I sincerely hope you don't actually believe this. The right to custody of children after a divorce is but one issue that is outrageously slanted against men.
Anyway, this is not worth an argument as it'd derail the topic at hand.
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A Masculine View - The Damsel in Distress Trope
- Thread starter casabolg
- Start date
I sincerely hope you don't actually believe this. The right to custody of children after a divorce is but one issue that is outrageously slanted against men.
Anyway, this is not worth an argument as it'd derail the topic at hand.
RocketDarkness
Member
somuchwater
Member
Edit: sorry, thread derailing thoughts.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
its what i've already described, and it would be the same example i wrote earlier about nsmb.
the possibility of a young girl having her formative understanding of gender roles be influenced by ico is damaging, because as a consequence she would consider it normal and acceptable - and as a female who will grow up and become a victim of inequality in every aspect of her life, that's exact sort of mindset our society wants her to have.
Cymbal Head
Banned
I personally thought the video did a good job re-contextualizing some pieces of gaming history. The observation that in WW and OOT, Zelda's being rendered helpless coincides with her feminization (or re-feminization) was a pretty big mind-blower for me.
Riposte
Member
Yeah, almost as bad as thinking you HAVE to tip or making a big deal about pissing in the shower or circumcising your kids or... hmm, any other material to draw from?
It is almost as if you were a being driven by resentment!
Personally, I think it makes her an appealing character. There's nothing wrong with giving her an attractive figure at all exploiting it however with camera angles is not ideal.
Providing a character who whilst IS sexualised positive personality traits is a good idea and this is where some games go wrong, sexualised character with no substance it. Makes the character at least partially realistic and relatable.
Children custody is because women take care of the house and therefore HAVE to take care of the child.
You have a job and a carrer ?
Fuck this shit you have the kid and society expects you to take care of it.
There are also jobs that try not to hire women because the post labor off job time will have great problems on the company
Most of the drugs are thinked about the interactions with the male organism.
The sexualy excited clitoris was only fully studied 5 years ago but the sexualy excited penis is studied since the roman ages.
The male contraceptive pill was denied because it had inhumane side effects. The list of side effects are INCREDIBLY closer to PMS.
Men have 3 times highter suicide beause society expects then to be awesome, incontrary of women who are taugh since the early years that cooking and cleaning should be their dream job.
Prostate cancer is so ignored because people hate to have it tested because the test might cause then to feel less manly (wich means more feminine) because of how society see the anus as something that men must penetrate.
Besides how society see having any disease as a sign of wekaness (wich is usualy associated with feminility) and therefore a huge number of men only go to doctors when it is too late
You have a job and a carrer ?
Fuck this shit you have the kid and society expects you to take care of it.
There are also jobs that try not to hire women because the post labor off job time will have great problems on the company
Most of the drugs are thinked about the interactions with the male organism.
The sexualy excited clitoris was only fully studied 5 years ago but the sexualy excited penis is studied since the roman ages.
The male contraceptive pill was denied because it had inhumane side effects. The list of side effects are INCREDIBLY closer to PMS.
Men have 3 times highter suicide beause society expects then to be awesome, incontrary of women who are taugh since the early years that cooking and cleaning should be their dream job.
Prostate cancer is so ignored because people hate to have it tested because the test might cause then to feel less manly (wich means more feminine) because of how society see the anus as something that men must penetrate.
Besides how society see having any disease as a sign of wekaness (wich is usualy associated with feminility) and therefore a huge number of men only go to doctors when it is too late
PowderedToast
Junior Member
no, you're looking at it right. the game is cynical and not worth paying attention to.
I think it's a weak point honestly. It's just as much about her showing her true identity as royalty instead of being anonymous that makes her vulnerable, more than the fact that she's wearing a dress does.
The series has tons of other strong female characters throughout, Maron, Midna, the Zora Princess, all the fairies, and on and on.
Zelda actually has a huge female fan base.
I could make some comparison about Ganon being a man that turns into a pig and is evil into some slight about men but it would be just as stupid. I think she has zero point regarding Zelda.
somuchwater
Member
Crap, didn't edit fast enough. But sorry, what's your point here?
Culture used to work for most everyone in their own unique way but we've become dysfunctional. Feminism works to overcome female gender issues in an era in which we are trying to absolve the anthropological definition of gender, while Masculinism wishes to take part in the same thing but from the point of view of men's gender issues. And of course both cover their own legal issues as well.
It's not that I'm against feminist issues but I just see their issues and how they are connected (if they are) to the male gender. Masculinism at it's heart is cooperative to Feminism, but just shares a different view of how to do things in some cases. They agree with a lot of things too. They both lobbied for women in combat, for instance.
The issue with masculinism is it's new and so anti-feminist reactionaries connect to and falsely represent it and feminists respond in a reactionary way or in response to believing the party is represented by those anti-feminists.
TurnipFritters
Member
It's almost like there's some kind of pervasive, messed up view regarding the role of women in society.
What exactly does Maron do to make her (an unironic) strong female character ?
My problem with Masculinism is the same problem I have with Veganism in that it is an ideology reserved for the privileged. In the same way that Veganism can only exist in a market where enough money is available to support the vegan diet (a luxury in so many other places in the world), Masculinist theory serves to counter feminism only in areas where feminism is least important. Comparing masculine and feminine rights on a global scale, it's easy to see how women are much more impoverished and abused. I agree that men deserve better options when it comes to fighting for child custody, but that doesn't put me at odds with feminism.
mullet2000
Member
I honestly don't think you're being fair to the game. You're saying a lot about gender roles without saying why Ico is damaging to gender roles. Anyone of an appropriate age (the game is rated T, remember) playing that game from start to finish should completely understand each of the three character's places in that narrative. "a female who will grow up and become a victim of inequality in every aspect of her life" is a little reaching too, honestly, though I understand what you're trying to get at.
Cymbal Head
Banned
I...what?
At least to the bolded, women are actually much more likely to attempt suicide than men. Men succeed more often, possibly because they're socialized to use violent means of death like hanging or gunshot. Women are twice as likely to suffer from depression than men.
Raises horses and races them, lives independently of the main castle. I didn't realize only female soldiers are respected these days. Funny. She also teaches Link Epona's song. She survives 7 years of the dark age and grows up without the hero of time's protection.
There's others I'm leaving out, like the bird girl in WW and many more.
mullet2000
Member
Well, I'm glad you have all the answers!
I never said women's health wasn't extremely important as well - I said that it was in my post. But women's health being important doesn't discount men's health being important too, despite getting a lot less attention. And the issues surrounding Prostate Cancer are a lot deeper than "Guys don't want a finger up their butt."
That is true but lets move back onto topic now.
I made a horrible mistake bringing this up in the first place.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
creating a movement of masculinism is inherently disruptive to the feminist cause. i don't care what motive you give. and giving it that title (of all fucking words) is combative towards feminism and equality. it seems utterly facile to me. there's no reason for it, at all.
the only way feminism can succeed is through mindshare and collective support, if you share the same goals then why on earth would you create a separatist group? male rights is not a good enough answer.
NoirVisage
Banned
interesting. I could believe all feminist feel that way.
Wow lol. I'm really feeling the equality here. Practically showing disgust at reading the word "masculine."
The ending line is particularly illustrative.
Isn't feminism pretty disruptive as well? As if that's actually a good reason to not do something. Priceless.
Cymbal Head
Banned
Let's take the actual reverse of the trope: male character is revealed to actually be a mythical/legendary prince. What typically accompanies this? A decrease in power, or an increase in power? Spoiler:
it's the second one
Tropes like this reinforce the idea that the true nature of men is to be powerful and the true nature of women is to be weak. It's not a question of being able to come up with one counter-example and destroy the argument. You have to consider things in the aggregate.
It's cool mate, I was responding to the other guy anyway. But--and correct me if I'm wrong--your whole thread is kind of premised on this sort of argument. That there is a "masculine view" that's the opposite side of the feminism coin.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
i don't think it's reaching
ok. yorda can't move without the hand of the male hero. the witch is domineering, evil and abusive of her power.
The problem with discussing Men's rights vs Women's rights (other than the fact that it completely deviates from the topic of this thread) is that they wildly vary depending on the part of the world you're from. People using psychological studies as proof of their views are also in the wrong because these studies might hold different conclusions based on the region they conduct their research.
staticneuron
Member
I really hope you are kidding. First of all, no normal human being should have a point of view of real world social interaction, derived from a single video game. Secondly, the power dynamic of the game may resemble the trope except for the fact that Yorda does end up saving Ico in a big way so the mantle of "savior" can be bestowed on both characters.
And this
.. The man has only Directed 3 games. The only 2 released are Ico and SotC. it is impossible for you to say that about SotC so that means you are defining his "rampant gender traditionalism" off of one game alone. If that isn't a hasty premature label I don't know what is.
The video tackles roles that were created and established then picks at the sequels or remakes for adhering to the established lore. In the face of the games with strong female protagonists it is a huge disservice to portray such a slanted view then ignore reasons why it may be this way and not cast a critical eye on those that break the trope. Nintendo was one of the first I remember introducing that trope in the world of video games, nintendo was also one of the first I remembering shattering that trope, and doing so in a way that basically "every" gamer I talked to thought it was great.
Again that is a skewed perspective. As soon as you mention prince or princess in a game you normally evoke imagery of a time period. Medieval fantasy and romance. The trope is associated with the genre more than just fabricated out of nowhere. in most cultures around that time it was uncouth for a lady to fight (not saying there weren't any) but normally the stories reflected what society believed to be true and right, not as a real reflection of what was going on.
It's not a bad point you have there about the princes. I'd argue that in most stories the same thing happens with princesses as well though.
I am talking specifically about Zelda. She's trying to stay hidden and anonymous. When her true identity is revealed, she is in more danger. I don't read anything more into it than that, and seemingly all the female fans don't either.
In the case of Zelda, I'm interested in clearing it's name specifically if I don't think it's really guilty here, and I don't think it is.
It's not derailed from the start. He has a different reading of the trope than that of Anita and made a post about it. It's all in the OP.
I know its a bit more of a general topic than the damsel in distress argument, but...
The day people will stop to think that men and women are like 2 different races processing thoughts in such different ways, will be the day sexism (in both ways) may really start to disappear, in my opinion.
Just like the world isnt black and white, you cant close in the same cage male and females as a whole and dictat what they should do or like, as society has been doing until the recent years, when finally we started to realize that its pretty frustrating and stupid for both parts.
There are a lot of men and women that DONT do what they want (may it be a job, hobby, or anything else) just to follow preconceived rules, that finally are starting to look dumb in the eyes of many people.
Thats why it slightly annoys me when i read things like "i wonder what a woman/man would think by watching/playing/read that. People are very different between their own gender group.
I reallly think that feminism and any other equal rights movement will start to be way more efficient as soon as we fight for people freedom of choice, and not costantly split every matter into gender.
The day people will stop to think that men and women are like 2 different races processing thoughts in such different ways, will be the day sexism (in both ways) may really start to disappear, in my opinion.
Just like the world isnt black and white, you cant close in the same cage male and females as a whole and dictat what they should do or like, as society has been doing until the recent years, when finally we started to realize that its pretty frustrating and stupid for both parts.
There are a lot of men and women that DONT do what they want (may it be a job, hobby, or anything else) just to follow preconceived rules, that finally are starting to look dumb in the eyes of many people.
Thats why it slightly annoys me when i read things like "i wonder what a woman/man would think by watching/playing/read that. People are very different between their own gender group.
I reallly think that feminism and any other equal rights movement will start to be way more efficient as soon as we fight for people freedom of choice, and not costantly split every matter into gender.
mullet2000
Member
That's a very, very basic take on the game though.
For one, the Queen - a woman - is easily the most powerful force though out the entire game. Yorda needs to be led around because she's literally never been in the outside world. It has nothing to do with her gender, and has everything to do with her isoloation. Yorda then turns everything around by the end of the game and saves Ico.
Yorda being a girl was important though because for the plot with the queen required Yorda to be the same gender as her. There's a valid reason for Yorda to be female, and a valid reason for her to need help in the outside world.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
what are you even talking about. do you know what you're defending?
you're right, she'll likely have already been subjected to countless other examples of sexism in media before that point.
Riposte
Member
I always dislike the way people use "power fantasy" pejoratively.
You respond with two questions.
Why not make a statement if you feel the need, and I'll respond to that. What do you think I'm defending here that is so bad?
You're absolutely right about the royalty thing. They don't do anything but amplify the traditional roles and give them added status.
And I do agree that people will get the idea that women were supposed to be the weaker ones through this trope - this thread is about whether the intent of the trope was inherent sexism utilizing the male gender role in an effective way for a male dominated market. No doubt the trope is disrespectful to the representation of females through this and because of the growing female market and social influence the trope isn't very useful anymore but it doesn't mean that the trope exists because of sexism. That's my whole argument.
Only if the coin itself is gender equality, buddy.
Excellent post.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
that's fictional reasoning again though. ueda (i presume it was him) created that world and those rules. he made it that way. that can't be anything but a reflection on how he sees gender.
and i agree it is a basic description, but they are creative decisions in the game that make the most noise and impact (at least to me).
to flip it, final fantasy xiii is a game that handles it quite well. gender doesn't restrict character (lightning is stoic, vanille is optimistic and caring) nor are either sexes demonized. it is written as to say there is value in both male and female personality traits.
You raise some interesting points, and I agree with you on a lot of it.
The problem that arises with the Damsel in Distress trope, is not that there ever exists a situation in which a woman needs a man to save her. I think reactionaries often go to far in the quest of "Women can do everything" that they forget that sometimes bad things happen to people that necessitate the help of others, and that is a perfectly valid thing to put in a story. However, in many many early video games, women were basically a plot device, a MacGuffin. "We need a reason for Bimmy and Jimmy to fight all these dudes... oh, I know, kidnap a girlfriend or something." While the motivation behind using a damsel in distress was likely, as you say, to make the main character's quest noble, and to play on a protective instinct in the player, it still inherently cheapened the female character by not actually making her a character. The fact that this was at a time ubiquitous in game plots definitely posed a problem.
We've certainly come a long way since then in many ways, and even damsel characters end up getting some amount of character development now, if only because story is more important in games now than it was back then. But we still have some unfortunate representation of women in games, and we still have too many instances where women are used as props rather than fully realized characters.
Most would agree that that would be absurd. Plots involving rescuing characters of both genders should continue to exist. Saving people involves a sense of heroism that should absolutely not be removed from games. Maybe don't always make the person being saved out to be completely helpless all the time (but really, some people are helpless and still need to be saved). Certainly when their role as a Damsel is actually important to the story, their development as a character should be viewed as important as well.
I wouldn't mind more of that occurring. There are plenty of examples of female protagonists saving male characters, though it is rarely the crux of the story, or the goal of the heroine's heroic quest.
Absolutely. Ultimately, if women are considered to be equal to men (and well, they should be), there should be a lot more of them in virtually every role in games. I'm not advocating quotas, or suggesting that developers be forced to add in token females when they would be out of place (for example, in a historical military setting). But there should definitely be a lot more female characters in important roles, and doing awesome things.
Ultimately, the focus shouldn't be on trying to eliminate "X" trope from gaming (except in the cases of the most absolute heinous garbage). Instead, the focus should be on offering plenty of alternatives to X, so that it is no longer perceived as representative of gaming. And in the cases where X makes sense to use, do it in a way that is not embarrassing or offensive.
Portugeezer
Member
They can, but woman would still ask for mans help for certain things.
He does have an element of sexism to him, seeing that comment on grip strength in women, and that does reflect in Yorda's weakness but you have to remember that the Queen was a physically and emotionally dominant character too. Ico had both a strong and weak female character.
Cymbal Head
Banned
She's using this as an example of how pervasive the trope is, not criticizing each individual remake on the same terms as the original.
Well, she does promise to get into examples of games that try to break away from the trope in the next episode, and she does have a whole episode lined up devoted to examples she thinks are good female characters. It's not fair to go after her on this point. Yet.
Nobody that I see is accusing the Zelda games of inventing the trope. And saying that the attitudes toward women that the game espouses are meant to evoke the middle ages doesn't exactly rebut the argument that they're regressive.
EVERYONE AVOID THIS POST FOR THE SAKE OF THE THREAD
GOD SAVE THE THREAD
This is a very important point that should probably be repeated several times per page in these kinds of threads.
There's nothing inherently wrong about making a "damsel in distress" game. A perfect videogame industry would produce many such games.
What's troublesome is that it's just so common while examples of the exact opposite - some helpless male that needs saving by a woman - are basically nonexistent, and more generally while other sorts of major female characters are also quite rare relative to similar sorts of male characters.
Most definitely.
Where me and Anita disagree is what social values this is trying to express when the trope is used. She feels it influenced by the traditional female role and I say it's the traditional male role.
Regardless, we both agree that the overuse of the stereotype is an issue and the lack of representation for women is an issue.
Cymbal Head
Banned
So then what's this thread about? If we can't discuss the premise behind the OP, and we're just supposed to talk about the merits of the video, we already have a thread for that
Edit: maybe I'm misunderstanding your repeated attempts to move the subject away from "masculinism." I want to be charitable, here.