DontBeThatGuy
Member
If you lie down with dogs...
He is going to run the US like a business, stop outsourcing and invigorate the middle class. Is it really hard to see what message was spread to get millions of Americans to vote for him?
The responsibility seems so disproportionate, and ignorance isn't really an excuse for me because Black and Brown families live in poverty and if they can vote, they don't largely vote for someone like Trump. So why is that an excuse for white voters who are poor?
I am sorry, are trump voters like your grandma have their feelings hurt because their support for a nazi is called out.
I don't really care. Try being Mexican or Muslim in America right now. Then you know what it really means to have their feelings hurt.
I got family who voted trump. While I don't call them Nazi scum I will call them ignorant trash at best. I'll say the same for about any trump supporter.
There is no reason to think anyone ignorant or hateful enough to vote for Trump (and yes, those are the two options) is going to be won back or won over to the Democrat side. But it's a non-issue because all Democrats need is for their constituents to not stay home next time, and without the media-driven concern trolling about Clinton in the way (to say nothing of the inherent sexism that still colored the campaign in so many subtle and not-so-subtle ways), they probably won't.
I never suggested there were more than two options. I suggested there were two, just like you did. Most in this thread suggested there was just the one, and that was all I was arguing.
Trump voters are some mixture of idiots and racists. Some are one or the other, plenty are both. Not all are both.
Current Trump supporters should be literally culled from the earth.
Which isn't to say that I think voting for Trump is a good decision at all, he is in fact a racist, homophone, xenophobe, misogynist, and a straight up idiot, but voting for him doesn't equal liking all of that or even being ok with all that, its an insane false equivalence.
The dude is doing the bigoted racist actions he promised. THATS WHAT HIS CAMPAIGN WAS ALL ABOUT. You don't get to vote for someone saying exactly what they will do, still vote for them and wash your fucking hands off it. If you voted for Trump this was the fucking shit you approved.I want to be very clear about my position here:
People, now that they've seen what Trump is actually doing and saying, have no excuse for not criticizing it, and if they voted for him, owning up to their mistake.
That does not mean they are a Nazi or a racist simply for voting for him. It means they were naive and foolish to believe he wasn't going to do what he said. But lots of people were saying that on both sides, until he took power and started doing it all right away.
Someone who today, knowing what Trump is doing, still supports him? Call them whatever you like.
This is why the voters in Pennsylvania, etc., where he actually won the election, voted for him.
Were the news of the drone strikes really so hidden when they happened during his first term?And here's the clear difference. A good number of us did do our research and made peace with that decision because we don't vote in a bubble. We had to go out of our own way to derive the information that Obama intentionally hid during his re-election campaign.
Trump, again, explicitly campaigned on racism, sexism, anti-science, and bigotry. There's no getting around this, you cannot set up this equivalency without fallacy because the package was made clear and the fucker is going through with it, surprise surprise.
No disagreement there whatsoever.That vote didn't come about in a vacuum. It wasn't Obama vs someone that wouldn't drone strike and wanted to pull us out of our wars and start a new decade of peace or some crap. It was Obama against Romney, a guy that not once brought up those drone strikes as bad and had the GW Bush team as foreign policy advisors.
Saying those drone strikes are on the Obama voter's hands is in no way remotely similar to Trump voters being racist. Some fraction might be, but the choice we had Obama was, in my opinion, going to be the far better candidate when it came to foreign intervention and killing. That's a logical argument someone could make. No one in their right mind could say Trump was the less racist candidate compared to Hillary.
Okay, sell me on Trump without those things
Oh my god, I missed this paragraph when I read this the first time. Tell me your ass did not type this shit, son
Wait, what
More importantly I would also argue demonizing everyone that voted for him instead of trying to change their minds by presenting facts is not exactly helping the cause, ignorance is solved by education not by calling it names, but who knows maybe nazi Germany grew into modern day Germany due to name calling instead of actual education.
Yeah, I caught that the second time, too. I'm sure it wasn't the name-calling, sure, it was probably more to do with the war where we fucking killed a large part of them, the trials that proceeded after we found just how big the holocaust was, and the intense public shaming the Germans had to endear which included banning all Nazi shit. But maybe education was it, I dunno, I'm not a doctor
European so the closet thing we got is the rise to anti EU movement in recent months which I think is just about as short sighted and dumb as voting Trump.
Did you miss the whole "losing World War 2 and being occupied by and divided among the victors" part?That was sarcasm, one of the reason why Germany doesn't really entertain notions of good old days is because they are educated on how absurd Nazi Germany was.
"economically anxious"So what *is* the right term for people who are surprisingly cool with some pretty heinous shit?
I have an hard time selling on any candidate in the US, your system of extreme right and right is crazy, but I would imagine you had plenty of people that believed in the draining the swamp, and the bring the jobs back, and the improve the economy and all that bullshit, obviously I never thought he was going to do any of that, the men can't even run a business let alone an entire country, different people have different priorities, some people will prioritize privacy, others will prioritize financial wealth, others will prioritize gay rights, others transgender rights, others a stronger military, and they might have elected trump primarily for those reasons, and they might have found those reasons more important than what the negatives they thought Trump brought to the table.
I did, I believe that you should in fact try to inform and debate the issue with people to try and change their minds instead of calling them nazi racist scum, a well informed population is key to any good democracy.
Now do I think a lot of people will change their minds quickly, easily or at all by having people debate them on things? Not really, but it sure is far more likely to happen than name calling someone.
That was sarcasm, one of the reason why Germany doesn't really entertain notions of good old days is because they are educated on how absurd Nazi Germany was.
Lies, it happened when a brave soul challenged Hitler to a televised debate and asked armor piercing questions like why he thinks some people are sub-human, mocked his stupid reasons, and showed people he was a fool.
You are right, they aren't Nazi scum. They are still not the kind of people that I would call good, for their inability to give a shit about those in worst situations than them.So first thing's first: I didn't vote for you-know-who, but I also like to think I keep a purely neutral outlook on political arguments. I have enough things in my life to make me miserable as it is, and instead like to adopt a "call's it like I see's it" approach to politics (and as I currently sees it, he's not exactly off to a great start).
But even though I didn't vote for Trump, I do know people who did, many of them being my close friends and family. Last time I checked, none of them were closet Nazis. My grandmother is in her mid 80's, and has been every bit the model kind-hearted granny you tend to see in storybooks and movies.
But if social media was to be believed, I should be posting a video where I denounce her as a piece of shit Nazi who should burn in hell like the scum she was. I'm seeing a constant generalization of Trump voters and supporters that pit them as pure evil and beyond redemption.
And before you say "Well of course they don't LITERALLY mean EVERY person who was pro-Trump", but I've seen more than enough comments where people double-down and insist "No, we REALLY do mean EVERY one of them. Without exception." And I'm not just talking about hardcore unhinged people...I'm seeing this sentiment stem from people who I previously thought were educated and level-headed (not to mention not the type to crave violence).
Unless I'm missing a silent joke shared with the people who spout this, I find this sentiment both disturbing and childish. I also can't possibly be the only who notices the irony of labeling an entire subset of people under one stereotype (while also yearning for their literal demise).
Like I said, I call's it like I see's it. There are absolutely abhorrent, racist people out there, and the ones displayed for social media to ridicule do seem to fall under the category of Trump-lover.
But again, I'm pretty sure my family and friends aren't like that, grandma included. Did they make their choices out of ignorance? Probably. Did their choices help give us an unqualified leader who can potentially set our country back by decades? Sure looks that way? Are they evil scum who should be grouped together and thrown into their own metaphorical (and for some, literal) human-sized ovens?
That's...probably a bit much.
I hate the "If you're not with me, you're against me" mentality some people use for politics.
I refuse to play that game.
Reality is rarely as simple as good guys and bad guys.
Cool you consider yourself above basic human rights and decency. So woke.I hate the "If you're not with me, you're against me" mentality some people use for politics.
I refuse to play that game.
Reality is rarely as simple as good guys and bad guys.
Nationalism propped up with lies is another reason he won.
I hate the "If you're not with me, you're against me" mentality some people use for politics.
I refuse to play that game.
Reality is rarely as simple as good guys and bad guys.
I hate the "If you're not with me, you're against me" mentality some people use for politics.
I refuse to play that game.
Reality is rarely as simple as good guys and bad guys.
Not particularly. I didn't vote for Obama (wasn't 18), but knowing he had supported drone strikes, I still would've voted for him because not only did I support drone strikes in some circumstances, as better than a ground assault, but Romney would've been even worse in that regard. You take all of your candidates policies and actions, good and bad. That's just the reality of the world. Luckily one party cares about people and the planet, while the other doesn't. Makes my choice damn easy.This is a nightmarish world you are suggesting, in which the only possible action to take during an election is to not vote at all.
If Trump's biggest problem was calling Mexican's rapists (a far worse statement than Hillary's) 20 years ago, then apologizing for it, I don't think we would be having this argument. C'mon, false equivalencies abound.That time she called our people fucking superpredators, man. SUPERPREDATORS.
Sounds Trumpian as fuck now, honestly.
I hate the "If you're not with me, you're against me" mentality some people use for politics.
I refuse to play that game.
Reality is rarely as simple as good guys and bad guys.
Nationalism is just a another shade of racism, really.
Racism is racism, the spectrum of it doesn't matter unless we're in the bottom 1%-ish of behavior that doesn't hurt anybody. The point wasn't to focus on the candidates' racism but rather people's reaction to them. How many Clinton voters self-reflected on Clinton's faults, and how many of those people who didn't do that are expecting Trump voters to somehow be better thinkers and moralists than them? I think there's room for growth from everyone here.If Trump's biggest problem was calling Mexican's rapists (a far worse statement than Hillary's) 20 years ago, then apologizing for it while fighting for progressive causes afterwards, I don't think we would be having this argument. C'mon, false equivalencies abound.
I hate the "If you're not with me, you're against me" mentality some people use for politics.
I refuse to play that game.
Reality is rarely as simple as good guys and bad guys.
If Trump's biggest problem was calling Mexican's rapists (a far worse statement than Hillary's) 20 years ago, then apologizing for it, I don't think we would be having this argument. C'mon, false equivalencies abound.
I don't like that statement, or her support of the crime bill, or many of her other policies, but I'll still vote for her. I objectively support all of her current policies based on my vote (whether I like them or not), but can reflect on the fact that people change in 20 years.
Racism is racism, the spectrum of it doesn't matter unless we're in the bottom 1%-ish of behavior. The point wasn't to focus on the candidates' racism but rather people's reaction to them. How many Clinton voters self-reflected on Clinton's faults, and how many of those people who didn't do that are expecting Trump voters to somehow be better thinkers and moralists than them? I think there's room for growth from everyone here.
Like at some point the idea that all of America is racist because it was founded and sustained as a racist country for its entire lifetime is going to show up in these console war-style debates. Pointing fingers at Trump voters is silly with the perspective of the history and breadth of racism here. We're all complicit.I'm pretty sure Liu Kang is not being serious there.
EDIT: Guess he was...
Racism is racism, the spectrum of it doesn't matter unless we're in the bottom 1%-ish of behavior. The point wasn't to focus on the candidates' racism but rather people's reaction to them. How many people self-reflected on Clinton's faults, and how many of those people who didn't do that are somehow expecting Trump voters to be better thinkers and moralists than them?
Like at some point the idea that all of America is racist because it was founded and sustained as a racist country for its entire lifetime is going to show up in these console war-style debates. Pointing fingers at Trump voters is silly with the perspective of the history and breadth of racism here. We're all complicit.
I think there are millions of families who would have a word to say about you saying Clintons' push of their crime bill resulted in "nothing" compared to Trump's racism.Racism is racism, but let's not pretend there aren't tiers to this shit. Hillary's statement was absolutely diet racism, still harmful but nothing compared to Trump continually demeaning Hispanics, blacks, and Muslims thoughout his campaign. Trump, unlike other candidates in the past, didn't even try to be discrete. He just went full racist as if it wasn't a big deal at all. So you can be damn sure I'll look down on Trump voters for not reflecting on that shit more than Clinton or Romney, or McCain, or Obama, or whomever. The difference is huge.
I got family who voted trump. While I don't call them Nazi scum I will call them ignorant trash at best. I'll say the same for about any trump supporter.