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A lot of Europeans are going to hell
- Thread starter Stoney Mason
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HolyStar said:
It's not about whether you like it or not, it's about whether or not it's true. Whether or not I want a particular drug to cure say, malaria, is irrelevant, either it does or it doesn't. Either there is a god, or there isn't.
It's a scientific question not a... poetic one.
I'd rather take the harsh truth than live in deliberate ignorance. Or more accurately, assume something I cannot possibly be sure of as absolute fact.
It just so happens that the current scientific model of the universe isn't particularly depressing anyway. The lack of a god puts our destiny squarely in our hands, and the lack of an afterlife makes every second we are alive count even more. When I do a good deed, it's not because I fear burning in hell, it's simply because I sincerely want to help people.
CrushDance
Banned
Atheism isn't depressing at all, it makes the world far more interesting to me, knowing that all this stuff happened naturally, pretty freaking amazing honestly. I have nothing against religion but when that religion makes you close minded and makes you think you have the right to have control over other peoples lives and decisions then it's just not worth listening. I pride myself on being a very open minded, accepting, decent human being, and i didn't get that way from religion, I got it from trying to be a good human.
Yixian said:
Sir, you do not just lie in the dirt and rot there. You will either go to heaven or hell. Do you honestly think that God (capitalize it fools) doesn't exist? Most of America hates athiests because they are against God's will. Just because the world seems like garbage now doesn't mean that God isn't there.
Fake edit: Oh yeah, if you don't think that heaven exists, then what is the point? Don't say it is to live this life to the fullest. That should be a point to have, but you should also plan for the afterlife, just saying.
ErasureAcer
Banned
Stoney Mason said:
Gnosticism
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
If you tell a Hindu you don't believe in literal Karma, he'll tell you your worldview is pretty fucking depressing.HolyStar said:
Disbelieving in other peoples assumptions is not inherantly depressing, sorry. Atheists are often very happy actually. Only you might be depressed by such a lack of belief, because I'm guessing these beliefs empower your actions. Without them, you might feel imparied, but the atheist is not empowered by the same beliefs.
Atheism is only to lack a belief in a personal friend-God.... and that is really not the only worldview that can make you happy.... not by a longshot.
Are you honestly saying you don't believe in reincarnation?? OMG. Pessimism!HolyStar said:
cloudwalking
300chf ain't shit to me
HolyStar said:
well holystar has all the answers, folks.
phew, i gotta say, that's a load off my mind. no need to question anything anymore. you don't just lie in the dirt and rot.
I can't tell if this is tongue-in-cheek or not. Hard to keep track of which gaffers are religious and which aren't.HolyStar said:
If you are serious, then you typify what I dislike most about faith, or at least some who follow it. You're basically saying you believe in what you believe because it's most comforting, not because it's grounded in reality. It sure would be comforting to think there is a big man in the sky who will send everyone to a land of eternal bliss after death in which our consciousness from life continues on, but I'm not going to plan my real existence around empty hopes of an afterlife just because it makes me warm and fuzzy inside and helps me cope with an inevitable end to my life.
You say it's impossible that we just lie in the ground and rot after death. But what are you basing that on? Anything more than what boils down to desperate wishful thinking? Yeah it may be depressing, but that's coping with reality; and not doing so, as far as I know, is referred to as delusion.
And by the way, I really don't find the idea of reincarnation that optimistic anyway. If it's a new consciousness, then what does it matter?
HolyStar said:
Atheists do not believe in God, and thus they cannot act against his will. If I don't believe in an entity I certainly don't believe that the nonexistent entity has some sort of will. So I cannot be said to be acting against something that does not exist. Atheists are only acting against the will of credulous theists.
HolyStar said:
That's kind of like asking 'what is the point of watching a movie? It is going to end, isn't it? If the movie doesn't go on forever how can you enjoy it?Â’
CrushDance
Banned
Good post.Lelielle said:
1) Same applies both ways, I see everything as growing by itself but created at first. It's just like people is how I view it, were nothing. DOn't exist. until were born into a family, then we grow by ourselves, learn and change.
That's how I view the universe. Everything was set in motion and took it's own natural course, we have evolution and free will to do whatever we want. I don't see how anyone can argue that evolution doesn't exist or whatever some of you seem to think everyone does so we're idiots or something.
2) Yeah and again it works both ways. People are closed minded and set in stone either way, some of us though actually listen to each other and try to work together instead of throwing stones. Me? I've never encountered any group forcing someone into a way of thinking.
The point is whether you're agnostic, atheist, religious that you got there of your own free will. What would be the point if you were forced? There would be none. You wouldn't have any love or understanding of it just hate and confusion.
People are supposed to choose not be forced.
3) And that's okay if you don't. Nobody can understand or do everything. I have trouble getting a sense of self from anything but my Catholicism/my own experiences and you have a better sense of yourself from your own way of living.
That doesn't mean we can't still be close to each other. It reminds me of the "isms" in a sense the way people act some times. Just hating and thinking one way is the only way you know?
I'd rather not shake hands with grenades.
Malek you are one of the best posters on here!:lolmalek4980 said:
Stoney Mason said:
The very reason we don't condone slavery anymore is because of our religious mores. The first abolitionists were VERY strict evangalicals.
Who knows what this country would look like today if it weren't for them.
-- --
Equating our economic practices to our religous practices is not even a relevent comparison anyways. My great, great Grandfather came to America in 1864 ... I do not practice the same trade that he did .. but I was baptised/confirmed under the same religion he was.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
CrushDance said:
*nods*
soul creator
Member
ToxicAdam said:
weren't both slaveholders and abolitionists "Christians"? Of course, one was a much nicer form of it, but it seems to show that someone labeling themselves part of a religion doesn't really mean much, especially in those days.
Stoney Mason
Banned
ToxicAdam said:
Slavery was also legitimized by religion especially in the south ala the curse of Ham and other bible passsages that more directly condone slavery. So those things cut both ways,
CrushDance
Banned
Just what I was about to say. Wasn't the South largely against the idea?Stoney Mason said:
CrushDance said:
Oh... thanks.
ToxicAdam said:
The abolitionists were Christians and the slave owners were Christians. EVERYONE was Christian. And, anyway, it is not like the Bible goes out of its way to condemn slavery. Many of the people who pushed for abolition in Britain did so under secular motives using non-religious arguments. And Britain ended slavery before the United States
However, this is a non sequitor. His point was simple; times change. Europe may have been full of religious bigots in the 16th and 17th centuries, and people may have escaped persecution by immigrating to America. But what does that have to do with anything today? The past religious conditions of Europe is not at issue here.
Stoney Mason
Banned
CrushDance said:
People can and will use religion to justify their beliefs which is why I don't give it quite the credit that some people do for solving ills. It justifies just as many beliefs as it crusades against.
Stoney Mason
Banned
malek4980 said:
Bravo. I'm so rarely understood on this board
CrushDance
Banned
Yeah you and Malek both make solid points.Stoney Mason said:
It's just a horrible 50/50 type thing. Some days it's "helping" and other days it's "hurting". Religion has hindered people at times to advance and at others it's been the driving force behind several things.
Then we have crusades etc and it's a mess. A human mess after all:lol The quote I live by is "The smarter something gets, the more it will justify whatever it does".
And it's horrible but true.
itsinmyveins
Gets to pilot the crappy patrol labors
Yixian said:
It's a scientific question not a... poetic one.
I bet you mean "philosophical"
And obviously, it's not all about that for everybody. Believing in god can be a good thing for some since it helps them getting through stuff.
Yixian said:
That isn't necessaraly true, though. I mean, you could argue that ones actions are all reactions to what's happening at a given moment and also influenced by the state your body is in -- endorphins and stuff like that. A mind boggling thought it is, anyways.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Get this.... if no religion were true, then it turns out all those people doing charity and promoting liberation were doing it by their own will. You might think that the belief motivated their kind acts, but I say that their kindness motivated them to choose kind beliefs. Without religion, charity is still alive and well.
Speaking for myself, I'm a selfish, ethically egoist bastard. I do what I think is right for myself. And usually, through a kind of loose unconscious utilitarianism, I find that the best course of action is to benefit those around me. I am charitable by my own nature, nothing owing to any belief except my own whim, and I don't see why it couldn't be the same for others.
Speaking for myself, I'm a selfish, ethically egoist bastard. I do what I think is right for myself. And usually, through a kind of loose unconscious utilitarianism, I find that the best course of action is to benefit those around me. I am charitable by my own nature, nothing owing to any belief except my own whim, and I don't see why it couldn't be the same for others.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
My world view is pretty deterministic. I've been mulling over the fact that all of my actions might have been set in motion in a cause and effect chain going back to the big bang. Free will mightn't exist.ItsInMyVeins said:
Funny... it's still not restriciting at all. It's still kind of liberating. In a certain way, if all actions are predetermined, than "you" are not autonomous at all... you are a logical consequence of the entire universe in a pre-determined net of cause/effect. It's kind of like in the Hindu religion, where all is Brahman, and you are simply an Atman, an incarnation of Brahman (god). If all is determined, you are the everything. Too out there?
Danne-Danger
Member
DSWii60 said:
It just means that there are still a lot of people here that don't understand that some people have to come here for shelter and that integration is a good thing in the long run.
*high five*Bildi said:
These days whenever I hear of some news about how America is fucking up, another constitutional right is being violated, or how our nation is turning into a service country or blah-dee-blah I just don't care anymore. You guys deserve it and the quicker Bush turns the government into whatever Fellato-Facist-Nazi thing those conspiracy liberals are masturbating about (and won't shut the FUCK UP about) the better.jko said:And...which is the best country in the world?
God Bless America.
I really do not want to live in a country where people who believes in a imaginary figure and live by incredibly outdated morals have any sort of power to mold the government.
Or hell, deal with as much people who say "If you think about a sin in your head, it's just as bad as committing it!" as I do.
Or people who believe that everyone outside of their religion is going to burn in hell.
Or other little quirps like that.
itsinmyveins
Gets to pilot the crappy patrol labors
BocoDragon said:My world view is pretty deterministic. I've been mulling over the fact that all of my actions might have been set in motion in a cause and effect chain going back to the big bang. Free will mightn't exist.
Funny... it's still not restriciting at all. It's still kind of liberating. In a certain way, if all actions are predetermined, than "you" are not autonomous at all... you are a logical consequence of the entire universe in a pre-determined net of cause/effect. It's kind of like in the Hindu religion, where all is Brahman, and you are simply an Atman, an incarnation of Brahman (god). If all is determined, you are the everything. Too out there?
Well, the way I see it is that it doesn't matter. I mean, how could it even impact us? If you are a "logical consequence", it stems for almost an infinite different instances combined. So in the end; it's pretty much a toss up. You'll get non the wiser and everything will still play out as your own choice. So I'm just gonna call it "my choice" to make things simpler
Yixian said:
Well, they wouldn't believe in it if they didn't believe it was true, would they? Let them believe it if they want. I really don't see the issue here.
Vaporak said:
What are you talking about?
jakershaker
Member
Core407 said:
WTF
What kind of statement is that. It doesn't just sound racist, it's the very definition of being racist, judging a whole group of people just because of their religion. Sweden NEEDS more people, how do you think we'll manage without them? Economy wise and socially wise we're pretty much screwed if we don't import labour/people (and why don't open the country for refugees then and make a good deed in the process). And to be honest even if you think of worst case scenarios, a diehard muslim fundamentalist won't affect your way of life or 'destroy' the community you live in.
Sweden only gets better with all the refuges we're taking in and we're always on the top five at who is accepting people from warzones. So stop being an ass and actually get out there and get to know some of these muslims that you claim are turning Sweden into a 'total shithole'.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
ItsInMyVeins said:Well, the way I see it is that it doesn't matter. I mean, how could it even impact us? If you are a "logical consequence", it stems for almost an infinite different instances combined. So in the end; it's pretty much a toss up. You'll get non the wiser and everything will still play out as your own choice. So I'm just gonna call it "my choice" to make things simpler
Yeah, agreed. It's just a perspective thing. Free will/determinism = Yin/Yang (metaphorically)
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
In Canada you'd probably get the same effect. There are many religious people here..... but it really never manifests itself in day to day life or politics. The way it should be right?Evonus said:
Instigator
Banned
jakershaker said:
It is racist.
Xenophobia is not exclusive to any country, but it is surprising how supposedly liberal countries go crazy wtih an influx of a few foreigners (compared to other countries).
jakershaker
Member
Instigator said:
Nothing I hate more then right wing populist parties who blame everyones problem on immigrants. Luckily don't have that many of those and they're still quite small. Only takes a economic depression to bring them out of the woodwork though, and to get people "wanting change" voting for them.
Sometimes people just make me sad.But I guess this is a whole other subject then the OP.
nelsonroyale
Member
iapetus said:
actually no, I was not exactly disputing the figures given...I was providing my own experience as a contrast with that of the survey (which doesnt account for the practice of religion just the belief)...I can't accurately dispute the figures, since I haven't carried out a comparable survey...What I can say though, is that religion does not have a very visible presence among many people of my age group who I am acquainted with..well specifically christianity. Survey's, like the weather forecast give an estimation of prevalence, a guidline, this one is too general and doesn't really account for the fact that many of those who 'believe' in Britain are not likely to be as active in their faith as most Americans...this is an issue. I acknowledge that most of the people I associate with have a decent education, and maybe less likely to have christian beliefs, but Im just telling it how I sees it...I accept these figures to some extent, but I also like to draw on my own experience...and I hardly walk the paths of life with a speck of dust in my eye. Maybe these figures are boosted by immigrants though, many of the eastern european communities supposedly hold quite closely to their traditional religious beliefs...though that certainly isn't always the case.
I was really commenting on the low visible manifestation of religion...Im not versed with a lot of those peoples inner beliefs...only it was never an issue brought up.
religion =/= racejakershaker said:
I assume Finland, with much less immigration, must be in ruins? And Japan, with little immigration and a very low birth rate, must be totally screwed? How do they manage? You can claim that a country will be screwed without massive immigration, but can you actually prove it? Or do you think that moral posturing is enough?
Instigator
Banned
malek4980 said:
Not an entirely honest statement knowing full well 'muslim' is used as a blanket statement to exclude people from an entire region, regardless of actual religion.
Jake said that the definition of being racist was "judging a whole group of people just because of their religion." He didn't say that the definition of racism was judging a whole group on their race and using religion as a cover. I was merely questioning his definition, not whether some people who are against Muslim immigration are motivated by racism.Instigator said:
AltogetherAndrews
Member
This might be the first time I've felt genuinely proud about my nationality. I consider myself more of a nihilist than anything, but still.
jakershaker
Member
malek4980 said:
Well english is not my first language and you're commenting on semantics ^^ I think everyone got what I meant anyway. And when people say muslims while talking to sweden they either mean people from iran or from iraq, doesn't even matter if they're religious or not.
And for Sweden needing immigration ofc it's better to have it but it's not like it's a life or death issue. Read between the lines. There is a long tradition of importing labour in Sweden and right now we're in dire need of talent and people, those 2 don't materialize out of nothing. Good economy and people looking for a place to start a new life is a match made in heaven.
Right now we need people in most areas and got lots of refugees coming in. Not using work as a way to get them to be a part of the society and waiting for the Swedish people to catch up to the work demand is stupid and will put the economic growt on hold ( i.e. we're 'screwed'). Too bad some politicians and goverment agencies have done a poor job at this.
But that was not what the thread was about, I just got angry cause someone had to make a racist remark. Just because sweden is one of the most secular countries on the world should not mean that people that are into religion can't be welcome, it should be the other way around.
Stoney Mason
Banned
AltogetherAndrews said:
Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
Instigator
Banned
malek4980 said:
But he was clearly replying to a comment targetting the Muslims. I understood what he was going for, even if it wasn't elegantly written to avoid any possible confusion.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Crushdance you have some excellent posts in this thread. I was going to say this yesterday but my internet crapped out...
anyway I enjoyed reading your posts in this thread and I can tell you have thought alot about this.
anyway I enjoyed reading your posts in this thread and I can tell you have thought alot about this.
The Stealth Fox
Junior Member
APF said:
**** yeah man. I find that religious minorities do have a lot of respect in American culture and are treated fairly (some more than others, but still, there's a lot of love to go around). Granted, atheism isn't really well-recieved, but atheists themselves are still somewhat respected and people just let them be. They're treated like any other religious minority.
With regards to Muslims, don't let modern politics fool you (not talking to APF here, I'm saying in general) into thinking Muslims are the most persecuted minority in the history of America. That's patently false, and granted, they don't like some of the foreign policies of this country, but I still think it's freakin' better compared to other societies with religious minorities in terms of social environment.
Statistics show that American citizens may not be as smart as citizens of other countries, but I still think that they're pretty damn friendly.
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