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Ads / Content Promotion on Xbox Live - let's hash it out!
- Thread starter Clay Davis
- Start date
Penguins&PolarBears
Member
It's amazing to me that people come out against ads as though they think there is any chance in hell ads are going away. It's fine that you don't like ads, but dislike ads to the point of avoiding the product? There's very few people who are ever willing to go to that extreme which is why companies don't care about the grumbling.
There's this tiny fraction of people who find ads so offensive that they actually boycott things with ads. The vast majority of people are the Walmart/Black Friday crowd who just want cheap affordable stuff. What do you think are the best selling PCs at Best Buy the expensive systems or the cheapest models covered in ads, stickers and trialware software? You go to the movie theater and there are ads before the movie starts, all over the theater itself and even on the ticket stub. You rent a DVD from Netflix and there are ads on the mailer and ads you have to see before the movie starts. You watch cable TV and there are ads on the menu guide, ads on most cable channels, etc.
The value of companies today are based around how many people they can push ads to. Google is one of the most valuable companies in the world today and their entire business is selling ads.
The people defending it are just people who defend MS reflexively over anything.
This is like the guy who said he liked that the Wii U app launching was slow because it gave him more time to listen to the music - impossible to take seriously.
one of those guys said:
If they are going to suggest a game they could at least do it using some sort of "people who liked X also liked Y" scheme.
I don't own any COD games, I've never played any COD game on my 360, I don't own a single FPS game for 360 and I don't think I've even ever downloaded an FPS demo. That a new map pack for COD is available is as relevant to me as a Finnish weather forecast. I don't own any avatar stuff so likewise superbowl-themed avatar shit is equally irrelevant.
Penguins&PolarBears
Member
As pointless as saying: the people who attack Xbox ads are just people who attack MS reflexively over everything.
The fact is that not everyone is equally offended by advertising. There are people who pay for movie tickets just to see a trailer for a movie, not because they even care about the movie they bought a ticket for. There are people who watch the Super Bowl just to see the ads. There are people who love car insurance ads so much they go to the website and download ringtones and apps based upon those ads. And then there are people on the other extreme who freak out about ads, run ad blockers, won't use Facebook or Google, etc.
When ads come on cable TV I know people who change the channel or mute the commercial and I know a lot more people who just sit and watch it with amusement/curiosity/mild annoyance. Bottom line is that ads are everywhere and the minority of people complaining about it vehemently are probably wasting their time.
The only types of ads that bother me are pop-up or interstitial ads that physically block me from getting to the content I want and make me wait. I really don't have a problem with background/banner ads personally.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
They do have that, it's separate from all the ads. It's on the right hand column of the games thing IIRC, and it's called Recommendations.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
It's a waste of space that doesn't really benefit me.
If it was on the storefront, I wouldn't really mind, but embedded on the actual "home" page?
If it was on the storefront, I wouldn't really mind, but embedded on the actual "home" page?
Wickerbasket
Member
Aren't you wasting your time complaining in this thread then? Complaining might not help, but they'll notice when their next gen sales drop if they consistently make their user experience worse.
It's fine that you don't mind ads, but maybe you should take a look at the 360 home screen to understand why it bothers others. The adverts permanently take up 3/4 of the dashboard. People are complaining about ads because Microsoft have made it so bad that it ruins the user experience.
If only there was some sort of premium service I could pay towards that would take these ads away, like Xbox Gold.
I'll definitely be taking the user experience into account when choosing my next gen console, and MS have made theirs worse with every update.
Baconsammy
Banned
That must be it. Couldn't be that they actually like an integrated store/UI to cut down on the need for a 30-60 load of a store app.
I believe their intent is that there is no differentiation between Home and Marketplace. It's all one. Except for the idiotic non-content ads, I think they did it wonderfully. It would be nice if at least one tab was configurable by the user to only include blocks/cells of whatever they want, and then have that be the tab you boot into. Then people that hate the content ads would never see it. Microsoft doesn't appear to do the "choice" thing very well.
RedNumberFive
Banned
No, your first response was correct.
The Dashboard's potential is severely limited by advertisements, which negates any advantage someone could contrive to justify it. Exactly 25% of the tiles are for content you want to use. 75% of it is dedicated to Microsoft trying to sell you more stuff. It is beyond ridiculous.
Clay Davis
Member
You forgot product placement which is essentially advertising.
it's quite possibly the most virulent and pervasive form of advertising and it jusy so happens to be the one most people forget about. Virtually every show, movie, etc has it in spades, people just don't notice it due to conditioning.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
You forgot product placement which is essentially advertising.
it's quite possibly the most virulent and pervasive form of advertising and it jusy so happens to be the one most people forget about. Virtually every show, movie, etc has it in spades, people just don't notice it due to conditioning.
Are we talking about subliminal messages here because otherwise advertising that goes unnoticed is failed advertising.
Nealand Liquor
Member
Lol love the 'everybody that doesn't hate ads like me must be a MS fanboy!' posts. You discredit yourself more than the others you disagree with when you debate like that.
Ambiguous, hit-and-run strawman tactics are much better debate tools, IMO.
ii Stryker
Banned
If its content promotion related to games and gaming it doesn't bother me.
With all thats included with ps+ I am beginning to to question the value of XBL though
*leaves thread to go play Skyrim on 360
With all thats included with ps+ I am beginning to to question the value of XBL though
*leaves thread to go play Skyrim on 360
Ol No Bones
Banned
Haha I think the people bitching about this are hilarious! I still have extremely quick access to all the content I need so this does not bother me. People just need things to whine about I guess.
BruiserBear
Banned
I'm genuinely hoping Sony gets their shit together with this next console, because if I'm honest with myself the biggest reasons I bought multiplatform games on the 360 this gen was because the OS was better (party chat) and the games performed better there.
Signs are pointing towards Sony fixing both of those things with their next console, and I will happily leave Microsoft behind next gen. My gold subscription runs out in August, and I'm ready to stop paying Microsoft so they can shove ads down my throat very chance they get. They are an obnoxious company and I don't want to support their behavior.
That 30-60 second load only appeared very recently. Are you going to tell me your opinion was different before Sony chose to make their store worse?
Signs are pointing towards Sony fixing both of those things with their next console, and I will happily leave Microsoft behind next gen. My gold subscription runs out in August, and I'm ready to stop paying Microsoft so they can shove ads down my throat very chance they get. They are an obnoxious company and I don't want to support their behavior.
That 30-60 second load only appeared very recently. Are you going to tell me your opinion was different before Sony chose to make their store worse?
I'm sure you're gonna make a lot of friends here with that attitude.
Clockwork
Member
I don't know how anyone could defend this.
Having had the 360 since launch and seeing the dashboard evolve from something useful with minimal ads/invasiveness (bring back the blades!) to the horse shit it is now is quite saddening.
Nobody would go for MS pulling this crap if they did it to your PC/Windows.
Having had the 360 since launch and seeing the dashboard evolve from something useful with minimal ads/invasiveness (bring back the blades!) to the horse shit it is now is quite saddening.
Nobody would go for MS pulling this crap if they did it to your PC/Windows.
ChosenPredator
Banned
this thread again lol
I swear sometimes i think the ads can come out and punch you in the face and sleep with someones wife, it's never bothered me like I've said before i barely even know its there because i usually just zoom over to the MY games section and find what i need and bam - who knows maybe some people like that ad thing, I know my mom would if she saw something there.
I swear sometimes i think the ads can come out and punch you in the face and sleep with someones wife, it's never bothered me like I've said before i barely even know its there because i usually just zoom over to the MY games section and find what i need and bam - who knows maybe some people like that ad thing, I know my mom would if she saw something there.
Haunted
Member
Fantastic post.
I didn't know Beat Hazard was that successful for the guy, cool! Very detailed breakdown of the various versions as well, super informative for something that's usually presented either piecemeal or just flat out stays behind closed doors.
Nealand Liquor
Member
After more than a couple posts in past two pages echoing that sentiment, I didn't believe post quoting was needed. Besides the debate is more or less over when one has given reasons as to why the ads are not offensive to them, and others dismiss it as little more than corporate cheerleading.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
I don't mind it as long as I can load my game and start playing it, or go right to my app and use it. The day when I start having to watch commercials before I do that is the day I stop gaming.
Alx
Member
Sometimes I think people remember the blades with rose-tinted glasses. Do you really want to go back to this ?
The best thing about the blades was that they were simple and fast for common tasks. Their inclusion as text only into the guide menu is an evolution for the better. As a main dashboard, they were limited and not very pretty (and had a more obnoxious integration of ads, by the way)
This isn't an argument for having your whole UI plastered by ads at all. The amount of time it takes to load a store is obviously entirely independent of the amount of ads in the rest of the system. The Steam store page loads in 0.1 second, and yet I don't have any ads on my other Steam tabs.
I honestly don't consider some content promotion as ads (even though I guess they technically are just that). As long the content being promoted are new releases of games I'm okay with it and even appreciate it (chances are I'm firing up my 360 just buy said content so I appreciate the ease of access). Now, this is not the situation we have today, so yeah... Microsoft can go fuck themselves with their ads. It's disgusting.
Clay Davis
Member
it's essentially subliminal advertising, but while that conjures up images of brainwashing, etc...it's far more subtle.
essentially, if done right, the person doesn't even realise they've just been advertised too. some movies, shows are much more blatant with their product placement (Casino Royale comes to mind), but most are incredibly subtle about it.
that's why it's so pervasive, it's the one area of advertising people often forget about because they don't ever consider /realise it advertising unless it's very blatant.
and games aren't going to remain free from this, next gen will see product placement in games sky-rocket. it's the one last untapped market for advertisers. if people are so sensitive to ads, I dread to think how they'll fair with next gen titles.
Duxxy3
Member
Sometimes I think people remember the blades with rose-tinted glasses. Do you really want to go back to this ?
The best thing about the blades was that they were simple and fast for common tasks. Their inclusion as text only into the guide menu is an evolution for the better. As a main dashboard, they were limited and not very pretty (and had a more obnoxious integration of ads, by the way)
My god yes. I hate the new 360 UI.
Blades were efficient and focused on what i actually give a shit about.
Roland Deschain
Member
Press the Guide button.
Duxxy3
Member
When i actually want to do anything on the 360 that's usually what i do.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Back when this dashboard first launched, I made this mock-up to show what I'd actually wish they would have done.
It's ultimately what I want.
It's ultimately what I want.
Alx
Member
There are some good ideas there, but why would you want a huge button taking most of your space to launch a game you already know well since you bought it and put it in the tray ? It would make more sense to use that space to display useful info. Even if you don't want content promotion there, that big tile could be split into user-related ones, like messages, achievements, friends,... with metro-style rolling text.
Cuban Legend
Member
first it was Digital Distribution, now it's ads... the Next gen console folk need to learna bit from Valve.
Whenever I booted up Steam this is what I saw, no ads, only games. (Scrolled all the way down, too.) And now with Big Picture Mode it's like my games are a button press away without ads at all.
Why can't Microsoft or Sony just do this? They are way bigger then Valve and have more than enough money... surely they don't REALLY "need" the ad revenue to justify shoving ads all over their Console UIs.
Whenever I booted up Steam this is what I saw, no ads, only games. (Scrolled all the way down, too.) And now with Big Picture Mode it's like my games are a button press away without ads at all.
Why can't Microsoft or Sony just do this? They are way bigger then Valve and have more than enough money... surely they don't REALLY "need" the ad revenue to justify shoving ads all over their Console UIs.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
But... I don't really like dividing that space in to a million tiny little "metro" windows. That's back to what the dashboard looks like right now, except instead of a postage stamp recommending me Xbox Live Arcade games, it's telling me how many messages I don't have, because nobody I know uses the Xbox messaging system.
And I know from previous iterations of the dashboard that the "disc in tray" artwork is actually way higher resolution than the teensy little box shows. So why not use it? What's in the tray is important. Treat it as such.
Alx
Member
Considering how hard it is for them to be profitable, I'd say that all kinds of revenues are welcome as far as they're concerned...
But why is what's in the tray so important when you're on the dashboard ? Do you really need a huge sign meaning "YOU WILL BE PLAYING SONIC IF YOU CLICK HERE", to be displayed during the several weeks it will take to complete the game ? All you need to know is that the game is there and it's Sonic. A small tile will do, and the importance of the game will appear when you launch it and it takes your whole screen for gameplay.
When you're on a DVD menu, you don't have a huge "START MOVIE NOW" in the middle of the screen, after all, even if it's the most important feature of the menu.
Mr_Appleby
Member
it is a poor analogy. A better restaurant analogy would be those ones that have spruikers out the front going "excuse me sir, are you hungry, would you like fried chicken, we make great fried chicken here look at some of our chicken doesn't it look delicious you can have some chicken now for only $9.99* BIGMEATDAILYDEALS CLICK HERE Like Cheese? You'll love this restaurant with cheese! Add cheese to this restaurant for only 4000 restaurant points!
*exclusivemembersdealmembershiponly$79.99perannumallcreditcarddetailswillbestoredforeternity"
Once I've walked into the restaurant you can hit me up with as many menu's and fancy pictures and group deals as you'd like. That's the equivalent of going to the store page on psn or steam. I expect some advertising there, indeed I might just go there to see what's new and being promoted.
But until I click through to that store page I don't want to see any of it.
edit:
most dvd's I have the main feature of the menu is a Start Movie button. I dunno where you're getting yours. Besides which, the rest of the menu isn't cluttered up with HERE ARE 8 OTHER MOVIES YOU COULD BE WATCHING INSTEAD OH GOD THEY'RE SO AWESOME.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Your point about DVDs makes even less sense because
- I have never seen a single DVD that did not have a big "START MOVIE" button
- Anything that is not an option on a DVD menu is just pure wasted space - usually occupied by some sort of looping animation. Therefore, the menu buttons can be as big as they want to be, because you're not exactly sacrificing "feature space".
I never understood this need to make buttons smaller. I don't want my screen cluttered with a thousand tiny little icons scrolling paragraphs of text at me. Whether it's 640x360 or 1280x720, clutter is still clutter regardless of screen clarity. Like, that's a trend I've been noticing a lot of web design, too - this constant thought that EVERYTHING needs to be on the same screen at the same time and you can't ever let the user flip to a "Page 2".
And it is the worst for so many reasons.
Ol No Bones
Banned
I hear every negative comment about this and used to think this was a big joke by people who didn't play xbox at all. I have never felt my Xbox experience was hindered at all and I have trouble wrapping my head around why people are so offended by this.
Officerrob
Banned
Because they pay for it and feel things they pay for shouldn't have ads. I guess all these people don't buy magazines, cable/satellite television, Hulu Plus, etc.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
This would probably be a sound argument except for the fact that there are competing services that don't fill the screen full of ads and recommendations.
All magazines and all TV channels have ads, because that is how they were conceived and now work. There is no changing 60 years of history over the fact that you have commercial breaks on TV. That's been ingrained in to generations of couch potatoes.
But when people turn the Wii U on, or in most cases the PS3 (ignoring the UK), you are provided a mostly ad-free experience unless you actively go seeking out areas where advertisements serve a function (storefronts and such). That makes the Xbox the exception to the rule in this case.
It is the equivalent of the internet circa 2003, where every webpage was covered in 8 different banners and blurry, shitty streaming video ads. You basically cannot let the Xbox just sit on the dashboard for any length of time because it will always, always be streaming video. It caches absolutely nothing. Every time that video ad loops, it's doing it live.
"Oh well I have 20mb/s downstream so I'm fine" I can already hear somebody saying, but that doesn't change the fact that not everybody has that luxury - I'm stuck on a 1.5mbps connection for the time being, and I have several friends who have strict bandwidth caps (so strict, in fact, that they even avoid playing online games too much).
And if the Xbox is the only one doing this, I think people have every right to say "Hey, cut it out."
BruiserBear
Banned
Sega1991 just said it well, but I'll add this.
PS3, Vita, Wii, Wii U, smartphones, tablets, Steam, Apple TV, Windows, and OSX. None of these devices shove ads in your face like Xbox Live. THAT is the problem.
Ads in your dashboard/home screen/desktop, etc are not acceptable anywhere else. Why people welcome them, cheer them, and celebrate them on Xbox Live is beyond my comprehension. The fact that they then want to charge people $60 for this treatment is kind of amazing.
So stop with the false equivalencies. They're not fooling anyone.
I'm fine with some ads, but it should clearly be less than 50% of any one screen (other than a store page). Otherwise you aren't browsing your content with some ads, you're browsing ads with some content. Its the wrong way round.
Pinning stuff is good, but I couldn't believe the first time I pinned something and it wasn't on the front page. More recent/pinned content needs to be surfaced right to the front
On PS3, although its cleaner, I'd still like there to be easier ways to get to recent content - its not without fault either (just fewer ads)
Pinning stuff is good, but I couldn't believe the first time I pinned something and it wasn't on the front page. More recent/pinned content needs to be surfaced right to the front
On PS3, although its cleaner, I'd still like there to be easier ways to get to recent content - its not without fault either (just fewer ads)
BlazeHedgehog
Member
I would also like to add that while commercial breaks have been a part of television and such for 60+ years, the moment TiVo and other services offered smart ways to skip advertisements a lot of people jumped all over that shit
To the point where it actually became enough of a problem that I think TiVo doesn't do that anymore (or does it a different way) because they struck deals with certain adveritsing agencies or whatever - and on top of that, now every TV station, cable or otherwise, has "corner bug" advertisements during shows themselves, which are the worst; especially when they're animated and take up close to a quarter of the screen.
Commercial over-saturation creates contempt for advertisements. Look at what happened to the internet - I'll never uninstall Adblock, and only a very, very select few websites get added to my whitelist (usually ones that I like that have tasteful and limited ad banners).
If you can tolerate or ignore ads, good for you. I'm sure there's a marketing firm out there doing lots of research in to people like you and subconscious information retention.
But ads suck, man. Full stop.
To the point where it actually became enough of a problem that I think TiVo doesn't do that anymore (or does it a different way) because they struck deals with certain adveritsing agencies or whatever - and on top of that, now every TV station, cable or otherwise, has "corner bug" advertisements during shows themselves, which are the worst; especially when they're animated and take up close to a quarter of the screen.
Commercial over-saturation creates contempt for advertisements. Look at what happened to the internet - I'll never uninstall Adblock, and only a very, very select few websites get added to my whitelist (usually ones that I like that have tasteful and limited ad banners).
If you can tolerate or ignore ads, good for you. I'm sure there's a marketing firm out there doing lots of research in to people like you and subconscious information retention.
But ads suck, man. Full stop.
Alx
Member
The main feature of the menu is the start movie button indeed. And still, that button doesn't occupy the whole screen. It's not even bigger than the other buttons.
Functionality doesn't necessarily require size. Size is useful to display information, but a "start movie/game" feature doesn't require more info than those two words.
Most of my DVD menus look like that :
It's true the buttons could be as big as they want to be, and still they're only small items in a corner of the screen, most of the screen being occupied by a purely decorative picture/animation. The button is not bigger because it doesn't need to.
Of course you could want to have the equivalent of a DVD menu in a console dashboard, with most of the space used by non-functional graphics. But considering the versatility of consoles, it is much more convenient to use that space to display info (hence the name "dashboard"). Like I said earlier, it doesn't have to be advertisements, you could have your friend list status, your message box, or your recently played/favorite games there. But using a huge image for a straightforward functionality like launching a game is a waste of space.