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[Papa]

>Religious people are stupid
Wow, quite the insult to over 85% of the world's population. Maybe you mean you think they're ignorant?

Stupidity and ignorance quite often go hand in hand.

 

[Mission]

:lol :lol

Do you sincerely think that you have more logic at your age than the billions of people on this earth currently--not counting the generations before--who actually believe God exists? I'm not saying don't come on here and post this or that. I can't say that. I'm just asking you to please think about your place in the world.

Ha ha - just because so many people belive in something, doesn't make it true!!!

If everyone agrees on something, someone is not thinking....

Of course this and the other few replies completely misread DocX. You read "really intelligent people still believe in God so therefore you are an idiot if you don't" when what he really said was "It's pretty arrogant of you to assume that a belief in God means that people are gullible and stupid."

In truth there are lots of people, like myself, who have above average IQs and believe in both Science and Religion (and notice I am not just limiting that to Christianity) and recognise that neither actually can answer every question. I just don't see them as mutually exclusive.

Not all faith has to be blind faith, for that matter. There is lots to gain from spirituality whether you make it the basis of your entire life or not.

 

[Yagharek]

Maybe a dangerous thread to weigh back in on, but I think for atheists and non-believers, it is quite fine to ridicule ridiculous ideas for what they are. From a philosophical level, there is so much wrong with religion, religious beliefs flying in the face of evidence, and religious ceremonies that have obvious origins in the natural world that have been misappropriated.

I personally think that religion is a 'misfiring' of one of our species greatest evolved traits: the ability to quickly recognise patterns. Unfortunately, we also see patterns where there arent any. That is why people make millions selling pieces of toast with 'the face of the virgin mary' on it. Or why we seem to associate life after death with seasons. Oh look - plants seem to die in winter/autumn. Oh look - they come back to life! I bet we do too! And there you have your emotional support/crutch for people who cannot deal with grief.

Of course, having the philosophical issues with religion is a different matter to bringing it up with religious people. If you are going to engage in a debate, you have to do it with tact or else you come off looking or sounding like an elitist snob, even if they are more abrasive and tactless than you are. That's why people like Richard Dawkins get called obnoxious by dickheads like Ted Haggard.

 

[Sibylus]

I'd just like to say that absolutely nothing which you related as being "typical Christian" ever occurred in any church I ever attended, in my entire 30 years of life. try widening your perspective beyond the holy rollers.

Point taken about the wording (I assume you're talking about the blip about "ghost stories"), but I say again, the scope of the thread is pretty much limited to fundamentalists.

 

[operon]

What I don't really agree with is giving all the credit to God and leaving nothing to yourself. Then you might end up with the Christian who professes that they're worthless and useless, "but God changes all of that". But that's not always the case, some of these people have really great self esteem.

For some its gives the motivation or desire to get out of their predicament, but heard it said that God helps those who help themselves.

King James version is hard to read cause its such an old translation, but to them its the only version. Most evangelicals think the Bible came down from heaven leather bound and gilt edged. Bible studies themselves can be good in themselves, one was all about self control(avoid porn etc that was fun with your father in law and various old men). They don't really go in for sex before marriage and stuff, my wife's minister was marrying us and we had to pretend she didn't live in our house before we got marriage.

The thread is going fine but what really annoys me is the ones who basically are the ones with the smirks on their faces going we're smart because we don't believe in God. Well whoop dedoo happy for ye. As have said before in another thread Science is for the how and religion is for the why. Its for the questions that aren't answered and maybe never will. No one besides Jesus has came back from the dead and told us about it hence we don't have the proof that Science needs to prove something. So as far as I can see no one person can definetly say there is an afterlife(withstanding faith) and vice versa say there isn't. So cut out the attitude. Ofc you can and should make funny of stupidity and daftness. I can laugh at myself, love watching Father ted ( link for anyone never to have seen it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLTnacYvvg4

 

[Asmodai]

Consider suffering through this to be like having to sit through a timeshare sales meeting in order to get a free stay at a nice resort. Ie, you get free stuff by listening to bullshit.

Like the timeshare sales things, they may seem to last forever, but won't.

 

[Nobodyspatzy]

Well, rather than debate the points mentioned, I'll just say I have been a part of a "young adults' ministry" for a few months or so (and to clarify, I am a Prederist/Diest, if I do believe in anything 'Christian' at all) as a favor to my Grandmother (as she got me this current job).

I have nothing bad to say about the people there...but I find it funny that since I have been there, many little points have come up that I find odd. One, the pastor is married to a (2nd or 3rd?) cousin in who he have knocked up some years back. The other was, since I knew some of the guys as I grew up, many have either strange fetishes, and confided in me of these (one is into S&M, one thinks he is bi-curious, and another a furry...but is afraid to tell his wifey). I don't mind, but since they are a part of a particular Pentecostal belief, they are often prayed for to get the "demons out".

I admittedly was a Christian before, so the little thing like tongues and such don't bug me as much. (and in case you wonder, I left that church do to being accused of hitting some girl, a pastor's daughter and then girlfriend, and was arrested, but charges were dropped do to NO evidence...) It's really different now, as an 'outsider' looking in at them. I am sort of neutral to the whole thing bugging me...with the exception of some flak I get for my No on prop. 8 shirt (I expect that...it adds spice to my visits there =p). I guess, for me, it's all for healthy discussions...as I also go to a friend's synagogue for heated debates monthly as well. (Admittedly, reformists and orthodox Jews seems more calm in my experience.)

Oh, and I suppose in interests of full disclosure, I admit that I have slept with a couple girls after some of the services, one in particular is a singer for the ministry...the other I don't know about her involvement. (I'd give details, but I rather keep some of my current personal life off the web! =p)

 

[bengraven]

Damn :lol . My Christian school experience wasn't that crazy, but my upbringing was fairly strict in a lot of areas.

This is a piece of writing I assembled recently but never posted, it's mainly about being raised as a Christian child by fundamentalists.



I went to a camp that was very similar to "Jesus Camp" several years in a row when I was pretty young, it was the source of some very deep hurt. Everybody else was going bananas, and I didn't feel any of that same "holy spirit" or god-craziness or whatever they call it, I just took it that there was something deeply wrong with me. At times I even contemplated that I was the Antichrist, mainly because of the "not feeling it".

I watched the Transition to Atheism video and I received a "Trust in Jesus" ad.

 

[Cyan]

Stupidity and ignorance quite often go hand in hand.

Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand!

 

[Papa]

Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand!

Not so much.

 

[Cyan]

Not so much.

Sorry, that wasn't really directed at you. Your post immediately drew me into Metallica mode. :lol

 

[quilter46761]

... As for religion, I remember watching a TED video where the presenter was making a case that religion arose as a sort of control mechanism to check everybody. They did studies that found that without some sort of ultimate punishment, people tend to think that they are always in the right, and this is not advantageous for mankind as it quickly leads to chaos. People are more likely to maintain order if they know there is some kind of punishment for disobeying. He argues that religion evolved as a kind of control mechanism when laws alone were not enough.

It isn't very difficult to believe this. It seems very much easier to get many, many people to do something using a kind of 'carrot and stick' method that relies on large ideas, be them the heaven and hell of religion or the hero and traitor of nation-state patriotism.

 

[Sibylus]

I watched the Transition to Atheism video and I received a "Trust in Jesus" ad.

Sheesh, the names they give to spyware nowadays.

 

[Papa]

Sorry, that wasn't really directed at you. Your post immediately drew me into Metallica mode. :lol

What is Metallica mode?

 

[Cyan]

What is Metallica mode?

From the Black Album:

Before you judge me take a look at you
Can't you find something better to do
Point the finger, slow to understand
Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand
It's not who you are, it's who you know
Other's lives are the basis of your own
Burn your bridges build them back with wealth
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself

That's all. Your post just made me want to quote the song.

 

[Sibylus]

So in a little "Who Am I" assignment for my Christian Studies 10 class, the document ended with two rather probing/in your face questions:

1. If you were to die today, would you go to heaven?

2. If you were to die today and stand before God and he were to ask you, “Why should I let you into my heaven?” What would you say?

My first draft was more or less honest:

1. I don’t know. (I know you said specifically not to answer in this way, but I felt that honesty was the appropriate response)

2. Again, I don’t know, it’s hard to anticipate what I might say in that situation (I don’t know how long I’ll live and what big events will happen in my life).

Scrapped that, because on second thought the questions aren't very, erm, gentle, and rather smell of confrontation. This isn't for marks, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it wouldn't simply end here. This one teacher is also the teacher for two additional Christian Studies classes of mine, so being totally honest with him might not be in my best self interest.

Second draft:

1. Yes

2. I would say, “I put my faith into you, I believed in your son and his sacrifice on the cross to absolve me of my sins. You wrote my name into the Book of Life, and it has not been blotted out.”

Think he'll buy it?

 

[Purkake4]

Go with a trick question: "Why not?" that'll get him!

 

[Ri'Orius]

Second draft:

1. Yes

2. I would say, “I put my faith into you, I believed in your son and his sacrifice on the cross to absolve me of my sins. You wrote my name into the Book of Life, and it has not been blotted out.”

Think he'll buy it?

Too cocky. 1 should be "I hope so," and 2 should include the fact that you yield to His Divine and Unfathomable Judgment and beg him to absolve you of your many sins so that you can have everlasting life with the Divine.

Your response acts like you're making God your Bitch. Nobody makes God his Bitch.

Spoiler

If nothing else, be sure to capitalize any word that refers to god. So "I believed in your son and his sacrifices" would become "I believed in Your Son and His sacrifices", y'know? I think that's how Xians capitalize...

 

[benita316]

Hmm, my experiences of bible study are nothing like the outlandish tales in this thread.

So, either atheist gaf is completely full of shit or they are confusing crazy people who happen to be religious with plain old religion itself.

 

[Sibylus]

Too cocky. 1 should be "I hope so," and 2 should include the fact that you yield to His Divine and Unfathomable Judgment and beg him to absolve you of your many sins so that you can have everlasting life with the Divine.

Your response acts like you're making God your Bitch. Nobody makes God his Bitch.

Spoiler

If nothing else, be sure to capitalize any word that refers to god. So "I believed in your son and his sacrifices" would become "I believed in Your Son and His sacrifices", y'know? I think that's how Xians capitalize...

That might sound a bit over-elaborate. It could work for a Catholic school, but I'm just trying to sound like a good little Protestant fundie. The Canadian fundies generally take after their American cousins (in my experience).

But anywho, this is the final response I went with.

1. Yes, I believe I would.

2. I would say, “I have put my faith into you and submitted to your plan for my life. I believe in your Son and his sacrifice on the cross. You wrote my name into the Book of Life, and I pray that my life has justified its inclusion, Lord.”

Hmm, my experiences of bible study are nothing like the outlandish tales in this thread.

So, either atheist gaf is completely full of shit or they are confusing crazy people who happen to be religious with plain old religion itself.

I haven't exactly hidden the fact that I live in a community full of fundamentalists.

 

[Mr. E. Yis]

Hmm, my experiences of bible study are nothing like the outlandish tales in this thread.

So, either atheist gaf is completely full of shit or they are confusing crazy people who happen to be religious with plain old religion itself.

Then you must not live in the U.S. We have a HUGE amount of fundies compared to other countries; so much so, that speaking about the amount or actions of them look exaggerated or fake to people in other countries.

Even where I live, (metro NYC/suburbs) there are huge amount of people who go to extremist churches and do actions similar to ones in OP. I personally know (family and friends) people who are.

Fundamentalism christianity is growing very rapidly, while Catholics and other 'regular' Christian sects are declining.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Completely off topic, sue me:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

In the bigynnyng God made of nouyt heuene and erthe.
Forsothe the erthe was idel and voide, and derknessis weren on the face of depthe; and the Spiryt of the Lord was borun on the watris.
And God seide, Liyt be maad, and liyt was maad.
And God seiy the liyt, that it was good, and he departide the liyt fro derknessis; and he clepide the liyt,
dai, and the derknessis, nyyt. And the euentid and morwetid was maad, o daie.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I grew up in the same sort of situation, OP. It's hard to talk to your parents about that sort of thing, especially if they're very religious. Do try to stay on good terms with your parents, if you can.

I must say, it's weird visiting and/or running into people from church after you leave. They always look at you differently. It's always a look that's a mixture of pity and disappointment, especially from the ones who were very devout.

Thing is, I like these people and used to be quite close to some of them. They're good, honest, genuine people, for the most part. They're just on a different trajectory than I am now and it makes things... awkward.

Of course, my situation is a bit different. Aussie fundies are quite laid back and nowhere near as vitriolic as their US counterparts. Latin American immigrants (who made up the majority of the churches I went to) take things way more seriously.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

I didn't experience the drama some of you seemed to have had.

I went to church and took the classes. It was Catholic but was pretty progressive, looking back. I never really paid much attention to it because it cut into my video game time but also because none of the stories made sense, outside of a simplistic "the moral of today's story is..."

Not sure when I became a dyed in the wool atheist but it was 6th-8th grade. A gradual slump. There was no arduous road of questioning faith. I never really believed it so it didn't take much work to disbelieve it. For my classes, you had the fire and brimstone teachers but it didn't really seem to convert anyone. Maybe it did. I did know quite a few kids there that lived pretty regimented lives. People had a hard time interacting with them because they were kind of in a fog: they were hard to talk to on anything, even on religious matters. They either looked vacant or confused. I wouldn't doubt that these people would grow up to be the nutbars we all know and love. That or hang themselves after a visit to a glory hole.

As I said, there was no one snap moment but I was going to be confirmed and I didn't believe it. I went along because why the fuck would I add an element on unnecessary drama to my life? Was it worth it constantly dealing with arguing? No, no it wasn't. I'd just tune out. Besides the religious fog set, the rest didn't care. A few of them were no longer virgins, smoked, and drank. Wednesday night to them was what it was to me - going through the motions to keep the parents happy. Fire and brimstone teachers and teenage helpers tried to instill the fear of God but it failed. They failed. Instead of gasps, they got snickers.

We had kind of a pre-confirmation getaway. During the day, they'd instill us with more fear but at night, they couldn't control anything. Kids smuggled in various contraband and some kids got caught banging a ways away from the large cabin we all stayed in. Fire and brimstone sets had nothing more to their arsenal than cracking down, which failed to produce anything. On confirmation, we all cleaned up, and that was that.

I never felt the need to profess my atheism to others. If anyone asked directly, I'd tell them. Otherwise, it was none of their business nor did I feel the need to convert anyone. I hated people trying to convert me so why the fuck would I do that to them? I didn't care that some of my good friends were evangelicals as long as they didn't try to get all up in my business with religion. They never did. I never had a snotty attitude or flew off the handle over a theist. Saying all theists are idiots is pretty idiotic in and of itself. There are doctors, engineers, etc. that are religious. They sure as fuck aren't dumb. Believing in a dumb idea does not make them dumb themselves. We got the facts so foaming at the mouth every time a Christian dare speak in this forum is more than a little ridiculous.

 

[Peronthious]

Actually study the Bible in the context of when it was written. Compare it with similar works of the period, analyze its roots in the Torah and how that document came about.

Bring those notes into the meeting. You'll surprise a few people.

 

[Sibylus]

Actually study the Bible in the context of when it was written. Compare it with similar works of the period, analyze its roots in the Torah and how that document came about.

Bring those notes into the meeting. You'll surprise a few people.

Perhaps, but I don't want to start a ruckus :lol . Blending in is my favoured MO right now.

 

[Peronthious]

Real Bible study is actually quite interesting, particularly looking at the progression from Mark to Matthew to Luke to John. Mark, for instance, has a reference to Jesus speaking to a crowd in Nazareth - and being called by someone from the crowd the "son of Mary". Such an identification in Jewish culture then would have never happened unless the person's parentage was in question.

Then there are the many parallels between the stories about Elijah and Elisha and those around Jesus' life. What I'm particularly intrigued by is what it was about Jesus that caused people to fashion these stories about him.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

Another gem thread from Gaming Athiesm Forums.

 

[Sibylus]

Real Bible study is actually quite interesting, particularly looking at the progression from Mark to Matthew to Luke to John. Mark, for instance, has a reference to Jesus speaking to a crowd in Nazareth - and being called by someone from the crowd the "son of Mary". Such an identification in Jewish culture then would have never happened unless the person's parentage was in question.

Then there are the many parallels between the stories about Elijah and Elisha and those around Jesus' life. What I'm particularly intrigued by is what it was about Jesus that caused people to fashion these stories about him.

Personality cult, maybe? I'm really curious as to what happened in the aftermath in the Crucifixion. Maybe tons of his followers lost their heads after Jesus died and scattered to the wind, but I imagine that the ones that kept their heads and did damage control were the ones that ended up writing the New Testament.

That's just speculation on my part, though, but I'm very curious as to what might have happened.

Another gem thread from Gaming Athiesm Forums.

That "i before e" rule? Doesn't apply here.

 

[Chaplain]

That's just speculation on my part, though, but I'm very curious as to what might have happened.

A good book that answers those questions and it is free to read online:

http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

 

[Sibylus]

A good book that answers those questions and it is free to read online:

http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

"As it is not our business to enlarge upon our Savior's history, either before or after His crucifixion..."

Aw.

Thanks for the link though, it's an interesting read (structured a bit oddly but oh well).

 

[Sibylus]

Well, there's another study in a few hours (been a week already?). Contemplating on whether I should bring my KJV along or not, as it sat totally unused last time. Was actually kinda hoping we'd study something last week.

Also got an assignment (Christian Studies) for a poster featuring one of "God's names". Edited two NASA photos (one of the Hubble Deep Field pics and an Earth orbit pic) together and submitted that summabitch.

DAT BLOOM

Spoiler

Yeah, yeah, I know the transition sucks.

 

[MrPing1000]

Living in a fairly religious part of the UK (Northern Ireland) and generally avoiding religion, I have especially when I was younger gotten roped into it by my grandmother and a few other people.

They were never as insane as American christians seem to be. Must be the water. Although in this country, religion is never really a good topic of conversation, ever.

 

[Masta_Killah]

I was raised catholic and my bible/confirmation classes were never bat shit insane like the OP's. It was actually pretty cool and did not involve any crazy rituals. We talked about faith and how it can help you in your daily life, as well as some bible passages. There was always a clear distinction between faith and reality, having the bible as a guide for personal enlightenment(this was emphasized quite a bit). We even talked about other faiths and the plus and minuses of each one.

Today Im nonreligious borderline atheist. After seeing how religion and faith were used for political gain, I've distanced myself from any type of organized religion and believe that all of it is corrupt and are the opposite of what the bible taught. I'm reminded by the corruption everyday when I talk to my Christian friends, who tell me the drama that occurs within their church organizations.

 

[finskninja]

Some other dull testimonies of “supernatural money situations” followed. Some girl got a job. Another girl prayed for a truck and was given a truck by a friend. One guy was living in Singapore and got to travel around via the generosity of a total stranger.

That's what it comes down to, pray to get more stuff that you want. Best way to reel in members (read idiots)

There was some additional talk about end times and Muslims and “100 year plans” about infiltrating the government and the banks and the like, but I didn’t pick up much of that.

Sounds more like something hitler would have said than someone spreading the "good word" or what the hell they like to call it.
They should get into The Apocrypha aswell to complete their selection of fables to teach There is atleast some good stories in those.

 

[Sibylus]

I don't know if many of you Gaffers are familiar with the Atheist Experience (TV show run out of Austin, Texas and is uploaded to youtube occasionally), but there's a sort-of recent video where a caller calls in about his experience at a "Jesus Camp". Having gone to one as a little kid (they did it all there, sermons, speaking in tongues, more sermons, etc) for a few years, there's a lot of creepy parallels and deju vu moments. This guy shot video of the camp, which is located here.

The show itself:
Part 1
Part 2

Getting guilted out of my candy money, oh the memories.

Spoiler

I haven't witnessed anything remotely as crazy as a strap-on at Jesus Camp, though :lol .