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Adam Ruins Everything - Why People Think Video Games Are Just for Boys
- Thread starter George Oscar Bluth II
- Start date
WTF are you talking about?
Been there, done that already.
From Nintendo themselves, more than half their customers during the Wii/DS era were women.
It's all and fun with trolling but seriously the idea to expand gaming beyond the shitty misogynist dudebro locked in his basement is neither new or some unknown frontier we have to dream about.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
yes, one of the places that posts tons and tons of marketing and talks about games that would not be talked about if not for... marketing...
Polioliolio
Member
Well maye playing call of duty or GTA is for boys.. These genres haven't really seen female protagonists.
What does your wife associate with female activities?
TheHolyTurnip
Member
Oh, I thought I was on an enthusiast forum where people talk about their experiences with games, the industry, insider information and recollections of generations past. I must not have noticed the marketing, probably ignored it
Oh, I thought I was on an enthusiast forum where people talk about their experiences with games, the industry, insider information and recollections of generations past. I must not have noticed the marketing, probably ignored it
...All of which were tainted by marketing, thus tainting yours in conversation.
It's clear you didn't notice it. You just ignored that it got into you.
BlastProcessing
Member
They were right by the Teddy Ruxpin in my Sears.
BlastProcessing
Member
Oh, I thought I was on an enthusiast forum where people talk about their experiences with games, the industry, insider information and recollections of generations past. I must not have noticed the marketing, probably ignored it
What is your avatar, if not marketing?
Companies spend billions on marketing and they wouldn't do it if it wasn't incredibly effective. The most eye opening GDC sessions I've attended have been on marketing. It's crazy stuff. And yes, it works on you, me, and everyone else all the time.
Pro from Dover
Member
Early games (hell, even today) are a whole bunch of shooty-shoot-shoot (Devil's Thrid next week, woot!). Or, at the least, a lot of kill-the-things. For those that fondly remember your local arcade as kids, what kind of games did they have? (Somewhere, there is an article discussing the 'whys' of most games being about shooting...)
Anyways! I recall Entertech being in the boys section because, you know "The Look! The Feel! The Sound! So Real! ATATATATATATA ENTERTECH!"
DesertOfSand
Banned
I don't really get the argument of "games are games".
The mainstream videogame industry obviously needs to take steps to be more inclusive of the undeniably large female audience, but I don't understand how citing the fact that tons of adult women play Candy Crush supports that.
My mom plays Candy Crush. She has absolutely zero interest in expanding that hobby to more complex or more narrative-driven experiences. I've tried. And that's okay.
But there is no untapped market on the PS4 or Xbone that can cater to the experience she enjoys that couldn't be better served on a mobile device.
That isn't to say that everybody who plays Candy Crush is like my mom, obviously.
Candy Crush is huge, so I'm sure there's a big overlap between people who play Candy Crush and people who play mainstream AAA videogames. But using statistics centered on Candy Crush feels disingenuous when placed in the context of greater social change in the mainstream videogame industry because of how different the core markets are.
In a conversation about the gender skews of the mainstream videogame industry, I feel like there are better and more relevant statistics to bring up than statistics centered around a completely different and not necessarily overlapping market.
In my mind it's like citing the number of female viewers of a family comedy as evidence for the fact that action movies should be less sexist.
Like, sure, action movies should be less sexist, and I'm sure the proportion of female viewers of action movies is larger than what marketing appeals to, but the statistics around the audience of a family comedy doesn't seem like very strong evidence to support that.
But I don't know, maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way?
The mainstream videogame industry obviously needs to take steps to be more inclusive of the undeniably large female audience, but I don't understand how citing the fact that tons of adult women play Candy Crush supports that.
My mom plays Candy Crush. She has absolutely zero interest in expanding that hobby to more complex or more narrative-driven experiences. I've tried. And that's okay.
But there is no untapped market on the PS4 or Xbone that can cater to the experience she enjoys that couldn't be better served on a mobile device.
That isn't to say that everybody who plays Candy Crush is like my mom, obviously.
Candy Crush is huge, so I'm sure there's a big overlap between people who play Candy Crush and people who play mainstream AAA videogames. But using statistics centered on Candy Crush feels disingenuous when placed in the context of greater social change in the mainstream videogame industry because of how different the core markets are.
In a conversation about the gender skews of the mainstream videogame industry, I feel like there are better and more relevant statistics to bring up than statistics centered around a completely different and not necessarily overlapping market.
In my mind it's like citing the number of female viewers of a family comedy as evidence for the fact that action movies should be less sexist.
Like, sure, action movies should be less sexist, and I'm sure the proportion of female viewers of action movies is larger than what marketing appeals to, but the statistics around the audience of a family comedy doesn't seem like very strong evidence to support that.
But I don't know, maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way?
HyperCubed4
Member
I predict Adam Conover will get completely shit on for being an "SJW", if he hasn't already. That's usually how it goes.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I know it might blow some people's mind, but you can find laid-back "casual" experiences on PC and consoles, and "hardcore" titles on phones and tablets.
TheHolyTurnip
Member
My avatar isn't marketing, it's just at from a game I thoroughly enjoy. I'm not trying to sell myself to anyone, my avatar is not a message saying "hey look at me, I'm a cool guy". It's just an image I like, no more, no less.
As for the money spent, of course it works. The vast majority of people don't care to try and avoid or ignore marketing so why would'nt it work? As for who it works on and how much it works, that's dependent on the person. Don't get me wrong, I at pay some attention to announcements, new footage of things in interested in, so on so on, but I tend to look at it all as a magic trick. It's entertaining, sometimes funny, sometimes emotional but it's just a trick. And it's much harder to get tricked when you go in with the mindset of knowing it's all a dog and pony show.
Now, I'm off to go look up info on marketing panels from GDC, that all sounds like really interesting info.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Way back when I was in elementary/middle school, the video game stuff at Sears was in the middle of the boys clothing section lol
WickedLaharl
Member
Did you just never go to the store or what
I'd be willing to bet the number of people playing Candy Crush is still significantly male, even if it isn't the majority. Anecdotally, I've noticed that a lot of women gravitate towards the puzzle game genre so, once again, no big surprise. This is going as far back as Tetris. And we are also ignoring that besides the bright colors and emphasis on freemium bullshit, Candy Crush is built upon the very same foundations as dozens of other puzzle game that preceeded it. Games that, unless you absolutely hate the genre, we have all undoubtedly played, regardless of gender.
These are common experiences. Why, then, do we hold "AAA" games as the primary example of what a real game is. Because they throw a lot of money at them? Because they seem like safe and familiar experiences (which is what *ding ding* the publishers and marketing teams are banking on)?
I don't disagree, from a personal perspective, that most mobile games are unappealing, or that I prefer AAA games more, but I still recognize that they are all GAMES. Someone spent time and money programming them and creating the art and so on. You really shit on the effort of the people who MAKE these games when you say they can't be compared in the same sentence.
Honestly, a lot of them are built upon great foundations. I'd like a lot of mobile games better if I could pay... $5 for a couple hundred puzzles that I could try over and over again at my leisure. The shackles of the freemium business model (and to some extent the control scheme) is what prevents a lot of them from being more interesting, in my opinion. Otherwise, they could be great city-builders or RPGs or puzzle games or tactical games.
I feel like I've gone on a huge tangent here, and I apologize. I think what I'm really getting at is that it is patently unfair to assume because someone plays a particular game that they don't matter or those statistics don't matter. And when something like Candy Crush is brought up, it almost as if it is being used as a pejorative against the female gamers who enjoy it (who attacks the male gamers that play it?).
And it is also unfair to say that these female gamers would never be interested in playing other types of games. They may resist it, themselves, but then I would have to refer back to Adam's point about marketing. People are saying, "Well, I don't see anyone preventing women from playing the kinds of games I enjoy."
But that's because you can't look at just now, you can't examine only one point in time. You have to look at this as an issue of accumulated history. Marketing for DECADES, even if it has improved a bit in modern times, has either explicitly marketing against women or, at the very least, omitted them from the conversation. And a little girl who has grown up in that environment may possibly have been turned away from games a long time ago, never to return. You have to look at the underlying psychology. Whether or not someone explicitly said "GIRLS AREN'T ALLOWED" doesn't mean they weren't given that impression in more insidious and subversive ways.
As for you mom? Who knows. Gamers are aging, so more people who grew up with them continue to play. But for some people, there is still an age gap. That doesn't mean that older people don't enjoy the act of "playing," but I assure you it has nothing to do with the fact that your mom has a vagina between her legs.
jellies_two
Member
Why bet when you can check.
http://developers.magmic.com/demographic-breakdown-casual-mid-core-hard-core-mobile-gamers/
Candy Crush was 40:60 male:female
bejewelled was 21:78 male:female
SuperSonic1305
Member
Videogames have always been in the electronics department for as long as I can remember.
Also phone games are stupid.
Also phone games are stupid.
entremet
Member
I went to Sears. The games and toys were placed together.
Later I did Toys R Us and that's pretty obvious. The whole store was for toys and Nintendo had their World of Nintendo setups.
When I could afford my own games, I went to Mom and Pop stores but by then the gaming landscape had changed drastically. It was the Playstation era.
DesertOfSand
Banned
I have no clue what you're going on about for almost the entirety of your post.
Literally not a single word in my post referenced any sort of argument of what constitutes a "real" game or not.
My post was about the markets that different videogame experiences appeal to, and how saying "games are games" to include a specific videogame market when trying to make a statement about social change and gender equality as it applies to a separate market, even if there might be some overlap, doesn't make sense to me.
Not only do I not say this, I actually addressed how I was very specifically not saying this.
And then we arrive at this golden bit of text:
I love how hilariously smug this attempt at being witty is, but seriously, did you even at some point intend to address my point about the use of a statistic that of a market that is distinct from the market people are talking about when discussing the necessity for that market to become more gender-inclusive when better and more relevant statistics exist?
Like, at all?
So, basically, Nintendo is the root cause for GamerGate?
That joke aside, the sad thing is Nintendo hasn't really gotten much better since the 80s & 90s. They make a platformer that is directed at girls? The main character is a hyper-emotional woman whose powers of crying etc. get her through the game. They focus more on the character & story of one of their most iconic female characters? That character becomes an over-emotional mess, once again. And their image of "girls' games" even in 2015 is Style Savvy. Instead of just making games with compelling female characters that girls might want to play as as a way to maybe widen their appeal, Nintendo's answer is a dress-up game.
That joke aside, the sad thing is Nintendo hasn't really gotten much better since the 80s & 90s. They make a platformer that is directed at girls? The main character is a hyper-emotional woman whose powers of crying etc. get her through the game. They focus more on the character & story of one of their most iconic female characters? That character becomes an over-emotional mess, once again. And their image of "girls' games" even in 2015 is Style Savvy. Instead of just making games with compelling female characters that girls might want to play as as a way to maybe widen their appeal, Nintendo's answer is a dress-up game.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Does nobody seem to understand that mobile became primarily female because of the cowboy atmosphere around video games?
Like, the way people are talking, it just happened.
The way people are talking, it's like mobile games are the new dolls and mommy's makeup kit.
Like, the way people are talking, it just happened.
The way people are talking, it's like mobile games are the new dolls and mommy's makeup kit.
Some gamers must have literally zero self-awareness judging by some of the reactions to this video
Also, if anyone is interested in other perspectives than just marketing, check Latoya Peterson's Girl Gamers out. It's sooo good.
Also, if anyone is interested in other perspectives than just marketing, check Latoya Peterson's Girl Gamers out. It's sooo good.
I'm not sure what exactly the problem is. If games are games and girls prefer mobile puzzle games then ... ?
Why is there this push to get women to buy consoles and big budget games?
I mean I sort of get that mobile games are looked down on by most hardcore gamers and there seems to be some desire to save them from the mobile ghetto... But what if they are perfectly happy with their choices?
Why is there this push to get women to buy consoles and big budget games?
I mean I sort of get that mobile games are looked down on by most hardcore gamers and there seems to be some desire to save them from the mobile ghetto... But what if they are perfectly happy with their choices?
sir_kevith
Member
Id make a wager that women employed by Nintendo, directed and created Style Savvy. Seems a bit ridiculous to hold that one against them unless im missing something.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
The point is inclusion. Diversity.
Women aren't happy with playing macho shitbrains who save women all the time. Please don't go the "they like it" route.
I watched it. He made some interesting points.
Still I feel the video is a bit ill-informed. We've come a a long way from the "will you save the girl, out play like one" days. Marketing still for large AAA titles still doesn't Carter to male and female audiences equally because of the simple fact that not all AAA games are equal in the demographics they target. So there isn't much of a problem for them to target the male gaze when they want to.
But seriously. It's 2015, hardly anyone thinks games are just a boys club anymore. Being a geek or nerd are considered cool now. I've seen plenty of commercials displaying prominent women in their advertizing. A more interesting video would have been a discussion on getting more women into AAA gaming and how that would be done. Now the video is getting a bunch of dislikes from people trying to defend their hobby by all means.
Still I feel the video is a bit ill-informed. We've come a a long way from the "will you save the girl, out play like one" days. Marketing still for large AAA titles still doesn't Carter to male and female audiences equally because of the simple fact that not all AAA games are equal in the demographics they target. So there isn't much of a problem for them to target the male gaze when they want to.
But seriously. It's 2015, hardly anyone thinks games are just a boys club anymore. Being a geek or nerd are considered cool now. I've seen plenty of commercials displaying prominent women in their advertizing. A more interesting video would have been a discussion on getting more women into AAA gaming and how that would be done. Now the video is getting a bunch of dislikes from people trying to defend their hobby by all means.
There are plenty of games that aren't that. So again what is the problem. Every medium has genres that appeal to different demographics.
I think it's funny you are complaining about "saving the princess" but are trying to formulate a plan to save women from candy crush.
Women and nonwhite people and lgbtq and elderly already buy consoles and games. What is being promoted is to reflect this diversity in games, in marketing, in conferences, in trade shows, etc.
And that's not speaking of the fact that hegemonic identities like white straight dudes shouldn't get marketing and games that only feature themselves. Maybe straight white dudes actually want diversity as well.
And looking at some gamer bigots and misogynists, this diversity would actually do them good so they don't hold on to their white straight male supremacist virtual fantasies
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
.... what?
And as for everything else you wrote, you do realize it sounds a lot like "I don't know any women that play games", right?
Honest question: what are your thoughts on gamergate?
The video is much more narrow minded then you're making it out to be. He says that people should stop acting like only women play games and disregards any advancements that have been made since the 80's. Ads for most hands aren't even 80% just white boys anymore. Look at most Nintendo game ads, and most spots game ads are multiracial as well.
People like to say that things aren't equal and they aren't. Nor will they ever be. But marketing is ever changing and self righteous videos misrepresenting general public opinion won't make it change faster. If VR comes out and it's a hit with more women than men, then I'd expect the same lopsided marketing (that probably won't happen).
KingJ2002
Member
ionno... this video fails to draw the parallels between
- Games marketed to the family
- Female developers
- Nintendo Marketing to boys
Instead he just brings up random info... and then says "girls can play too!".
If we take what adam gives us you can come to the assumption that.
- Marketing to families didn't work that well in the 80's.
- The market was saved by Marketing to boys.
you could also assume that Nintendo focused tested the idea of marketing to families (again) and girls in the past and it didn't yield the same results as marketing to boys back in the 80's.
It wasn't until 2005 that Nintendo started to directly market to families again.. only because that 80's gamer grew up and started having kids of his own.
either way... no one in 2015 thinks games are just for boys. Boys may be more interested but there are titles clearly directed towards girls (very niche titles that most boys typically wouldn't play)...
and let's be clear... no matter what we think... if the numbers show that boys play more video games than girls are show more interest then you sell to them (it's the reason why COD, Madden and AC get yearly sequels... the market says what we dont)... but Nintendo has showed us with the Wii that aiming for Boys & Family titles will yield greater sales than aiming for just teen boys alone.
- Games marketed to the family
- Female developers
- Nintendo Marketing to boys
Instead he just brings up random info... and then says "girls can play too!".
If we take what adam gives us you can come to the assumption that.
- Marketing to families didn't work that well in the 80's.
- The market was saved by Marketing to boys.
you could also assume that Nintendo focused tested the idea of marketing to families (again) and girls in the past and it didn't yield the same results as marketing to boys back in the 80's.
It wasn't until 2005 that Nintendo started to directly market to families again.. only because that 80's gamer grew up and started having kids of his own.
either way... no one in 2015 thinks games are just for boys. Boys may be more interested but there are titles clearly directed towards girls (very niche titles that most boys typically wouldn't play)...
and let's be clear... no matter what we think... if the numbers show that boys play more video games than girls are show more interest then you sell to them (it's the reason why COD, Madden and AC get yearly sequels... the market says what we dont)... but Nintendo has showed us with the Wii that aiming for Boys & Family titles will yield greater sales than aiming for just teen boys alone.
To the first bolded,clearly that is the case. Most of the marketing of video games from the mid-80's to the early 2000's proves this out.
To the second, it's funny that Nintendo started a shitty trend and then course-corrected with one that proved massively successful (so much so that it caused its major competitors to adjust their own marketing and development). The Wii became the "Whole family" game system, almost solely on the back of Wii Sports. Nobody denies what this and the string of what people derisively called "non-games" on the DS did for inclusiveness.
It's not like these two ideas are mutually exclusive, so just what are you getting at?
It's about ethics in games journalism or something?
Women I know that play games... My wife is pretty good at super Mario brothers but has no interest in modern versions, currently plays words with friends on her phone. My aunt likes bejeweled. I think one of the female developers at my job has a Wii. I don't know any that have a current gen console or gaming PC.
I just don't see the problem. I'll keep buying and playing games that appeal to me, there are plenty that don't, I just ignore them. It seems for the most part women do the same, ignoring dude bro shooter #473722 and playing puzzle games on their phone, or the wide array of non dude bro shooter games on consoles.
You're all over the place here, what exactly are you arguing? "like only women play games"? Things won't ever be equal? VR as a hit for women? I need to see some structure to what you are saying to understand your point.
KingJ2002
Member
I was trying to show that the 80's and now are two completely different times. Back then... boys predominately played video games while girls didn't... Nintendo's marketing team wouldn't have bothered to aim at that audience if it weren't true then.
now in 2015... that's not the case.
I guess i'm also saying... the blame for nintendo is unwarranted... marketers will always take current trends and go towards them if it means more profit for the company.
The same can be said about mattel and why they never marketed barbie's for boys until now.
kavanf1
Member
Agreed, I said similar a few pages back. People seem unable to differentiate between cause and effect.
Cause: early video games were more popular among males than females. Early video games were more often developed by males than females.
Effect: Nintendo and the industry in general took note of this and geared their marketing towards it. I don't get why that should be considered surprising, or wrong in some way. That video, and a lot of people commenting, are reversing cause and effect.
Today the numbers gaming are a lot more balanced across the sexes, and the variety of games available and their marketing reflects that. Just as you'd expect.
I'm not saying more doesn't need to be done to include women in gaming, both as players and on the development side. I just don't think it's necessary to shit on gaming's history as part of doing that.
MrCunningham
Member
I don't think it is primarily female, but I do think it brought in more diversity from all demographics.
Yeah, Nintendo opened themselves up to wider demographics with the DS and Wii, but I think Apple cracked it wide open with the App Store. Their paper thin submission process allowed just about everything to pass through in their store and in record times.. The App Store had such a profound affect on digital game publishing that it changed everybody's business model. Online services like Steam, PSN and XBLA use to cherry pick the submissions that came to them and were very careful about choosing games that would appeal to specific demographics and what would be focused on their store page. The App Store came in and said "We'll take almost anything you can give us, and we will have it on the storefront in a couple days. We don't care. Whatever". They opened up the floodgates in a huge way for a more diverse library of games and a more diverse audience, including women.
This model has trickled its way into Google Play, Steam, GOG, PSN, XBLA and to a lesser extent Nintendo. I think a reverse effect has been happening where we have been seeing much more diversified audiences get attracted to PC and home console gaming because services available to those platforms have been adapting to match the mobile game market. Though that's not to say that there weren't already girls who enjoyed playing all the same triple AAA games that the male demographic does. Earlier this year I spent a lot of time playing PayDay 2 online with friends, my girlfriend and her two friends. I was the only male in the group most of the time. Except for when it was split 50/50. A lot of women like those kinds of games too.
How am I all over the place? I was obviously talking about marketing and demographics.
My point is the video wasn't talking about equality for everyone in marketing. The overall point of it was to stop people from thinking games are just for boys. But hardly anyone thinks that and video game marketing already reflects that.
By "things will never be equal" I meant that in regards to marketing. Since the video basis had to do with many or all video game marketing targeting the "male gaze". Which I disagree with.
What a crap video, trying to boil down a complicated social dynamic to some event 30 years ago. There's tons of factors that play into the marginalization of women in video games, and they all need to be examined and dealt with. It's not just a matter of the ripple effects of 80's marketing. It just isn't.
Finale Fireworker
Member
But it's a really good place to start.
Who games were marketed towards created an audience. Once this audience was cultivated, it was manipulated at the expense of a wider audience. This meant that games were being made for boys and were being played by (mostly) boys.
Boys buy games, play games, and talk about games. This cycle creates a culture. A culture dominated by boys with little to no female perspective. Many don't even consider the fact that their hobby is exclusively masculine. When they do, they attribute it to women just not liking video games. Despite the fact that video games have never been made with women in mind. Video games accommodate masculinity and masculine mentality. Female POVs and feminine psychology rarely, if ever, enters the equation.
There is now an enormous imbalance between who plays games and who does not. Boys play games, reaffirming the stereotype and creating a gendered barrier of entry where a female player will always be an oddity. Oddities are treated differently by the fanbase and largely ignored by the industry. Women are not accommodated or targeted and nobody considers how to make a product that might appeal to and be enjoyed by women. The feminine presence becomes difficult for one to maintain, as they are put under the microscope by the culture as not being true gamers or placed under a sexual microscope as some kind of fantasy girl who "actually plays video games."
Boys grow up. Boys who played games and enjoyed games start making games. They make the games that they want to play, from their own masculine perspective, and perpetuate the gender exclusivity. Main characters are made to appeal to men, gameplay is designed to appeal to men, marketing continues to target men.
And here we are today.
QuantumZebra
Member
Yea its awful lol, so much cringe in those ads
QuantumZebra
Member
Finale Fireworker
Member
I wonder if they are still rolling it out regionally or something?
My Target still has pink sections, but that's a result of the actual products. You can't make a Barbie section that's not pink, for example.
My Target is organized by toy type. This still creates "doll sections" and "action figure" sections, but they are all presented strictly by their brand and not who they are made for. If you're a girl who wants a Ninja Turtle, you go to the Ninja Turtle section under action figures. If you're a boy who wants a Disney Princess doll, you go to the Disney section under dolls.
The toys are simply presented "as they are," without pushing or reinforcing any sort of gender targeting in the aisle headings or in-aisle graphics.
Lego is Lego. There are no boy Legos or girl Legos. You know what I mean?