Quickly? It took 20 years to kill Pan Am through two major oil price hikes.
If you don't hand in the note to your employer, how does he know you're sick?
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A320 Crash in Southern France
- Thread starter itsgreen
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ok now this is gettin intersting...
Theonik
Member
The fact they found it in his home indicates he hadn't given it to his employer so they were likely not aware of the fact
Edit: Torn too. Yeaaaaaah...
EricTheCleric
Member
Now the big question is why was the employer not informed of this?
There should be an obligation to report when someone is unfit to fly a plane as there is when someone is unfit to drive or own a gun. Where did this communication fail?
Diprosalic
Banned
because he probably didn't tell his employer.
he got a note from the doctor and likely just tossed it in a drawer.
They can't be held responsible if they didn't know he wasn't fit to fly.
Because medical privacy. The doctor isn't allowed to share that information with anybody.
I guess that could be a game changer.
Theonik
Member
Not their fault if he didn't inform them.
Just because something isn't insurmountable as a deterrent doesn't meant you shouldn't do it.
Any measure that makes such an event less likely in future should be considered. I mean it would create one more step and thus one more potential prevention.
Which is why if it turns out that someone did know then they will be in a world of shit. That is why I said if it is true. If it proven nobody knew than they are in the clear.
EricTheCleric
Member
Medical privacy does not apply when people are a danger to others. Especially when they are responsible for other peoples lives.
Theonik
Member
German doctor's confidentiality. If he doesn't inform their employer they just can't know and even if he does, he doesn't have to tell them what it is.
Willkommen in Deutschland
Moneywise lawsuits in Germany are quite different from the ones in the US. These families won't get much.
only one theory:
What if the Co-Pilot had some sort of Illness like cancer or something like that? Yesterday we learned that it was is biggest dream to fly, maybe 6 Years ago they made a diagnosis about some uncuerable illness, after that he became depressive and never told this to his employer Lufthansa. The time passed and he know he was going to die, he than choose to kill him self and many others too.
What if the Co-Pilot had some sort of Illness like cancer or something like that? Yesterday we learned that it was is biggest dream to fly, maybe 6 Years ago they made a diagnosis about some uncuerable illness, after that he became depressive and never told this to his employer Lufthansa. The time passed and he know he was going to die, he than choose to kill him self and many others too.
Considering the sick note was at his home, torn up. Chances are high he hid it, and outside of the doctor nobody knew.
Under doctor-patient confidentialy laws in Germany, no, the doctor couldn't share that information as he had no reason to believe the patient was a danger to anyone else. As long as the doctor has no concrete reasons to assume the guy would fly, he can't tell anything to the employer. There has to be a justifiable emergency. The doctor has to know the guy is getting on a plane. And even then, that is only if the illness is actually relevant to the job. The guy could have a problem with his bladder for instance. It wouldn't impact his job at all. The doctor would just write up a couple of days rest to get better.
EricTheCleric
Member
So a german soldier can be having an episode of severe mental illness and be allowed to walk around with automatic weapons without any responsibility for the doctor to contact the employer?
that is crazy, their laws need to change if that is true. Now they probably will.
Anonymous sources inside the company have stated that Lufthansa was aware of his mental problems but did not act. Though at this point nothing is confirmed and I'm just using local media outlets (Finnish) who are making this claim.
This will definitely be settled in the courts. It is Germany so we are not talking about billions of euros unless someone really dropped the ball and even then they will have to pay the largest fines probably to the state - not family members.
I think it is important to use this tragedy to improve transparency. People who are responsible for hundreds of lives need to be under tight scrutiny and doctors have to react if they suspect that something is off.
Creepy. How much further does this rabbit hole go, I wonder.
Now, I'm all for privacy, especially when medical info is concerned, but I've always wondered why docs give the medical certificate to the sick person instead of forwarding it to their workplace/school where it's actually needed. But that's a topic for another thread I guess. Wouldn't have helped anyway, because he'd just have lied about his place of work.
Now, I'm all for privacy, especially when medical info is concerned, but I've always wondered why docs give the medical certificate to the sick person instead of forwarding it to their workplace/school where it's actually needed. But that's a topic for another thread I guess. Wouldn't have helped anyway, because he'd just have lied about his place of work.
samurai1226
Member
It's not the USA, there is no way in germany to get an automatic weapon permitted at all. It's really tough to get a licence for a gun here, with mental illness it should be impossible.
No matter if the copilot had depressions and was ill, I dont think there's any way the doctor could see that he would murder a plane full of people
In germany only the health insurance gets the information from the doctor, because of the payment. The employer has to be informed by the employee on themself. Without any sign of danger (I dont think the guy told his doctor he wants to commit suicide) to other people it's right that your doctor is not telling your employer about your personal things.
If you have an episode of severe mental illness, you won't be sent home with a doctor's note.
Milchmonster
Member
They mentioned that he was very active in sports, ran marathons and stuff.
Doesn't mean much if it's a sudden breakout of cancer or something but I doubt it very much.
Theonik
Member
I am talking specifically about the doctor's note that was found in his house. The other thing was that this doesn't tell us whether he had a cold, or that the doctor even had a reason to believe he was going to crash an airliner. Even with his mental history it might only be able to piece that kind of information in hindsight and his doctors might not have felt he was threatening at all.
Edit: You see this when these things crop up a lot. They really come out the left field.
EricTheCleric
Member
German soldiers are not equipped with automatic weapons? Only broomsticks right?
It depends on how it manifests.
It's not a black-and-white decision. if the doctor notices any signs of endangerment for the patient or others he's obliged to inform the authorities.
There's no lab test for suicidal tendencies, if Lubitz was "just depressed" after a recent break-up with no signs of him posing as a direct risk during the examination (i.e. he came to the doctor, he wanted the sick note, no reason to believe he would then discard it and jump into that plane) there would have been no reason for the physician to take further measures.
I'm having trouble imagining a case where a doctor just tells someone that he diagnoses with a severe mental illness to go home with a sick note. Because that is what your scenario is: the doctor knows a guy has a severe mental illness and he gets a sick note for it and the employer doesn't get notified. I don't see how that would work without other health professionals being called.
German soldiers don't go to "normal" doctors, they are required to visit the the medical service of the army ("Sanitätsdienst"). And those will decide whether the soldier is fit enough to get a weapon.
samurai1226
Member
Though you meant he got one for private purposes. If you are in the Bundeswehr it's a totally different thing, you are not going to private doctor on your own, at first you have to go to the doctors from the Bundeswehr and they will be included in everything about your health and react if anything happens that could affect your duty as a soldier or put any life at risk.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Automatic weapons in the US are extremely rare.
But anyway, yeah it would be difficult for the airline to know anything if the pilot deliberately covered up any medical problems. I would imagine it can't be a situation in which the doctor informs the employer of medical findings.
Unless the doctor feels there is an immediate threat of harm to the patient or others?
Nah, I mean, the sick note. "CTLance is barred from any work for 5 days. Signed, doctor who." No need to go into specifics. Why do we have to drag that paperwork to our workplace. We already know ourselves that we're sick as fuck and need some days off. What good does the note do in our hands when we're hopped up on drugs or deranged due to sickness. No, I never threw away one such note by accident. What are you implying.
Just for the record: I fully support doctor-patient confidentiality, I'm just puzzled by an extra bureaucratic step that seems superficial.
Anyway, this is off topic. Sorry for that.
Theonik
Member
He only needs to call his employer and he can get up to 2 days off without even presenting a note. He's only obliged to give them the note after the fact. He decided to disregard his doctor's advice and fly anyway.
Again, my posts were off topic and more of a general "why are we Germans so in love with schlepping around stacks of paper" whine. Sorry.
By the way, we have another victim of his. I bet that doc will be having nightmares, regardless of being in no position to do anything about this.
Insane Metal
Gold Member
So, apparently he had a history of mental problems... and he was in sick leave the day of the flight (but he didn't tell anyone)? Wow. Seems like both he and the company are responsible for this. So sad.
GHG
Member
Bollocks to medical privacy if the patient has a high risk job that can potentially impact the lives of many others.
How can you rely on a mentally unstable patient to be compliant and tell his employer that he should be signed off sick and not work for a while? There is no guarantee that he would inform them considering his condition.
In cases like these it is imperative that there is some kind of direct communication between the doctors and the individual's employer.
MonorailCat
Member
Theonik
Member
These incidents always end this way it is very difficult to pass on the blame for anyone remotely involved even though rational thought would tell you that none of them were to blame.
Does your doctor know what you do? Do you want your employer to know everything you go to the doctor for? Do you consider there are illness for which you go to the doctor which won't affect your job performance at all but might still get a couple of days for? If he was stil that mentally unstable, wouldn't that be a better reason not to let him fly? There are a lot of things we don't know and I'm not ready to give up medical confidentiallity for something that might not be highly relevant outside of this one specific case.
Not sure why Lufthansa doesn't have "fit for duty" doctors?
Piloting giant civilian aircraft is not quite on a level with being an Apollo 11 astronaut, but almost. They should have doctors and psychologists checking their personnel regularly.
Privacy should go out the window when you are in a job field where you can easily become a danger to others or the very expensive mission.
Piloting giant civilian aircraft is not quite on a level with being an Apollo 11 astronaut, but almost. They should have doctors and psychologists checking their personnel regularly.
Privacy should go out the window when you are in a job field where you can easily become a danger to others or the very expensive mission.
Theonik
Member
Try telling that to their unions.
Edit: Also we are talking about a total of under 20 incidents like this since aviation begun out of how many million flights.
Not two pilots, but two crew members. Suicide psychology shows that having to knock someone unconscious massively raises the threshold to do something like this. Don't take this course of action as a way to always have control - we can never be 100% about anything - but rather as a way to probably decrease the likelihood tenfolds.
Of course people will still use Lufthansa. They've done nothing indicating negligence.
This is a ludicrous statement. "regularly"? How do you even propose to uncover all problems with just "regular" check-ups? Do you have any idea what medical privacy means? It means that laymen are not going to interpret something they're not meant to. Giving doctors a right to quarantine a pilot is something completely different. Medical privacy is a basic human right. it's an atrocious slippery slope, because you attribute an Airbus as having a particular danger to others. We have one tragedy on our hands, and knee-jerk reactions calling out to take away medical privacy is the last thing we need. There are busses going around my city with basically this many people in it. Are bus drivers required to have psyche evaluations? There's nowhere to draw the line.
What's happened is a tragedy with little to compare, but people way too often cry out for situations where the ultimate fate is Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Who will guard the guards? We cannot have a perfect system. People will always kill themselves. Some will be an inconvenience to others by jumping in front of a train. Others will cause PTSD on their witnesses. Others will take people with them.
There are many links in the chain we can focus on. Medical privacy is not one of them.
I think there are some high risk jobs where you cannot have that privacy.
Look at the astronaut program, mission control knows when they pee and poop, they check everything and it is necessary for these types of missions.
You don't want to send up a guy to the ISS for a year long mission and find out later he hid his psychological weaknesses and only talked to a private doctor.
Just because we have industrialized flying and turned it into a preceived normalcy everyday job done by thousands doesn't make it a normal 9 to 5 job imo. A fully fueled up A380 is a weapon of mass destruction. Do you want a one man rule/medical privacy in nuclear silos too?
Look at the astronaut program, mission control knows when they pee and poop, they check everything and it is necessary for these types of missions.
You don't want to send up a guy to the ISS for a year long mission and find out later he hid his psychological weaknesses and only talked to a private doctor.
Just because we have industrialized flying and turned it into a preceived normalcy everyday job done by thousands doesn't make it a normal 9 to 5 job imo. A fully fueled up A380 is a weapon of mass destruction. Do you want a one man rule/medical privacy in nuclear silos too?
If someone was put on medical leave or is stating they're going to hurt someone, the employer should know. Other than that is doctor/patient confidentiality IMO.
In the US, the privacy is waived when the person poses a risk to others:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_warn#Clinical_psychology
Theonik
Member
Even in the US it is a very complicated matter for the doctor.
They'd have to be absolutely sure of the risk involved to even consider it, and from what we know about this case I don't think we can even begin to come to that conclusion.
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