in a Batman game has mostly meant you just do the same things but with a different character sprite/model.

This has mostly made me think of an old cartoon called Inspector Gadget; the point of the series was that it was the side characters (the titular inspector's genius daughter and their pet dog) who saved the day while Gadget bumbled around being inept, but the game adaptations turn him into the competent lead while his daughter and dog offer sideline help, because it's not compelling gameplay to be true to the source in this case.

ii) The idea of indirect control of another character. This covers games like Lifeline, The Experiment (PC point-and-click adventure game where you operate lights, machinery, doorways etc. from a remote operating station to guide the protagonist through the game), Pac Man 2, Sleepwalker etc. - maybe even Chu Chu Rocket?

And then I think people are also giving examples of female main characters in games, which isn't what you were asking for...

To address possibly the main point of your question - games like Lifeline and The Experiment are flawed precisely because they offer such indirect control of the central character. The games become frustrating because the protagonist doesn't do what you want them to do, wandering in the wrong direction, ignoring or misinterpreting your prompts etc. The gap between input and output is too great to make a satisfying playing experience, particularly with Lifeline's spotty voice recognition. Part of this is a user-friendliness issue - The Experiment's interface is a multitude of windows which become very unwieldy and sluggish - but I don't know whether this can be effectively improved upon.

I think that we as gamers want to feel like we're in control of what's happening, and this sort of nudge-nudge-influence gameplay runs contrary to that - except in puzzle games like Chu Chu Rocket.

Majesty, which you mentioned earlier, isn't a great example because it only gives you the illusion of indirect control. You build and research everything in the game and hire all the heroes, and you basically tell them exactly where to go by setting the bounty on exploration/attack flags. You just don't do the actual point-click-move part of it.

I'm guessing you're looking for something different than a god game like Theme Park where you're definitely guiding and nurturing people to do things a specific way (lots of salt on the fries to send people to your drinks stand, lots of marketing for your most expensive ride so they go on it etc.) because that's on a more abstract scale rather than directly "mentoring" someone?