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[bengraven]

I like how people scoffed at Fry's response. "He took the easy road by giving the simple answer of 'there is no loving god because suffering'".

When quite a few Christians give the simple answer as to why there IS a god. "Because book."

 

[Maninthemirror]

You can definitely have pleasure without pain. Imagine feeling endless elated never ending perfect pleasure for all eternity. It would not be impossible for God to put us all in that state.

if there is no pain. pleasure will not have any limits, like a frictionless world. there would be no evolution as everything would win in the game of survival of the fittest

 

[riskVSreward]

The bible does allude to free will and only really states that humans are the benefactors of this through the human soul. That god made man in his image. Animals aren't covered as free thinkers in the bible or that they are able to make decisions based on morality of if they carry a spirit with them. By this definition the bible would say that animals are not governed by free will... is this interrupting, of course it is, the bible wasn't written in English, has gone through several revisions, and has different accounts from different people.

Again, I'm not arguing the methods of the bible to be right, I'm providing the passages that one might cite when confronted with Fry's reaction to God. Why a god could allow bad things to happen to good people or create suffering in the world, and why we would want to worship such a being that would cause us so much pain.

Right, so we can't really trust the bible as an authority.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

if there is no pain. pleasure will not have any limits, like a frictionless world. there would be no evolution as everything would win in the game of survival of the fittest

Sounds great to me.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Bullshit.

Not everything is life is either suffering or pleasure. Most of the time it's neither.

One could argue that even without suffering, happiness isn't the "default" state of life.

even if it is 0.1 in one direction or the other, even OK means happy or sad in one sense.

 

[Manu]

if there is no pain. pleasure will not have any limits, like a frictionless world. there would be no evolution as everything would win in the game of survival of the fittest

THE HORROR!

 

[Extra Sauce]

Can you prove aliens?

I said "what if", which does not imply the certitude that would come with proof. And you still haven't answered the question.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Sound great to me.

THE HORROR!

then you wouldnt even exist. there would be no cooling of earth as there would only be heat from the big bang. everything would be cosmic dust. there is a balance for everything

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

if there is no pain. pleasure will not have any limits, like a frictionless world. there would be no evolution as everything would win in the game of survival of the fittest

Wrong, but why bother you are just going to link that mp3/article again.

 

[riskVSreward]

if there is no pain. pleasure will not have any limits, like a frictionless world. there would be no evolution as everything would win in the game of survival of the fittest

Your sophistry is from another world. Do you get any information about anything that isn't from a Muslim spin-doctor website?

 

[Futureman]

omg when Fry starts talking about insects eating the eyes of children and they cut to the interviewers face I lost it.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Similarly you need suffering to balance out pleasure

So why is suffering not evenly distributed amongst people? Why does a born rich, good-looking, charismatic, white, and male person not need as much "balance" as somebody else?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

if there is no pain. pleasure will not have any limits, like a frictionless world. there would be no evolution as everything would win in the game of survival of the fittest

I don't think this is true because the world is far more grey then just happy and sad. If that were true I'd be happy every time I wasn't sad and sad every time I wasn't happy. So there has to be a deeper range of emotions then just what falls under happiness and sadness that we would still experience if we got rid of one or the other.

 

[Novocaine]

if there is no pain. pleasure will not have any limits, like a frictionless world. there would be no evolution as everything would win in the game of survival of the fittest

So what's wrong with that?

 

[Chainsawkitten]

then you wouldnt even exist. there would be no cooling of earth as there would only be heat from the big bang. everything would be cosmic dust. there is a balance for everything

That doesn't follow at all. Cosmic balance is just cosmic bullshit.

Please, do explain to me how being happy makes you not exist.

 

[-COOLIO-]

if there is no pain. pleasure will not have any limits, like a frictionless world. there would be no evolution as everything would win in the game of survival of the fittest

Why would this be bad? It's the end game. Perfect existence.

 

[Maninthemirror]

So why is suffering not evenly distributed amongst people? Why does a born rich, good-looking, charismatic, white, and male person not need as much "balance" as somebody else?

that is the point. if the Rich person does not utilize his advantage of being happy to help the poor. he has failed the test of God.

Why would this be bad? It's the end game. Perfect existence.

umm except you wouldnt exist if there is no evolution....

 

[Chainsawkitten]

umm except you wouldnt exist if there is no evolution....

Yes (s)he would.

 

[HiredN00bs]

I like how people scoffed at Fry's response. "He took the easy road by giving the simple answer of 'there is no loving god because suffering'".

When quite a few Christians give the simple answer as to why there IS a god. "Because book."

That is what it boils down to, lol. Suffering is the quintessential counterexample to the idea of a omniscient omnipotent omnipresent omnibenevolent being.

 

[UrokeJoe]

God is past his prime. He needs to show up. Like now, not yesterday.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

that is the point. if the Rich person does not utilize his advantage of being happy to help the poor. he has failed the test of God.

And? See we aren't starting from a believe in god, much less your god. That isn't how this works.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Yes (s)he would.

how. you exist because some other cell didnt survive evolution. there would be no progress without suffering

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

how. you exist because some other cell didnt survive evolution. there would be no progress without suffering

So the baby that was born with bone cancer and suffered for a week only to die did so so others could survive?

 

[PhantomHound]

What if aliens decide to annihilate us with their superior technology? Would God step in then in order to protect Humanity's free will? Also did God create those aliens?

I honestly don't know... but ill take my shot.

God must have created the aliens too, and I guess he might step in as he says he will during the end times. And if the aliens are about to destroy humanity that would probably be a good indication of the end of humanity.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

how. you exist because some other cell didnt survive evolution. there would be no progress without suffering

You can't compare emotional suffering to the way the universe molds itself. Those are two different things. The fact that certain things needed to clash for us to be here on a universal level doesn't mean that we need those same things to clash within ourselves in order to feel the need for personal progression.

Like I said earlier, the range of human emotion isn't that black and white.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

how. you exist because some other cell didnt survive evolution. there would be no progress without suffering

If evolution stopped this very moment I would still be here. Of course there wouldn't be progress when everything is perfect, but there would be no need for progress because everything is perfect.

 

[PhantomHound]

Right, so we can't really trust the bible as an authority.

Depends on your faith. If you were to ask a very religious person they would trust the authority in the bible.

Someone in the middle would probably say the same thing I said, saying that we can't really follow it word for word because of mans interpretation and written word. We shouldn't base our daily policies on it or anything like that.

And if you're an atheist you obviously wouldn't give a damn so it really wouldn't matter what it said either way.

 

[dragonelite]

Bullshit.

Not everything is life is either suffering or pleasure. Most of the time it's neither.

One could argue that even without suffering, happiness isn't the "default" state of life.

I think in modern times curiosity is what is driving us forward not happiness or suffering.
Can we make this CPU architecture faster, can we make self driving cars,
can we colonize mars.

Does makes me wonder what will god do when we humans become a
interplanetary species. Will he bring the apocalypse to all our colonized planets, moon
or other big floating bodies in space?

 

[-COOLIO-]

umm except you wouldnt exist if there is no evolution....

god would just make me exist and evolve me to the height of perfection immediately.

 

[Maninthemirror]

If evolution stopped this very moment I would still be here. Of course there wouldn't be progress when everything is perfect, but there would be no need for progress because everything is perfect.

we are talking of suffering from the moment time began

god would just make me exist and evolve me to the height of perfection immediately.

defying chemistry? you can keep on going in a circular loop but its essential happiness is a positive thing and suffering is a negativity which is as a result of not being happy created by nature and human actions. both exists and will continue to exist. it is how man fights his way through adversity and shows humbleness in the face of victory that is essential for being human, agree?

 

[Arrowgigantic]

that is the point. if the Rich person does not utilize his advantage of being happy to help the poor. he has failed the test of God.

Why does that person get that test and another person get a wayyyyyyyyyy harder test?

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

we are talking of suffering from the moment time began

No we aren't. We are talking about suffering in the now, hence why this thread started.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

we are talking of suffering from the moment time began

No, I'm saying God should come down right this very instance and stop all suffering from happening forever.

 

[riskVSreward]

Depends on your faith. If you were to ask a very religious person they would trust the authority in the bible.

Someone in the middle would probably say the same thing I said, saying that we can't really follow it word for word because of mans interpretation and written word. We shouldn't base our daily policies on it or anything like that.

And if you're an atheist you obviously wouldn't give a damn so it really wouldn't matter what it said either way.

OK so if I ask someone who believes the bible is an authority, if its an authority, they will say yes... Bravo my man.

I'm appealing to the reason that you laid out when I say we can't trust it. Must you move goalposts at every single point of contention?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

we are talking of suffering from the moment time began

Suffering that wouldn't exist if everything started out where everyone's wants and needs were personally met on a whim. If the universe started with everlasting happiness and content, there would be no suffering to be talking about.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Why does that person get that test and another person get a wayyyyyyyyyy harder test?

No we aren't. We are talking about suffering in the now, hence why this thread started.

No, I'm saying God should come down right this very instance and stop all suffering from happening forever.

Suffering that wouldn't exist if everything started out where everyone's wants and needs were personally met on a whim. If the universe started with everlasting happiness and content, there would be no suffering to be talking about.

perfect time to show the concept of suffering and happiness i agree with. its a long read: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_6.html

 

[riskVSreward]

perfect time to show the concept of suffering and happiness i agree with. its a long read: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_6.html

Surprise, an appeal to a Muslim spin-doctor site!

 

[Brakke]

We are having a discussion and it is under no pretense to be interesting to you.

Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, it's not a discussion, or a game with points, or a way of life. You are boring because you are inferring intentions to why Im saying what Im saying without really knowing why.

Take yourself to a boring school and learn how to boringly interact with the rest of boring society and maybe you will learn something boring.

So why are you having this discussion then? Why does this matter to you?

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

perfect time to show the concept of suffering and happiness i agree with. its a long read: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_6.html

Perfect time to ignore you if you aren't going to actually engage in a discussion. I have no interest in continually reading your apologetics.

 

[-COOLIO-]

defying chemistry? you can keep on going in a circular loop but its essential happiness is a positive thing and suffering is a negativity which is as a result of not being happy created by nature and human actions. both exists and will continue to exist. it is how man fights his way through adversity and shows humbleness in the face of victory that is essential for being human, agree?

im not sure im defying chemistry or even physics, but even if i were, god is in charge of both. as for what defines humanity, it's vague concept, but i certainly don't treasure my humanity. i treasure happiness and existence. if god created us all as a beings of perfect unending happiness, that would certainly result in the greatest social welfare for all things.

 

[riskVSreward]

So why are you having this discussion then? Why does this matter to you?

I'm not going to expend any more energy engaging you other than to point out that you are still engaging in a discussion that you labelled "boring." Grow up.

 

[FloatOn]

this thread sure went places.

it's as though there were 4 different conversations going on at once.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Perfect time to ignore you if you aren't going to actually engage in a discussion. I have no interest in continually reading your apologetics.

Sometimes people may suffer without realizing that they themselves are to be blamed—that there is a general principle of retribution operative in nature known as nemesis. They may have earned that suffering advertently or inadvertently, without identifying the cause. It is so because every fault does not result in an immediate punitive consequence. It often happens that nature executes justice against transgression imperceptibly.

However this is not the whole problem. It is far too complex, vast and intricate and needs to be further illustrated with the help of specific scientific examples, hypothetical or real. There are some very difficult cases to explain, like those of children born with certain congenital defects. Why are they made to suffer? It cannot be said that it is through any fault of theirs. If there is any fault it might have been of their parents, yet that may not have been intentional on their part. In this context the term "fault" should be understood in its widest application, covering even accidental occurrence of congenital diseases. Such faults are far from being conscious crimes. Whatever the nature of the particular cause of some defect, one thing is certain that the poor innocent child who is born with any disadvantage is not responsible for the cause of this suffering in any way.

The solution to the understanding of this problem lies in the realization that all suffering cannot be categorized as punishment, nor all happiness as reward. There is always a small percentage of individuals who will seem to suffer as though without justification. However, a closer more careful examination of such cases would reveal that there is no question of wilful injustice involved. They are merely an unavoidable by-product of the wide plan of creation, but they also play a meaningful role in the general advancement of human society.

One must not forget that 'cause and effect' is one thing and 'crime and punishment' is quite another, however closely they may seem to resemble each other. It is correct to say that a crime may work as a cause and every punishment that may ensue would be an effect of that causative crime. But it is not correct to claim that every suffering is a punishment of some crime committed before. It is wrong to say that all healthy babies are healthy because they are rewarded for some act of goodness of their parents. So also it is wrong to maintain that every unhealthy baby is punished for an unidentified crime of its parents or forefathers. Health and disease, ability and disability, fortune or misfortune, congenital advantages or disadvantages are themselves but indispensable to the grand scheme of things, in which they play a causative role. They are distinctly apart from the phenomenon of crime and punishment, goodness and reward. As we have discussed above, suffering, like happiness, is an essential prerequisite for life to evolve and in the course of evolution it is not related to the phenomenon of crime and punishment at all. Suffering in its causative role produces a wide spectrum of useful effects which amply justify its existence.

Suffering has been a great teacher, cultivating and culturing our conduct. It develops and refines sensibilities, teaches humility and in more than one way, prepares humans to be able to turn to God. It awakens the need for search and exploration and creates that necessity which is the mother of all inventions. Remove suffering as a causative factor in developing man's potential and the wheel of progress would turn back a hundred thousand times. Man may try his hand at altering the plan of things, but frustration would be all he will achieve. Thus, the question of apportioning blame for the existence of suffering upon the Creator should not arise. Suffering, to play its subtle creative role in the scheme of things, is indeed a blessing in disguise.

The secret of all scientific investigation and discovery lies in a constant quest for the relief of pain and discomfort. The motivation behind scientific exploration and discovery is based less on a desire to gain luxuries than on a need to escape pain. Luxury itself is, after all, a further extension of the same tendency to move away from a state of discomfort to a state of comparative ease.

its quite complicated

 

[Chainsawkitten]

its quite complicated

All apologetics are contrived and "complicated" bullshit.

 

[riskVSreward]

its quite complicated

Is that an excerpt from the Quran?

 

[Brakke]

I'm not going to expend any more energy engaging you other than to point out that you are still engaging in a discussion that you labelled "boring." Grow up.

I think it is boring. You do not. I'd like to learn about your attitude. It isn't obvious to me why you are invested in this. Maybe you could teach me, make my world bigger. That'd be cool.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

its quite complicated

If it is so complicated that you cannot discuss it then its probably ill-advised for you to continually link it as if it answers anything.

 

[y2dvd]

Why do many hold the bible to such high credentials is what I want to know?

 

[Maninthemirror]

If it is so complicated that you cannot discuss it then its probably ill-advised for you to continually link it as if it answers anything.

did you even read the view i subscribe to ? lol please read and lets discuss

 

[dragonelite]

So why are you having this discussion then? Why does this matter to you?

I think he means its not a discussion what it means to be an atheist, Christians are putting
all kind of wrong labels on atheists.

Its a lack of believe in god nothing more nothing less, everything else a atheist says is
his or her's own opinion.