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[ram]

This doesn't change the fact that Japan's gaming sector isn't in trouble.

sure - look at the software sales - good games are getting only sluggish sales (and even SMG isnt such a hot seller) - the video game business is truly global now - and even japanese developers need to realise, that nobody in the western world wants to play 3d games from 1995 (baroque for example) or even more stupid shit. and yes, you can make money from videogames - just look at assassins creed.

btw. i dont say, all thing are better with western developers. i`ll really wish, they would spend so much time on polishing their games (ubi soft i am looking at you) like their asian counterparts.

 

[M°°nblade]

What?!

NG2 looks so much like Sigma it's gotta be using a slightly tweaked version of the same engine.

I highly doubt that. I read a lot of interviews and they sounded very competitive with that 'the student versus master Itagaki' attitude.
Because the results look so similar I have reason to believe that Itagaki didn't use the sigma engine as a base for NG2. Instead, both teams started from the same old xbox game and waisted two teams and twice as much work to get the same results.

Competing between AND within companies (internal competition between different divisions) almost killed sony and now it seems to be slowing down Japanese next-gen games development.

Look at what naughty dog and insomniac were able to achieve in one year by sharing technology. Uncharted (as in THE best looking PS3 game) was made by a company that counts only 85 employees. That's sick.

 

[Kittonwy]

sure - look at the software sales - good games are getting only sluggish sales (and even SMG isnt such a hot seller) - the video game business is truly global now - and even japanese developers need to realise, that nobody in the western world wants to play 3d games from 1995 (baroque for example) or even more stupid shit. and yes, you can make money from videogames - just look at assassins creed.

btw. i dont say, all thing are better with western developers. i`ll really wish, they would spend so much time on polishing their games (ubi soft i am looking at you) like their asian counterparts.

The problem is that a lot of Japanese devs are still in the process of making their first current gen game while a significant number of western devs are onto their second or even third title, it's going to take some time for Japanese devs to even catch up technologically. I think people citing GT5 forgot how much GTHD got bashed initally for its visuals when it was still very early, I can't imagine how developers like Atlus would struggle if and when they decide to tackle current gen development.

 

[Steroyd]

Errr, hello from NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1, PS2?

If we're talking about blockbuster hits then yeah, but there was too much crap that never made it out of Japan to dominate the charts, lets all lol at Europe.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Maybe Japanese devs are a little bit "behind" in technology, but at least (most of) their games aren't sluggish stuttering barely-30-fps screen-tear-a-thons of popping textures and shaders, in-your-face bad LODs, and atrocious loading times featuring nothing but bald characters due to the inability of their artists to model hair.

 

[Feindflug]

Japan may be in trouble but there's still Team ICO, Capcom, Square-Enix, Polyphony Digital, Kojima Productions and Level 5 that are very talented devs and create beautiful graphics engines.

Seriously I can't wait to see Team ICO's new project.

 

[Mamesj]

Instead of looking for a ll the shovelware, which I am aware exists in the western market, why not look at the decent games that are already out this gen.

Western Devs
Uncharted
Gears of War
Unreal Tournament 3
Ratchet and Clank
Heavenly Sword
MotorStorm
Bioshock
Orange Box
Call of Duty
Crysis
Skate
Warhawk
Assasins Creed

Japanese Devs
GT5
Super Mario Galaxy
Folklore
Virtua Fighter

Obviously there are more, but the fact that most of this years big games are western means there is more decent games produced by western devs.

:lol I hate list wars SO much. "Obviously there are more" yeah, no shit! way to list 4 games!

I'm not doubting that western devs have really pulled through so far this gen, but man, what the hell...

Congratulations, you failed high school american history. "Jim Crow" is not a person.

as if that negates his point somehow...

 

[Kittonwy]

I highly doubt that. I read a lot of interviews and they sounded very competitive with that 'the student versus master Itagaki' attitude.
Because the results look so similar I have reason to believe that Itagaki didn't use the sigma engine as a base for NG2. Instead, both teams started from the same old xbox game and waisted two teams and twice as much work to get the same results.

Competing between AND within companies (internal competition between different divisions) almost killed sony and now it seems to be killing the Japanese games development.

Look at what naughty dog and insomniac were able to achieve in one year by sharing technology. Uncharted was made by a company that counts only 85 employees. That's sick.

SCEWW devs have the advantage of having talented programmers from Naughty Dog and other internal Sony teams as a part of the ICE team essentially contributing significantly to the EDGE tools, it will depend if the Japanese developers would take advantage of these tools or if they want to start from scratch in order to build their own engine.

 

[Dali]

Instead of looking for a ll the shovelware, which I am aware exists in the western market, why not look at the decent games that are already out this gen.

Western Devs
Uncharted
Gears of War
Unreal Tournament 3
Ratchet and Clank
Heavenly Sword
MotorStorm
Bioshock
Orange Box
Call of Duty
Crysis
Skate
Warhawk
Assasins Creed

Japanese Devs
GT5
Super Mario Galaxy
Folklore
Virtua Fighter

Obviously there are more, but the fact that most of this years big games are western means there is more decent games produced by western devs.

Off the top of my head you are missing a few notables on the Japanese side (Blue Dragon, Metroid Prime 3, Lost Planet), which doesn't lend itself to supporting your claim. I'm not entirely disputing what you are saying. If we sit down and compare the number of competent (which is subjective to begin with) next-gen games made in Japan to those made elsewhere, then the West may very-well come out on top. Your incomplete list doesn't really help prove your point though.

 

[Femmeworth]

Off the top of my head you are missing a few notables on the Japanese side (Blue Dragon, Metroid Prime 3, Lost Planet), which doesn't lend itself to supporting your claim. I'm not entirely disputing what you are saying. If we sit down and compare the number of competent (which is subjective to being with) next-gen games made in Japan those made elsewhere then the West may very-well come out on top. Your incomplete list doesn't really help prove your point though.

The Prime series is made by Americans.

metroid prime 3 was developed at retro in texas, though, right? published by nintendo though, i guess

Yes.

 

[beelzebozo]

metroid prime 3 was developed at retro in texas, though, right? published by nintendo though, i guess

 

[Dali]

The Prime series is made by Americans.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. My point remains, though.

 

[ram]

The problem is that a lot of Japanese devs are still in the process of making their first current gen game while a significant number of western devs are onto their second or even third title, it's going to take some time for Japanese devs to even catch up technologically.

sure, but its not my problem - its theirs and only another sign, that they are generally behind the tech curve now.

for example, just look at konami. so far their only current gen game is PES 2008 and even that is not an awesome game by any means.

when i look back at the ps2 (which was not an easy machine too), then i see: shadow of memories, silent hill 2, zone of the enders, metal gear solid 2, ring of red... and that was roughly within one year. where are such games now? what is konami doing?

 

[segarr]

as if that negates his point somehow...

What was his point exactly? Something like Japanese developers only make rape games?

 

[M°°nblade]

Off the top of my head you are missing a few notables on the Japanese side (Blue Dragon, Metroid Prime 3, Lost Planet), which doesn't lend itself to supporting your claim. I'm not entirely disputing what you are saying. If we sit down and compare the number of competent (which is subjective to begin with) next-gen games made in Japan to those made elsewhere, then the West may very-well come out on top. Your incomplete list doesn't really help prove your point though.

I don't want to start incomplete list wars but Lost planet is the only game I can count as a technological achievement.
MP3 is made in America and not even a next-gen product. Both Blue dragon and Lost oddyssey's engine falls apart. They're like ... the first j-rpg I've ever played that feature sub-30fps turn based combat.

 

[Dali]

sure, but its not my problem - its theirs and only another sign, that they are generally behind the tech curve now.

for example, just look at konami. so far their only current gen game is PES 2008 and even that is not an awesome game by any means.

when i look back at the ps2 (which was not an easy machine too), then i see: shadow of memories, silent hill 2, zone of the enders, metal gear solid 2, ring of red... and that was roughly within one year. where are such games now? what is konami doing?

It seems like right now Konami = MGS4. They've released some handheld stuff and a DDR rehash to keep them afloat, but until MGS4 is out the door I wouldn't expect anything earth-shattering from them. For this reason, I hope this is either the last MGS we see or it bombs so plans for another will be cancelled.

I don't want to start incomplete list wars but Lost planet is the only game I can count as a technological achievement.
MP3 is not even a next-gen product and both Blue dragon and Lost oddyssey's engine fall apart. They're like the first j-rpg I've ever played that feature sub-30fps turn based combat.

In his list he didn't say amazing tech, he said "decent" games. He included Galaxy in his list, so I took it he wasn't excluding Wii games. Also Mass Effect has been said to have its problems (I don't know of this first-hand), but I'm sure it would have been included if it would have crossed his mind.

 

[Y2Kev]

Japan's market situation is certainly precarious, but I don't really think their development talent is lagging or anything.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Maybe Japanese devs are a little bit "behind" in technology, but at least (most of) their games aren't sluggish stuttering barely-30-fps screen-tear-a-thons of popping textures and shaders, in-your-face bad LODs, and atrocious loading times featuring nothing but bald characters due to the inability of their artists to model hair.

If you count out almost every 360 japanese game, that is...

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Well the biggest thing that still sticks in my craw about Japanese developers is their ignorance of on-line gaming.

Why is there no co-op on-line play in Dynasty Warriors 6? For that matter, why is on-line co-op not an option in most co-op titles? Nevermind online fighting games like Street Fighter, etc.

And now I have this crazy vision of Nippon Ichi doing something MMORPG-like and it looking like Disgaea 3.

 

[Dibbz]

:lol I hate list wars SO much. "Obviously there are more" yeah, no shit! way to list 4 games!

Name me two games from Japanese devs that can stand up to the likes of Uncharted, Unreal and Assasins Creed technologically speaking, that are already out.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Name me two games from Japanese devs that can stand up to the likes of Uncharted, Unreal and Assasins Creed technologically speaking, that are already out.

They're not out, because as others in this thread have pointed out on the first page - Japanese developers were pinning their hopes on PS3. So we haven't seen Japanese development in full swing yet.

But given how completely screwed up the market is right now, I doubt we'll ever see that. Because I fear rather than develop for Gaijin Failure Box2, they'll just focus on Wii titles. :X

 

[Dali]

But given how completely screwed up the market is right now, I doubt we'll ever see that. Because I fear rather than develop for Gaijin Failure Box2, they'll just focus on DS titles. :X

Fixed

 

[beelzebozo]

i was hoping someone would turn this into a "wii and ds are ruining gaming" thread. thank goodness

 

[linsivvi]

Haven't Japanese developers been behind technology wise for quite a long time? What were the Japanese making when Doom, Flight Simulator, Unreal, Quake were released? It's just that Western developers are concentrating a lot more on console than on PC that people start to notice, no?

 

[Dibbz]

They're not out, because as others in this thread have pointed out on the first page - Japanese developers were pinning their hopes on PS3. So we haven't seen Japanese development in full swing yet.

But given how completely screwed up the market is right now, I doubt we'll ever see that. Because I fear rather than develop for Gaijin Failure Box2, they'll just focus on Wii titles. :X

Thats my point! Their market is in shambles because they are not willing to risk putting in the money, but would rather get by with DS/Wii/PS2 titles.

 

[ram]

They're not out, because as others in this thread have pointed out on the first page - Japanese developers were pinning their hopes on PS3. So we haven't seen Japanese development in full swing yet.

and what? the beginning of a new console cycle is the best time to start new franchise. also, more and more jap. devs should start targeting their games to a worldwide market.

 

[Zilch]

as if that negates his point somehow...

Oh, that pointlessness is exactly what I'm going for. This thread is full of ridiculous disagreements. I just wanted to make one more.

 

[Dibbz]

and what? the beginning of a new console cycle is the best time to start new franchise. also, more and more jap. devs should start targeting their games to a worldwide market.

Exactely. It's not an excuse for Japanese devs, that they were hoping the PS3 would do better than it did. What about the western devs that poured all that time and money into their games that are already out for the console?

 

[Fio]

The japanese gaming market has been dominated by that generic anime crap. Almost every fucking game has anime characters, embarrassing sentimental lines about love, friendship, your dreams, etc... This is disgusting and it's killing the japanese market and its well known creativity.
How such a rich culture ended up like this, is beyond me.

 

[Dali]

Exactely. It's not an excuse for Japanese devs, that they were hoping the PS3 would do better than it did. What about the western devs that poured all that time and money into their games that are already out for the console?

That's the point of this entire thread. Western developers aren't doing everything from scratch. They share knowledge and have figured out ways to make what some would consider good looking games without needing an exorbitant amount of time or taking as big a hit financially as J-developers.

 

[AtomicShroom]

If you count out almost every 360 japanese game, that is...

Wait, what!?

Which games have you played?

I don't recall any of those issues in: Ridge Racer 6, Enchanted Arms, Lost Planet, Dead Rising, DOA4, Beautiful Katamari...

 

[iidesuyo]

To some extent he's right. Watching MGS4 gameplay videos, I don't find them that impressive anymore. Meanwhile games like CoD4 or Crysis have already been released, and lot's of awesome western stuff will follow. And the gameplay of Japanese games is often stuck in the past. As much as I liked MGS3, playing the actual game was very frustrating at times.

 

[beelzebozo]

i guess i just don't see the big gap that he does

 

[karasu]

Why are people even mentioning Crysis? It's amazing looking but it's a PC game. No Wetern console developer has matched Crysis' visuals either. Japanese devs don't even make PC games!

 

[Shinjitsu]

Maybe Japanese devs are a little bit "behind" in technology, but at least (most of) their games aren't sluggish stuttering barely-30-fps screen-tear-a-thons of popping textures and shaders, in-your-face bad LODs, and atrocious loading times featuring nothing but bald characters due to the inability of their artists to model hair.

Wow welcome to early games in a consoles life cycle, It's called pushing the technology forward. A few of the developers seem to be working threw the issues (looking at you COD4), but you can still chock a lot of your complaints to developers getting a grasp on newly developed engines, and the tricks of developing for new hardware.

Doesn't change that fact that a lot of these games with "sluggish stuttering barely-30-fps screen-tear-a-thons" as you so blindly put it are still fantastic VERY playable and enjoyable if not amazing games.

I wish gaf would get over it's "OMG LOW FRAME RATE" fetish, it's getting fucking old.

 

[Dibbz]

That's the point of this entire thread. Western developers aren't doing everything from scratch. They share knowledge and have figured out ways to make what some would consider good looking games without needing an exorbitant amount of time or taking as big a hit financially as J-developers.

Therefore most Japanese developers are behind. I can't see how people can sit here and defend them.

 

[MisterHero]

The japanese gaming market has been dominated by that generic anime crap. Almost every fucking game has anime characters, embarrassing sentimental lines about love, friendship, your dreams, etc... This is disgusting and it's killing the japanese market and its well known creativity.
How such a rich culture ended up like this, is beyond me.

Because Americans eat it up. :lol

 

[Dibbz]

Because Americans eat it up. :lol

Majority of these animu games don't even make it outside of Japan. :/

 

[Kittonwy]

and what? the beginning of a new console cycle is the best time to start new franchise. also, more and more jap. devs should start targeting their games to a worldwide market.

The problem is that they were still clinging onto the PS2 for dear life, this is bad for both the Japanese devs who are planning to release games on the PS3 and Sony/PS3 in the long run.

You can't start your current gen development without some kind of commitment, there's really no easing into it because your PS2+ product will look like ass.

You can't have a console in Japan basically waiting for these Japanese developers to start releasing their games, everything is about forward momentum, right now current-gen hardware in Japan (not talking about the wii) have no forward momentum, and Japanese developers are waiting for the PS3 to build its userbase in Japan but WTF is the PS3 going to build its userbase on when Japanese developers are still sitting on the sidelines? Even Sony's own producers in Japan are probably trying to look after their own asses by greenlighting more PS2 games from third-party devs working on Sony IPs. Fucking Media Vision ftmfl.

It's like not willing to get on the field until the team starts winning and you have like 3 guys on the field trying hard to win and they can't because you have fucking dudes sitting on the bench not wanting to come on. This is fucking problematic especially for people who have bought consoles expecting to have some fucking games to play rawr. Worst of all in the US you have EXACTLY this situation going on with Sony's own Santa Monica studio adopting this very fucking philosophy making God of War 2 for the PS2, what are third-party publishers supposed to think?

 

[MisterHero]

Majority of these animu games don't even make it outside of Japan. :/

True enough, yet DBZ, Pokemon, Naruto, those are/were huge in Japan and in the case of Dragon Ball, has been retired for quite some time. I was living there when GT ended and DB/DBZ had just started in the states. So popular that American art styles, especially in comics/animation have been inspired by them.

I guess I'm just tired of it.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Congratulations, you failed high school american history. "Jim Crow" is not a person.

Yeah, it's not a person.

It was a character in a minstrel act, looks like someone also failed High School American History.

 

[jman2050]

This thread got dumb fast. People who chastise Japanese devs for 'old' gameplay (seriously, wtf is that supposed to mean) in the same breath as mentioning them being behind the tech curve (which is really the only legitimate argument in this thread), with those on the other side defending anything Japanese-made to the death.

At the very least we haven't gotten to 'Wii/DS are ruining gaming' full-on yet, but we're heading that direction.

 

[underfooter]

All I know is that last generation the only game that came close to RE4 or MGS3 for graphics/gameplay was Metroid Prime or Ninja Gaiden.

 

[P90]

Thats my point! Their market is in shambles because they are not willing to risk putting in the money, but would rather get by with DS/Wii/PS2 titles.

With the install bases of the DS, Wii, and PS2 that sounds like a very sound market not in shambles. The worldwide market, especially Japan, is saying that HD gaming is not "all that".

 

[icecream]

This thread got dumb fast. People who chastise Japanese devs for 'old' gameplay (seriously, wtf is that supposed to mean) in the same breath as mentioning them being behind the tech curve (which is really the only legitimate argument in this thread), with those on the other side defending anything Japanese-made to the death.

You forgot the people who love to overgeneralize Japan with their fun agendas.

 

[Dibbz]

The problem is that they were still clinging onto the PS2 for dear life, this is bad for both the Japanese devs who are planning to release games on the PS3 and Sony/PS3 in the long run.

You can't start your current gen development without some kind of commitment, there's really no easing into it because your PS2+ product will look like ass.

You can't have a console in Japan basically waiting for these Japanese developers to start releasing their games, everything is about forward momentum, right now current-gen hardware in Japan (not talking about the wii) have no forward momentum, and Japanese developers are waiting for the PS3 to build its userbase in Japan but WTF is the PS3 going to build its userbase on when Japanese developers are still sitting on the sidelines? Even Sony's own producers in Japan are probably trying to look after their own asses by greenlighting more PS2 games from third-party devs working on Sony IPs. Fucking Media Vision ftmfl.

It's like not willing to get on the field until the team starts winning and you have like 3 guys on the field trying hard to win and they can't because you have fucking dudes sitting on the bench not wanting to come on. This is fucking problematic especially for people who have bought consoles expecting to have some fucking games to play rawr. Worst of all in the US you have EXACTLY this situation going on with Sony's own Santa Monica studio adopting this very fucking philosophy making God of War 2 for the PS2, what are third-party publishers supposed to think?

Look at SCEJ. They've made what, 2 games for the PS3? Folklore and Genji 2? How can the userbase grow and expand if they don't make games for the consoles. SCEE and SCEA have been carrying the console.

The 360 isn't even acknowledged over there so all the devs turn to the Wii/PS2 and DS.

 

[icecream]

Look at SCEJ. They've made what, 2 games for the PS3? Folklore and Genji 2? How can the userbase grow and expand if they don't make games for the consoles. SCEE and SCEA have been carrying the console.

Those two titles are developed by Game Republic.

The 360 isn't even acknowledged over there so all the devs turn to the Wii/PS2 and DS.

The large companies perhaps, but the 360 is still a draw for the smaller third-party companies.

 

[Dibbz]

With the install bases of the DS, Wii, and PS2 that sounds like a very sound market not in shambles. The worldwide market, especially Japan, is saying that HD gaming is not "all that".

Your actually saying that the fact devs are still making PS2 games is good for the market? :lol

I bet you thought that devs should have continued to make games on the PS1 instead of the PS2 right? You know because of the install base an all. :/

 

[Danj]

Japanese devs don't even make PC games!

All the Japanese PC devs are probably busy churning out low budget visual novels and doujin fighting games.

 

[lordmrw]

At the very least we haven't gotten to 'Wii/DS are ruining gaming' full-on yet, but we're heading that direction.

Because plain and simple, they're not. For the developers that treat the systems they way they should be, i.e. market leading platforms with a large install base, and take the time to dedicate teams to making worthwhile games for them, they make large profits from them. But the ones that try to do nothing but piece of shit budget cash-ins, yeah, they're in trouble, and rightfully so.