FieryBalrog
Member
A Black Falcon said:
Spot on, cookie.
A Black Falcon said:Oh yeah, and Starcraft is better. Always has been, always will be.
Geez. Make that chocolate chip.
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Akira Yamaoka: "Japan is in trouble."
- Thread starter Zombie James
- Start date
Spot on, cookie.
Geez. Make that chocolate chip.
A Black Falcon
Member
HK-47 said:
My point was that the post that was quoted in the post you quoted referred to 1995, not 1998.
AndersTheSwede
Member
A Black Falcon said:
Now we're getting somewhere. Though I respectfully disagree that they are regressing.
This debate of east v. west is meaningless. The real change in the industry has been the rise of the PC developer.
Next-gen gaming isn't about HD or crazy shaders or any of that shit. Its the console turning into a PC with a game pad.
It's no coincidence that the most prolific developers recently have all been historically PC developers (Bungie, Epic, Valve, 2K Boston, R*)
Thats the real shift. Not east to west. But PC conventions onto consoles. And japan, as a console-centered development area, has been slow to adapt.
AndersTheSwede
Member
Dibbz said:
More successful in terms of units shipped, sure. Because consoles have always dominated the mass market.
But the underlying technologies and game mechanics of most games (there are of course a few exceptions) on the new consoles were trailblazed by PC developers a decade ago.
This has positioned developers who specialized in the PC with a big leg up if they want to transition to the console market (which many have done given how pirating has decimated that platform).
Even in Japan, the developers who are having the most success on the new consoles are those who have extensive PC experience (eg. Capcom).
Japanese developers are struggling not because they are Japanese and are somehow tied to the "glory days" but because they don't have the decades of experience in building these types of engine-driven games.
That combined with the Japanese consumer moving to handhelds which is cutting the funds they have to develop their own technology has really hurt many traditional Japanese developers.
A Black Falcon
Member
Subarushian said:
Maybe there has not been a drop in overall quality, but in complexity and depth? Given that PC games are almost always more complex than console ones, I don't think there's any question that it has happened. **** Ex 1 vs. 2, System Shock 1 or 2 vs. BioShock, Baldur's Gate I or II (or even NWN 1) versus KotOR, Jade Empire, or Mass Effect, Torment or IWD2 or NWN2 versus KotOR 2... even Arena/Daggerfall versus Morrowind/Oblivion would be a reasonable one, I'd say.
I would admit that FPSes have been less affected, outside of console ones not having modding (a huge loss, really), though... Orange Box in particular didn't suffer because that was still clearly PC-first. Epic's done decently on consoles too, keeping up similar levels of quality and complexity of game design, though UE3 seems to be getting a somewhat mixed reception. It's hard to say with Bungie. How would Halo have ended up as a PC/Mac-first game? Was the eventual console version scaled back from those early computer version plans, and would less of that have happened if it'd stayed on computers? I don't know...
and also including these (plenty more could be listed, but I'd expect the ratio to stay similar...)Dibbz said:
Halo 3
TES IV: Oblivion
Mass Effect
Metroid Prime 3
Dibbz said:
The bolded titles are games from studios that were PC-only until the late '90s or early 2000s or are from franchises that were the same.
Crysis, of course, IS actually PC only. This is probably because the studio is European and the PC game market is stronger there than it is here, and particularly in Germany where they are based. Anyway, of the 16 games on that list, 9 are from recently PC-exclusive studios. I think that that's a pretty strong statement in favor of what I'm saying. And that's only recent titles, not last-gen too!
PataHikari
Banned
This thread is like a train wreck.
That a plane then crashed into.
That a plane then crashed into.
PataHikari
Banned
Dibbz said:
OK.
What is wrong with a 2D RPG, or even a 2D game period?
xs_mini_neo
Banned
Subarushian said:
Ugh. I don't think I can stomach another drastic change to my favorite hobby anymore.
First Sony, then 3D, then Sega dying, then Nintendo on life support for a while, and now Microsoft and PCs merging with consoles. It's just too much. I just want to play games, not get dragged into yet more system/hardware/graphics/west vs. east/corporate viral wars. Sure I could ignore that stuff, but not the games that show up as a result of all that nonsense.
I dunno if anyone has clarified, but let me try and sort out what he meant by his comment.
It's no secret that as a whole, Japanese Next Gen (including Wii) development has been a big game of catch up. Aside from some super premiere studios 3rd and 1st, Japanese next-gen titles have been pretty much lackluster in terms of taking advantage of the abilities of the next gen systems. The only 3rd party to even get off the starting block right now is Capcom. And they are doing it right on the DS, Wii, PS3 AND 360.
Japanese companies are scrambling to figure out what they are going to do to catch up to the west in terms of making games with equivalent features, and that's why they are in trouble. They are behind the curve.
Let's take a look at the major 3rd party Japanese publishers and see what big titles they have released.
Namco - Ace Combat - Visually pretty good, still a very niche title. Idol Master - Great cell shading, but only appeals to hardcore otaku. Katamari Damacy - Katamari Damacy remake number 3. Soul Calibur Legends is a pile of garbage.
Not a bad resume, if you are hardcore into flight action games and girl group "pet" sims. Still, none of these games are anywhere near the production of something like Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, and so on.
Konami - Uhhh, 2 lackluster Winning Eleven titles. They have Metal Gear Solid coming up and thank god that game is one of the biggest titles coming out of Japan. For Wii, there were the creative yet totally boring Dewey and Elebits.
Pretty bad.
Capcom - I don't really need to say much, Capcom is embarassing the rest of the Japanese 3rd parties by releasing some of the most memorable games of the generation.
Sega - They embraced western development, but still are releasing some poor titles. Condemned was liked by fans, but Full Auto was garbage day. They have Ryu ga Kotoku Kenzan coming up next year and it looks great.
Square - The only new game they have released for next gen is a fucking Chocobo Dungeon game. (Which apparently is pretty cool.)
1st parties - Sony's Japanese first parties haven't done much of anything aside from some Gran Turismo demos. I find it weird they weren't ready for launch.
Nintendo's first party offerings so far have been mostly great. The one blemish being Super Paper Mario.
Microsoft Game studios Japan -- Two games, both with lot's of technical problems. Old school gameplay.
The rest of the companies either are still making their first next-gen game or have just released one shit title. I left out some titles from the majors cause they suck.
Anyway, Yamaoka is right. Japan is fucking behind the curve. The whole industry here needs a reboot, bad. The way they do business is going to kill them.
It's no secret that as a whole, Japanese Next Gen (including Wii) development has been a big game of catch up. Aside from some super premiere studios 3rd and 1st, Japanese next-gen titles have been pretty much lackluster in terms of taking advantage of the abilities of the next gen systems. The only 3rd party to even get off the starting block right now is Capcom. And they are doing it right on the DS, Wii, PS3 AND 360.
Japanese companies are scrambling to figure out what they are going to do to catch up to the west in terms of making games with equivalent features, and that's why they are in trouble. They are behind the curve.
Let's take a look at the major 3rd party Japanese publishers and see what big titles they have released.
Namco - Ace Combat - Visually pretty good, still a very niche title. Idol Master - Great cell shading, but only appeals to hardcore otaku. Katamari Damacy - Katamari Damacy remake number 3. Soul Calibur Legends is a pile of garbage.
Not a bad resume, if you are hardcore into flight action games and girl group "pet" sims. Still, none of these games are anywhere near the production of something like Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, and so on.
Konami - Uhhh, 2 lackluster Winning Eleven titles. They have Metal Gear Solid coming up and thank god that game is one of the biggest titles coming out of Japan. For Wii, there were the creative yet totally boring Dewey and Elebits.
Pretty bad.
Capcom - I don't really need to say much, Capcom is embarassing the rest of the Japanese 3rd parties by releasing some of the most memorable games of the generation.
Sega - They embraced western development, but still are releasing some poor titles. Condemned was liked by fans, but Full Auto was garbage day. They have Ryu ga Kotoku Kenzan coming up next year and it looks great.
Square - The only new game they have released for next gen is a fucking Chocobo Dungeon game. (Which apparently is pretty cool.)
1st parties - Sony's Japanese first parties haven't done much of anything aside from some Gran Turismo demos. I find it weird they weren't ready for launch.
Nintendo's first party offerings so far have been mostly great. The one blemish being Super Paper Mario.
Microsoft Game studios Japan -- Two games, both with lot's of technical problems. Old school gameplay.
The rest of the companies either are still making their first next-gen game or have just released one shit title. I left out some titles from the majors cause they suck.
Anyway, Yamaoka is right. Japan is fucking behind the curve. The whole industry here needs a reboot, bad. The way they do business is going to kill them.
I think it's more like the PC market being big enough in the west to nurture a solid evolution in graphics hardware. This hasn't happened in Japan, and a lot of the schools probably aren't teaching the same skills that are taught in the west, since the hardware is behind. Most devs in Japanese companies just didn't know about shaders - they're catching up now, at places like Namco and Capcom. In the west however, even the devs that major in console games, like Ubi, Criterion, Rare, have the same skills as PC-focused houses.Subarushian said:
AndersTheSwede
Member
Anth said:Or the decline, if you are a PC gamer. Without the Xbox, we would probably have Baldur's Gate 3 or something of the sort instead of Jade Empire, and System Shock 3 instead of Bioshock.
No, you would have had nothing, since the PC platform is no longer financially viable. The xbox actually saved PC gaming if you will. Albeit in a modified form.
Jonnyram said:
You are correct. The PC developers and the graphics industry naturally have progressed hand-in-hand.
PataHikari
Banned
Who cares about shaders as long as the game is fun to play?
I'll admit, this whole generation for Japan so far has been a big mess. Most companies are probably very confused about the whole thing. But hardware strength, or "the tech curve" has little to do with, you know, actual fun.
I'll admit, this whole generation for Japan so far has been a big mess. Most companies are probably very confused about the whole thing. But hardware strength, or "the tech curve" has little to do with, you know, actual fun.
A Black Falcon
Member
HK-47 said:
Want to make a complete list of just major current-gen Western-developed console titles, then? It'd be interesting to see the exact ratio of this... that's definitely an incomplete list.
And yeah, Crysis should probably be left off for not being a console game. It's worth mentioning with stuff like Starcraft II -- games that are from studios that actually stuck with the PC.
Anth said:Or the decline, if you are a PC gamer. Without the Xbox, we would probably have Baldur's Gate 3 or something of the sort instead of Jade Empire, and System Shock 3 instead of Bioshock.
Way to make things even more depressing than they already are...
(You're probably right, though.)Hcoregamer00 what ethnicity are you
look at all the anime fans racing to defend their precious japan :lol i love lots of things from japan, food, their art industry (believe me, they have some amazing stuff there, i got a book for of some of their recent works.. one of them was a head made entirely of cottage cheese that was left out to rot, super cool) but there is just as much shit there as there is here. the reason it doesnt seem that way is because we dont bother localizing the really bad japanese stuff
and besides look at all those terrible anime games. i got that horrible, terrible, piece of shit bleach game for the gamecube by SEGA, and oh god. i ebayed that shit the next day
and if japan is falling behind, its about time! how am i going to make my money in the industry if the games i work on are going to have a reputation of being not as good as japanese ones
look at all the anime fans racing to defend their precious japan :lol i love lots of things from japan, food, their art industry (believe me, they have some amazing stuff there, i got a book for of some of their recent works.. one of them was a head made entirely of cottage cheese that was left out to rot, super cool) but there is just as much shit there as there is here. the reason it doesnt seem that way is because we dont bother localizing the really bad japanese stuff
and besides look at all those terrible anime games. i got that horrible, terrible, piece of shit bleach game for the gamecube by SEGA, and oh god. i ebayed that shit the next day
and if japan is falling behind, its about time! how am i going to make my money in the industry if the games i work on are going to have a reputation of being not as good as japanese ones
A Black Falcon said:Want to make a complete list of just major current-gen Western-developed console titles, then? It'd be interesting to see the exact ratio of this... that's definitely an incomplete list.
And yeah, Crysis should probably be left off for not being a console game. It's worth mentioning with stuff like Starcraft II -- games that are from studios that actually stuck with the PC.
Way to make things even more depressing than they already are...
Well hasnt Crytek been PC exclusive too...they didnt do the console port of Far Cry
Also remember the big western system, 360, has been out on the market a year longer. Only Capcom took advantage of it but its still notable
Maybe, just maybe, you're missing the point of Yamaoka's quote? Gameplay is the most fundamental aspect of games, yes, but since a lot of game development in the last decade has been about striving to make things look better, it would be strange if they just stopped now and said "right, PS2 graphics are as good as we need, let's just focus on gameplay". If they stopped developing graphics engines, a lot of programmers would be out of jobs.PataHikari said:
PataHikari
Banned
Jonnyram said:
I wasn't really talking about Yamaoka's quote. I'm talking about most of the idiots here who seem to think that a good game can't be made unless it's on bleeding edge hardware.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
You showed that strawman who's boss.Dibbz said:
Bungie, as part of Microsoft, obviously had a reason to push the X360. But Infinity Ward/Activision? To them a software sale is a software sale. Why should they or other independent publishers be expected to go out of their way to help another company build a userbase?
Obviously there is money to be made there. But providing to and benefitting from that 15 million userbase doesn't necessitate ditching everything else so you can place all your eggs in an HD basket.Dibbz said:
PataHikari
Banned
And to all you people complaining about anime games:
Etc.
Crappy licensed games aren't unique to Japan.
Etc.
Crappy licensed games aren't unique to Japan.
bullshit. If PC gaming was "no longer financially viable," we would've stopped getting PC games in 2001. It still has a ton of high profile games that the console market in general, and GAF in particular, turns a total blind eye to because they're not on consoles.Subarushian said:
You mean BD/LO right?
BD: came out 2006 and it was Artoon first next gen engine, not bad if you ask me, especially considering framerate/tearing is still present in recent games and from bigger companies too.
LO: UE3, that pretty much sums it up, also Feel Plus first next gen game.
and old school game is not a bad point.
developed by Monolith Productions, Sega is the publisher.
dunno if this will change something though.
Im really looking forward to see what tri-Ace does with IU, the stuff they mentioned couldnt really be done with last gen tech. here's hoping for this gen first truly JRPG experience that takes advantage of the current gen hw both in visuals and gameplay.
in tri-Ace I trust.
in tri-Ace I trust.
Doc Evils said:
Yeah it looks great but it's just now getting an online installment and I don't follow the game but car damage is unlikely because of car companies. It's a feature complete and very robust game but most Japanese games aren't. We're generations ahead of them as far as online goes and it is largely a technology vs. artistry issue. All games used to get their own engines too, I'm sure that practice has been curbed but too little too late. The West especially bleeding edge PC devs have outpaced Japan for years, it's just now we're seeing their games on consoles because of waning PC game sales compared to growing console game sales.
The sharing of tech has helped western devs in the tech/graphical department, but it also leads to copy and paste game design for some reason. There are gems like a Grim Fandango, but generally western games tend to run together. I am already sick of the Unreal engine look and this gen has really just barely started.
Japan has this issue at times as well, when a certain character type gets popular it creates a trend that others mimic. Still, I find more adventurous stuff from Japan even in its weakened state.
Also, western is sort of split. Europe puts out some flavorful things, with French studios coming to mind. A guy like Ancel has his own style that isn't whored around. American devs are really copy & paste, and I'm not sure if that is because of publishers or the culture.
But my biggest issue is that tech is redundant. Repainting instead of rethinking. I have been hoping for a tech limit so that devs HAVE to start thinking in new ways. Currently graphics are there to wow you, but do so aside from the rest of the game. In other medias, the elements of that media are used to further convey the theme(s) of the piece. Games need to start doing that more often.
So in regards to the original statement in the thread, western tech is ahead, likely thanks to PC, but the visuals here age so fast that tech has to keep going up. There is a disconnect between visual design and visual ability. In the east, there is in ways more a connection, but sometimes the visuals still look cheapened. Even though PC games look nicer, it is hard for me to indulge in their visuals because I know they will just be replaced by a shinier and similar looking game.
Japan has this issue at times as well, when a certain character type gets popular it creates a trend that others mimic. Still, I find more adventurous stuff from Japan even in its weakened state.
Also, western is sort of split. Europe puts out some flavorful things, with French studios coming to mind. A guy like Ancel has his own style that isn't whored around. American devs are really copy & paste, and I'm not sure if that is because of publishers or the culture.
But my biggest issue is that tech is redundant. Repainting instead of rethinking. I have been hoping for a tech limit so that devs HAVE to start thinking in new ways. Currently graphics are there to wow you, but do so aside from the rest of the game. In other medias, the elements of that media are used to further convey the theme(s) of the piece. Games need to start doing that more often.
So in regards to the original statement in the thread, western tech is ahead, likely thanks to PC, but the visuals here age so fast that tech has to keep going up. There is a disconnect between visual design and visual ability. In the east, there is in ways more a connection, but sometimes the visuals still look cheapened. Even though PC games look nicer, it is hard for me to indulge in their visuals because I know they will just be replaced by a shinier and similar looking game.
Mefisutoferesu
Member
Not to bother, but what has tri-ace mentioned that couldn't be done in this generation?Error said:
tri-Ace is not owned by Square Enix, they are an independent development studio. SE just publishes their games.HK-47 said:
the whole "world is always moving" thing, also how changes in the environments can affect battles (in IU battles take place on the field seamlessly like FF12). they gave a few examples, like big ogres chasing you, tsunamis, dragons etc.. etc..
you gotta keep in mind that there are no battle transitions in IU, everything happens on the field.
the rpgamer interview with Ogawa and Kojima mentions that stuff btw.
edit: when I said last gen, I mean PS2 generation.
KittenMaster
Member
Quoted for truth.PataHikari said: