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[Toxi]

I talked about who won re-election despite their actions, and how this is a common theme. People aren't as self-reflective or morally sound as you think. Check yourself for that.

Then why are you talking about Clinton?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Then why did you bring up Clinton or Bush's paintings?

Just stop being coy and say what you really mean: "America is evil to the core, and you're all just arguing over which slightly different shade of malevolence to support."

Which is, in fact, a "both sides" argument, no matter how much you fervently deny it or make "console warz" references.

I'm saying voters are much more complex than the reductions every single one of you are trying to make about Trump voters. We will vote for pure trash even as we are eating it, because people and their candidates are not the single issue as defined by their opposition. We will overlook a lot.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

I talked about who won re-election despite their actions, and how this is a common theme. People aren't as self-reflective or morally sound as you think. Check yourself for that.

There certainly would have been ways to do that, but your examples were completely off.

It wasn't until after Bush's 2nd election that people really started to find out that he lied, and Clinton didn't win a second term after his sex scandal since he was already on it. How the two of them are treated now that they're not in office anymore has absolutely no relevance to how voters choose to cast their votes.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Trump voters being your family or friends doesn't make their decision any less terrible. They may not be bigots or idiots but they made an extremely stupid decision

 

[Valhelm]

We shouldn't generalize but with a party that has promoted racism and exclusivity, it's easy to label them into the following:

1. Rich people who dislike taxes
2. Christian or Catholic
3. Diet Racists
4. Racists

Find me a republican who doesn't fit any of those four categories.

This is right on the money. I'm sure most Trump voters don't think of themselves as racists, and there are probably lots who sincerely oppose outward displays of bigotry! But America is a white supremacist society, and support for candidates want to affirm this just reinforces the racial inequity upon which our country was built.

I don't believe we need to hate every Trump voter, but it is dangerous to let their actions go without criticism. It doesn't matter how sweet your great aunt happens to be; if she voted for Trump she is complicit in the ongoing oppression of poor minorities at home and abroad. What Trump opponents should do is respond to the legitimate worries Trump voters may have with solutions totally divorced from his white supremacist platform. Coddling racism and neglecting red districts both make white supremacy stronger.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I'm saying voters are much more complex than the reductions every single one of you are trying to make about Trump voters. We will vote for pure trash even as we are eating it, because people and their candidates are not single issue as defined by their opposition.

A reduction like "every single one of you?"

In my case, I've only called people stupid, not Nazis, although I'm pretty confident in Trump's popularity in the Nazi demographic.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

One of my favorite novels related to this subject of Nazism, personal reasons, and "good":

Bernhard Schlink's "The Reader"

It tells the story of Michael Berg, a German lawyer who, as a mid-teenager in 1958, had an affair with an older woman, Hanna Schmitz, who then disappeared only to resurface years later as one of the defendants in a war crimes trial stemming from her actions as a guard at a Nazi concentration camp. Michael realizes that Hanna is keeping a personal secret she believes is worse than her Nazi past – a secret which, if revealed, could help her at the trial.

 

[The Maverick]

This isn't really a case of "absolving". I'm not saying people like my grandmother deserve a full pardon for their mistakes, unless they acknowledged them.

If she were to one day say that she understood that she made the wrong decision and regrets what she did? Fair enough, in my opinion.

If she still stands by it, and assuming that it's entirely out of ignorance and not because of any personal biases she may have on other people, what am I to do then? Lynch her? Never speak to her again? Wish that she burn in hell?

Would you go that far towards people you loved? Once again, I'm presenting this question towards the people who are not, on the surface, objectionably terrible pieces of shit. I'm talking about your best buddy or significant other or the guy who donated a kidney to save your life, the people who have always been there for you and have not done a single abhorrent thing to another individual.

Would you easily cut your ties with them just for one fuck-up of who they voted for?

The world is going to continue to be a bad place because there are many people like you, who refuse to challenge and call out those close to them when they are wrong. Because you love them, you see them as being above reproach and refuse to consider that they may actually be capable of negative beliefs. This is a false love.

Voting for Trump means you accepted his racism, xenophobia, etc. Period. Doesn't matter if it's because you want your old job back or for the tax breaks. Or even because of "ignorance". Not calling people out for exactly this is part of why there's no progress.

Ironically enough, you take greater umbrage with the fact that we're calling these people out than the bad decisions they've made that has earned them the label. As MLK said, the enemy is not evil itself but those who idly stand by, complaining as the efforts towards progress are made.

 

[Lord Frieza]

I'm saying voters are much more complex than the reductions every single one of you are trying to make about Trump voters. We will vote for pure trash even as we are eating it, because people and their candidates are not the single issue as defined by their opposition. We will overlook a lot.

Well, I mean...uh, duh?

Obviously there's hyperbole through the thread, but the majority of people here, as stated before, have said they aren't literal Nazis, but him running on a platform of pretty much pure racism and lies makes them complacent, at the very least, to it. I mean, your argument about how we all do this is interesting, but it really means fuck all in the context of what is being talking about outside to illustrate how both sides do the same kind of stuff. I mean, honestly, bringing up Obama, Clinton, Bush, FDR, or any other President doesn't matter anyway. You can trace back heinous shit to all kinds of President. This isn't some secret, you aren't dropping some sacred knowledge on us young folk. But we're talking about Trump, and the people who voted for him.

EDIT: Well, he got banned. I wonder if it was for this.

 

[newdayrocks]

Anyone and everyone who voted for Trump is absolutely an awful person. There's no middle ground.

 

[Got]

One of my favorite novels related to this subject of Nazism, personal reasons, and "good":

Bernhard Schlink's "The Reader"

looks like you got some time to read it again

 

[Heroman]

All Trump aren't Nazis, most of them are white Americans who for the most part have rasict and Nationals ideas

 

[The Technomancer]

They're not all nazis, but they're quite comfortable and even enthusiastic with a lot of white nationalism, even if they don't think in those concrete terms.

 

[SkeptiMism]

I think it's very easy to argue that voting for Trump was an evil act. Sure, in some cases you can argue that the voter was very ignorant or that they had other (but insufficient) reasons for voting for Trump such that they did so while lamenting a lot of what he stood for, but surely people have a responsibility to vote, well, responsibly. That you cast an evil vote accidentally is not much of an excuse.

But of course many Trump voters are basically good people, to the extent that there are good people in America. A single vote is really a pretty small act. I think the error people make is not in identifying the vote for Trump as an evil thing but in talking like voting for and supporting Trump are defining character traits. This kind of thing, basically:

I got family who voted trump. While I don't call them Nazi scum I will call them ignorant trash at best. I'll say the same for about any trump supporter.

People have this tendency to mistake moral obviousness for moral significance. There was obviously no good reason to vote for Trump -> only a bad person could have voted for Trump. But I'm sure that many Trump voters have had a much more positive impact on the world than have many Clinton voters, or otherwise win out however you want to measure how good of a person someone is (short of very implausible gerrymandered definitions). I'm sure that for almost everyone you can find a thing that they've done for obviously bad reasons that has produced at least as much harm as a single vote for Trump. It is weird to pick them out as a group and talk as if their vote makes it very likely that they are worse people than anyone else.

This is a great post and I think it needs more attention.

Though maybe instead of NoblesseOblige's post (that Gotchaye quoted) this post would be a better fit to help making the argument:

I think a lot of people in this topic are dancing around the inevitable conclusion that as a minority I reached years ago. It's a hard conclusion, but it is true:

1. Evil is a real thing
2. A significant percentage, if not close to half, of Americans are evil people.
3. You can negotiate with some evil people, but with many you can not.

It's hard to accept but it it is the truth.

----------------------------------------

Ironically enough, you take greater umbrage with the fact that we're calling these people out than the bad decisions they've made that has earned them the label. As MLK said, the enemy is not evil itself but those who idly stand by, complaining as the efforts towards progress are made.

Let's not do this. You absolutely don't know how much he takes umbrage with it. The person creating a thread about this doesn't mean he considers their decision less bad than people calling them out for it.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

I think it's great that we constantly get to have discussions about how Trump voters (and Trump himself, according to some people) get to have it both ways. Really special group of people there.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Trump literally ran on a platform of racism, xenophobia, and straight up lies and people are stil bringing up Obama and Clinton looking for some kind of gotcha

Nigga we can read

 

[Siegcram]

This isn't really a case of "absolving". I'm not saying people like my grandmother deserve a full pardon for their mistakes, unless they acknowledged them.

If she were to one day say that she understood that she made the wrong decision and regrets what she did? Fair enough, in my opinion.

If she still stands by it, and assuming that it's entirely out of ignorance and not because of any personal biases she may have on other people, what am I to do then? Lynch her? Never speak to her again? Wish that she burn in hell?

Would you go that far towards people you loved? Once again, I'm presenting this question towards the people who are not, on the surface, objectionably terrible pieces of shit. I'm talking about your best buddy or significant other or the guy who donated a kidney to save your life, the people who have always been there for you and have not done a single abhorrent thing to another individual.

Would you easily cut your ties with them just for one fuck-up of who they voted for?

I don't really care what you do. Going by your OP you don't really grasp the gravity of the situation yourself, so I'm not expecting you to change the political opinion of an octogenarian.

Personally, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with someone who casts their personal vote towards an unqualified sexual predator who appeals to the collective lizard brain.

Voting for Trump out of whatever reason means you consider a substantial part of the population to be beneath you. It is a far bigger indicator of your moral capacity than interactions with family members.

 

[8byte]

Silence is certainly an endorsement.

If you aligned with him for whatever reason, you were and are supportive of his stances.

So yea, by association if you voted for him, you're the lowest bar of American there possibly is.

 

[hey_monkey]

The don't be reductive is exactly the point here, by saying that these people are all xenophobic, racists, misogynists and so on, or that they are acceptance of it is to be reductive of their views, there is a plethora of reasons to vote for someone, even if I don't agree with any of them.
I would also be quite surprised if there weren't xenophobes, racists, misogynists and homophones voting for Hillary, but those people probably decided there were more important things so they voted for Hillary based on those things they deemed more important.

Also not sure if every one of his major campaign platform points were linked to what you are saying, certainly not for a lot of people that voted, I mean sure trump might "want" to bring jobs back from china because he is a xenophobe and honestly a complete idiot (the jobs outsourced to china tend to be pretty awful low paid work), but doubt "fuck the Chinese" was what people were hearing when Trump talked about that.

Of course there were racists, etc. voting for Hillary. Americans come up in a fucked up culture; xenophobia, bigotry, sexism is all part of the environment we're raised in. No matter how progressive we (think we) are, usually some of that lingers, maybe at the fore, maybe in the background, but it's rampant in gentrification, in the way we handle schools and medical care, in foreign relations, etc., etc., etc.

And I'm not saying that the link between each of Trump's platform points and some major problem was apparent to most - it's not. Lower taxes?! That sounds great! I want to pay less in taxes. Don't we all? Except if you dig any further than "yay, more money in my paycheck," and actually look at how taxes and the government operate, lower taxes results in fewer public services, and who gets harmed there? (In this case, many of the people who voted for Trump themselves, even.)

Here's a list of major platform points. Some we can write off as obviously racist or xenophobic, like the wall, like banning Muslims, like taking oil. Repealing Obamacare rather than trying to fix (or even expand) is deeply, obviously troubling; people finally began to realize that, too, so we can probably ignore that one. The trade partnerships and tariff points are where it starts to get tricky. Manufacturing jobs, too. But all of that is grounded in the baseless assumption that America is better just because and we deserve things just because. That's palatable without voters having to think deeply about it because of xenophobia, when in reality, imposing some of the proposed tariffs on, say, Mexican imports? Would drive food costs through the roof, not to mention impact many other things.

Possibly the only one of these that is free of underlying links to the problems we're talking about is leaving Social Security alone, but the GOP won't care and it was just a gambit anyway. Oh, sure, you could also argue that about bringing manufacturing jobs back, but there's really no way to do that without actually causing hurt - either through lowering wages or raising prices. I mean, it could be done if execs would take pay cuts, but this is America, breh - we have a god-given right to fuck everyone else over to make that extra million.

 

[Jackpot]

Did supporting Obama mean you implicitly supported every single one of his viewpoints and actions?

Plenty of liberals didn't like what Obama did with drones, for example, but they voted for him anyway because he was much better than the opposition on most other issues.

Not every Trump voter is racist, or even okay with racism. You guys have got to get this through your heads or you'll just continue doing your own understanding of the situation a disservice.

I know plenty of rich people who are not at all racist, hate what Trump says and does on immigration and racial issues, but made the decision to vote for him because they wanted to kill the estate tax, or other economic issues. And they didn't believe Trump would follow through on what he said he was going to.

That makes them idiots, yes, but they aren't all racist.

Trump's actions aren't an unforeseen consequence, such as voting Labour and having Blair invade Iraq. These are the defining policies of Trump's candidacy. It's like if you vote Le Pen because you like her policies on property tax and then complained about being labelled racist.

 

[zelas]

All aren't racists.

All just don't think civil rights are that important.

 

[Lord Frieza]

People have this tendency to mistake moral obviousness for moral significance. There was obviously no good reason to vote for Trump -> only a bad person could have voted for Trump. But I'm sure that many Trump voters have had a much more positive impact on the world than have many Clinton voters, or otherwise win out however you want to measure how good of a person someone is (short of very implausible gerrymandered definitions). I'm sure that for almost everyone you can find a thing that they've done for obviously bad reasons that has produced at least as much harm as a single vote for Trump. It is weird to pick them out as a group and talk as if their vote makes it very likely that they are worse people than anyone else.

This is a nice thought to absolve Trump supporters, but doing nice things doesn't invalidate the bad things you do. When you vote, you are participating in something that affects hundreds of millions of people, it is, for the vast majority, the thing they will do that will have the most effect.

And you know, think about this: Pat Robertson has a charity that goes to feed the needy. He has also be a key opponent of LGBTQ right and the radicalization of the right into near brain-washing level. He helps some hungry kids with his charity, which is good, but he's still a vile, hateful piece of shit that the world, by and large, would be better of with if he just dropped dead.

 

[Brandon F]

Mm it's missing idiots and 'both sides are the same anyways' people.

Both of those qualify into those four categories still. The idiots are misinformed and naive, but they still choose to brashly vote based on one of those platforms(usually racist as it fits the mold). The 'both sides' people are merely deflecting to not implicate themselves publicly for their innate racism, greed, or intolerance.

 

[BajiBoxer]

They're not formally nazis, but are willful allies to Nazis and/or other white supremicist groups, and various equally awful hate groups. That said, I'm more concerned with younger Trump voters than an 80 year old racist granny.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Not all are nazi some are just fascist.

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

You know that Catholics are Christian, right

My bad. Its Protestants and Catholics right? From mine understanding in the US, Christians like to categorized themselves as Christians and not Catholics.

 

[The Maverick]

*puts on condescending hat* Stuff like this is exactly why the election was lost. Instead of calling people names, why not educate them. Oh, and don't ask me to do it because I privately know that it doesn't work. By the way, both sides. *takes off hat*

 

[Toxi]

One of my favorite novels related to this subject of Nazism, personal reasons, and "good":

Bernhard Schlink's "The Reader"

The defendant was on trial for allowing 300 Jewish women to burn to death. Her big secret? She was illiterate.

 

[TI82]

Just because they voted for him and you like them doesn't mean you can give them a pass. Sure they are still your loved ones but they are either selfish or ignorant and what they did actively harmed our country for the next 4 years.

Just be thankful the courts are doing their due diligence to stop the great cheeto in chief.

*puts on condescending hat* Stuff like this is exactly why the election was lost. Instead of calling people names, why not educate them. Oh, and don't ask me to do it because I privately know that it doesn't work. By the way, both sides. *takes off hat*

I think the biggest reason we lost is that a lot of younger voters fell for Russian influence and turned to Trump or third parties. Gary Johnson in particular pulled a lot of the young Bernie voters that Hillary didn't get and could have turned this election around.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Just because most people who voted for Trump are not overtly racist, does not mean most are not closet or "diet" racist. Most certainly are and the survey statistics seem to indicate this post election. There actually was a thread on this. And yes that group of closet/"diet" racists certainly includes a lot of people's "nice old grandmas".

 

[Valhelm]

Silence is certainly an endorsement.

If you aligned with him for whatever reason, you were and are supportive of his stances.

So yea, by association if you voted for him, you're the lowest bar of American there possibly is.

Plenty of Trump voters disagree with his stances, but weren't empathetic or educated enough for this to sway their vote.

It's important for Trump voters to understand that even if they may not personally hate Mexicans and Muslims, they have elected somebody who does. Plenty of color-blind people contribute to white supremacy every day, either by voting for candidates who want to hurt minorities or by smaller actions like complaining to mall security about a group of black kids hanging around.

 

[wildfire]

This forum has serious problems if Lui Kang can get a ban. I don't expect moderators to know every forum members MO but if you can read what Lui Kang wrote and say yep he needs to be banned well you shouldn't be moderator.

He didn't say anything that was worse than what the OP is putting forward. He actually adds to the OP points to carry the discussion forward.


Really if the mods want to protect me from Lui Kang hurting my feelings then banning Lui Kang but not the OP is a hypocritical over-reactionary joke.

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

*puts on condescending hat* Stuff like this is exactly why the election was lost. Instead of calling people names, why not educate them. Oh, and don't ask me to do it because I privately know that it doesn't work. By the way, both sides. *takes off hat*

We can educate the voters who are willingly to listen. But are they willing to challenge their beliefs when thinking of why it was wrong to vote for Trump in the first place. If yes, then we can educate them. If they resist violently or refuse to discuss it, then we must call them out and tell them they are not welcome in American Democracy just like they exclude every other opposing views or party.

 

[Got]

This forum has serious problems if Lui Kang can get a ban. I don't expect moderators to know every forum members MO but if you can read what Lui Kang wrote and say yep he needs to be banned well you shouldn't be moderator.

He didn't say anything that was worse than what the OP is putting forward. He actually adds to the OP points to carry the discussion forward.


Really if the mods want to protect me from Lui Kang hurting my feelings then banning Lui Kang but not the OP is a hypocritical over-reactionary joke.

pm them your issues, no one cares in this thread

 

[ClosingADoor]

I think the biggest reason we lost is that a lot of younger voters fell for Russian influence and turned to Trump or third parties. Gary Johnson in particular pulled a lot of the young Bernie voters that Hillary didn't get and could have turned this election around.

The biggest problem the US has is that literally half the country doesn't show up to vote, and even less in other elections. Compare this to the turnout in let's say France and Holland recently (70-80%). It's baffling that literally half of Americans don't care who their President is. I get some of the blame is on the electoral college here, but still.

 

[Quixzlizx]

This forum has serious problems if Lui Kang can get a ban. I don't expect moderators to know every forum members MO but if you can read what Lui Kang wrote and say yep he needs to be banned well you shouldn't be moderator.

He didn't say anything that was worse than what the OP is putting forward. He actually adds to the OP points to carry the discussion forward.


Really if the mods want to protect me from Lui Kang hurting my feelings then banning Lui Kang but not the OP is a hypocritical over-reactionary joke.

My problem with him wasn't that he was being contrarian, but that he was doing such a poor job of it.

I'm not a mod, though.

 

[TI82]

The biggest problem the US has is that literally half the country doesn't show up to vote, and even less in other elections. Compare this to the turnout in let's say France and Holland recently (70-80%). It's baffling that literally half of Americans don't care who their President is. I get some of the blame is on the electoral college here, but still.

Also an issue, if we had mobile voting platforms or even some sort of voting from your smart phone it would be simply the best. But poor people are forced out when it comes to voting as they have less ability to get to the polling places on time.

 

[Enzom21]

It doesn't have to be the exact same thing to be a point worth considering. It is obviously not the same thing.

But you're making the same argument, that nobody could possibly have voted for Trump without being okay with every single thing he said. It's so fucking shortsighted to say that.

Some of you need to actually talk to some center-right Trump voters or previous Obama voters and actually listen to why they voted for him. You'll learn something.

I fucking hate Trump, but you're deluding yourselves by turning this into a "45% of the country are Nazis!" situation in your minds. It is so obviously not true that it boggles the mind that you could even believe that. And you will lose again if you continue to think about it that way.

45% of the country did not vote for Trump. Trump got something like 27% of the country to vote for his racism and bigotry. Most voters stayed the fuck home.

Regardless of their reasons for voting for Trump, all Trump voters are garbage.
We don't need them for future elections, they can be pushed aside and ignored.
We need the people who didn't show up.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Also an issue, if we had mobile voting platforms or even some sort of voting from your smart phone it would be simply the best. But poor people are forced out when it comes to voting as they have less ability to get to the polling places on time.

Or mail-in ballots.

 

[Got]

45% of the country did not vote for Trump. Trump got something like 27% of the country to vote for his racism and bigotry. Most voters stayed the fuck home.

Regardless of their reasons for voting for Trump, all Trump voters are garbage.
We don't need them for future elections, they can be pushed aside and ignored.
We need the people who didn't show up.

this x1000

 

[Iksenpets]

I totally get where you're coming from, OP. My grandma also chose to vote to enable a racist to run the country because she decided that wasn't so bad as to be worth voting against her fucking tax cut, and I also get very offended when people point this out, because she is very nice to me, which should really excuse all of that, because I am very important.

 

[Got]

I totally get where you're coming from, OP. My grandma also chose to vote to enable a racist to run the country because she decided that wasn't so bad as to be worth voting against her fucking tax cut, and I also get very offended when people point this out, because she is very nice to me, which should really excuse all of that, because I am very important.

lol

 

[TI82]

Or mail-in ballots.

less inconvenient but still annoying compared to some sort of online voting. And sure I know there are issues with that too but it would be the peak of mass voter turnout.

 

[Nepenthe]

Making voting more convenient and easy would increase turnout greatly. Making it a holiday or putting it on the weekend, a federally-sanctioned and distributed ID that works for voting, more polling places, more open hours, more amenities for people stuck in lines, a decrese in gerrymandering, etc.

But we have one political party hellbent on depressing turnout.

You know, the one currently in power right now.

 

[Valhelm]

I think the biggest reason we lost is that a lot of younger voters fell for Russian influence and turned to Trump or third parties. Gary Johnson in particular pulled a lot of the young Bernie voters that Hillary didn't get and could have turned this election around.

Third parties did not make Trump president. However, the factors that pushed people to alternative candidates also kept many more from voting.

Hillary won fewer voters than Obama in 2012, despite benefiting from a larger electorate and a historically unpopular opponent.

Or mail-in ballots.

I see no reason for why every voter should not be mailed a ballot.

 

[Got]

Making voting more convenient and easy would increase turnout greatly. Making it a holiday or putting it on the weekend, a federally-sanctioned and distributed ID that works for voting, more polling places, more open hours, more amenities for people stuck in lines, a decrese in gerrymandering, etc.

But we have one political party hellbent on depressing turnout.

You know, the one currently in power right now.

yeah but Tammany Hall Democrats were garbage awhile back. #bothsides

 

[obijkenobi]

You know what keeps getting lost in these types of conversations? Even if I accept the premise of voting for Trump bc the GOP is that much better than the Democrats (I dont) the GOP still had like 17 candidates to choose from but picked Trump anyway

 

[Quixzlizx]

less inconvenient but still annoying compared to some sort of online voting. And sure I know there are issues with that too but it would be the peak of mass voter turnout.

Considering you brought up Russia earlier, I don't think I trust the government to make a Russia-proof online voting system.

 

[Nepenthe]

You know what keeps getting lost in these types of conversations? Even if I accept the premise of voting for Trump bc the GOP is that much better than the Democrats (I dont) the GOP still had like 17 candidates to choose from but picked Trump anyway

Indeed. In hindsight I would be fine with a Jeb presidency, if we needed to switch parties for whatever reason.

 

[Chuck Norris]

I believe a lot of voters are simply responsive to the platform of change after 8 years of a party in power. It's clear that their assumption is that because he is talking about change they think it's all related to them. It will help in their own little bubble. People are selfish and really only care about themselves