Littleberu
Banned
Oh god, GAF.
It's an option, a feature. And, still, you're complaining?
It's an option, a feature. And, still, you're complaining?
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Alone In The Dark - you can 'skip' through game
- Thread starter PrivateRyan
- Start date
The game designers aren't doing their job properly if you really have to skip sections of the game out. Thats my point. If they design the game well there should be no need to skip at all.JDSN said:
This just sounds like the devs done a rubbish job on the game design and are using this skip feature to cover up their mess.
Put it this way it's like the dev giving you God Mode when you die x amount of times in a level. The game should not be out right unforgiving but it should require some skill from the player to get through it. If they have put you in a situation where it is almost impossible to get through without some sort of glitching or cheats then they havn't done their job.
By all means yeah this feature is great as an unlockable once you have finished the game, but does it sound right comming from the devs that they have added a feature to allow you to skip all the "game" right from the get go?
Baryn said:
Give gamers an inch, they will take an acre. You really just gave people on the fence an excuse to not buy the game and just watch it be skipped through on youtube.
I'm all for options, but this really kind of screams "parts of this game will suck so bad you will want to skip them". If that ends up the case, bravo? :lol
PuppetSlave
Member
People should not get too upset about the bitching. This is gaf. Their could be a thread that says come in here for free pie and their would be people coming in and complaining.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
They should call it "Sissy mode" and constantly egg you on for using it like the devs did in Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma for playing the easier modes calling it "Ninja Dog" and giving Ryu a pink ninja outfit.
PrivateRyan
Member
Dibbz said:
If all games were designed properly, then GameFAQs would be out of business.
Everyone hits a wall in some game at some point. I hit one in Bioshock towards the end of the game and got stuck for a few hours aimlessly wandering around, trying to figure out what to do next, and I wouldn't say that suffers from bad design. I just tripped up towards the end. Happens to us all.
It's how gamers react to these moments that's the difference. We might be able to persist for half an hour, an hour, a few hours or however long it takes but casual gamers don't - this is why the option is there (and like someone else says, it's the same function as a walkthrough/cheat code but with added convenience, obviously). And I'm making the differentiation between us and casual gamers because we care enough about games to vist NeoGAF, read threads, engage in discussion, indulge our hobby etc while a casual gamer might just have grabbed it off the shelf because it had a good review in a lifestyle mag or a cool TV advert or whatever. I doubt they'll bang their head against the wall for a few hours for the sake of gaming pride or achievements.
If it exists as an option, I don't see why it's a problem or even indicative that the final game will suffer from flawed design. It could be a safety net rather than a band-aid, you know?
Dibbz said:
Your example kinda stops making sense when you realize that the game is giving you the option to do this rather than answering the question for you, but then again you already reviewed the game in your mind so I dont see why you care about this that much.
PuppetSlave said:
Yeah, nothing surprises me after that Battlefield Heroes thread.
DangerStepp
Member
Very interesting, though something I'm sure completists such as myself will ignore. Nothing to complain about--more options are never a bad thing as long as you're keeping things straight laced for old schoolers, too.
Hmm, so what do we have there ?
Okay now let's gaf-translate this :
OWW SOUNDS MUCH BETTER NOW.
Seriously, "at a cost" guys. It can be anything, preventing your life bar from an upgrade, depriving the player of a non-compulsory but still quite useful object, taking a good chunk of your health points, whatever. Or you could just have a limited number of skipping for the whole playthrough.
For example Rub Rabbits on the DS let you skip one and only one level for your whole game, and I knew I wouldn't have finished the game without it. Of course it was because one of these minigames was far too hard and quite frustrating. But what do you prefer ? Playing a game you purchased until you reach a far too hard/frustrating sequence and ending up not finishing it because you can't go further; or crashing your pad into a nearby wall, insulting the crappy devs who did this, go out to kick off some magazine racks in your rage, then come back home and continue your playthrough because you were allowed to skip this sequence ? I certainly prefer the later.
I'm not saying devs will be excused if some of the game is crap-designed, and you know they wont. Only this time it wont prevent you from finishing the game.
This is not necessarily game breaking. Though it will be if done wrong, of if the devs are dumb.
Okay now let's gaf-translate this :
OWW SOUNDS MUCH BETTER NOW.
Seriously, "at a cost" guys. It can be anything, preventing your life bar from an upgrade, depriving the player of a non-compulsory but still quite useful object, taking a good chunk of your health points, whatever. Or you could just have a limited number of skipping for the whole playthrough.
For example Rub Rabbits on the DS let you skip one and only one level for your whole game, and I knew I wouldn't have finished the game without it. Of course it was because one of these minigames was far too hard and quite frustrating. But what do you prefer ? Playing a game you purchased until you reach a far too hard/frustrating sequence and ending up not finishing it because you can't go further; or crashing your pad into a nearby wall, insulting the crappy devs who did this, go out to kick off some magazine racks in your rage, then come back home and continue your playthrough because you were allowed to skip this sequence ? I certainly prefer the later.
I'm not saying devs will be excused if some of the game is crap-designed, and you know they wont. Only this time it wont prevent you from finishing the game.
This is not necessarily game breaking. Though it will be if done wrong, of if the devs are dumb.
If the "cost" extends beyond things like worthless achievements and can actually hamper your progress later on (as mentioned, life meters and the like), then it works as an element of nonlinearity.
If the cost is ultimately throwaway, though, then being able to skip portions of the game still serves as part of the game's design and yes, even having the option/temptation would be annoying to me.
If the cost is ultimately throwaway, though, then being able to skip portions of the game still serves as part of the game's design and yes, even having the option/temptation would be annoying to me.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Imagine. The Water Temple. Skippage. I may have actually finished that.
Also, BRILLIANT!
Also, BRILLIANT!
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Only on GAF would people be for a feature like "no pause button" and against a feature like this.
Games are supposed to be fun. Options that make the game more enjoyable for other people aren't going to make it less fun for you.
I think games have evolved to the point where devs should no longer be actively striving to punish players, but rather entertain them. People who can't finish your game aren't entertained, which is why we need Ninja Dog modes and options like this FF so the non-message board posting, GameFAQs surfing, achievement whoring crowd can still enjoy this hobby of ours.
As long as the game itself isn't dumbed down, why should we care?
Games are supposed to be fun. Options that make the game more enjoyable for other people aren't going to make it less fun for you.
I think games have evolved to the point where devs should no longer be actively striving to punish players, but rather entertain them. People who can't finish your game aren't entertained, which is why we need Ninja Dog modes and options like this FF so the non-message board posting, GameFAQs surfing, achievement whoring crowd can still enjoy this hobby of ours.
As long as the game itself isn't dumbed down, why should we care?
I suppose you haters are also upset that you can play any part of Spore from the beginning too? I bet burnout really pisses you off as well. Fuck freedom, I want to be told what to do and in what order I need to do it.
If I'm paying $60 for it, I should be able to play it any god damn way I want.
I'm going to play this game backwards, just because I can
If I'm paying $60 for it, I should be able to play it any god damn way I want.
I'm going to play this game backwards, just because I can
Sho_Nuff82 said:
I'd actually argue that the presence of an option, depending on how its handled, absolutely can effect someone who isn't using it. I hate feeling like I'm imposing rules on myself when I play certain kinds of games.
I should have clarified that I'm doubting it will be much of a problem in the case of a game like this. Still, it isn't a feature that I want to see become an absolute standard.
bigmit3737
Member
Not we just need to implement an auto-level feature in those rpg's that require grind.
That will please the hardcore's that want 100 hrs of gameplay...and people like me who, had backtracking and grinding.
That will please the hardcore's that want 100 hrs of gameplay...and people like me who, had backtracking and grinding.
lastendconductor
Put your snobby liquids into my mouth!
Hey, why don't they just put a THE END screen on the disc and have you play just that? instant satisfaction for the idiotic!!
Stop dumbing down my games kthxbye.
Stop dumbing down my games kthxbye.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Tain said:
Did the existence of 1 star difficulty affect your abillity to enjoy the home versions of Street Fighter II? I mean, you don't have to play it, but you're making it seem like its inclusion is some abomination that stains the entire game.
"OMG, the arcade mode is at least 4 stars! This bullshit is letting newbs view the end credits! And what the fuck is training mode? You're supposed to learn by getting your ass kicked by the computer repeatedly, not by beating up on some dummy!"
More options is always a better thing. Asking some players to exercise self control is much better than asking many players to overcome possibly questionable game design. If someone ever puts down your game, never to touch it again, because of ONE part of your otherwise great game, you have failed them as a game designer.
I fail to see how the fact we'll be able to skip some parts of the game will translate into "fun". Fun is not about what you are allowed not to do, but about what you do.Sho_Nuff82 said:
When a game designer thinks his game may need an option such as this one, it's either he's not confident people will find it "fun" the whole way through, or because he thinks the main attraction of his game lies not in the gameplay parts but in the story ones. "Oh hell, some people are not going to be able to follow this all marvelous story we wrote, such a shame, let's not give them an excuse to do so!".
This is what bothers me the most in this quote, and the DVD comparison thing points strongly into that direction, that Eden Studio might see their game more as a movie than as a game in itself. Because, yeah, it's easy talking in general there, but does a *SURVIVAL* game really needs to be allowing you to skip some gameplay parts of it for a reason or another? What about the mood? What about the tension they may have built up 'till this point? How do you frighten someone or make them anxious when they know they can skip parts at will?
Of course as usual we're talking out of our arses, and maybe this idea will be brilliantly implemented, but the way the producer talks about it as mainly an achievement thing doesn't make me too optimistic about it: it could really be an interesting lead to follow, but it would need to be one of the center pieces of a project, not an afterthought as they make it look like.
Joseph Merrick
Member
:lol Thanks guys. This is the dumbest thread I've read today.
BrokenSymmetry
Member
Great idea. As mentioned before in this thread, the fact that a movie on DVD has the option to skip parts of the movie doesn't mean that most people won't watch it all, but the option to skip the boring or impossible parts is great.
Shito said:
I don't think any designer, whether they have confidence in their game or not, wants to put in a "skip this level that we spent 6 months making" button. Which is why practically no games let you do it. I don't see this as a vote of no confidence in their game, I see it as listening to what people want, and giving it to them, despite how painful it is for them. Look at how long it took for us to get the ability to skip cutscenes. Are all skippable cutscenes bad? Are all nonskippable cutscenes good?
It's about what the consumers want. No matter how good a game is, there are going to be parts that some people think are too hard, or too dull or just bad. Why shouldn't I be able to skip parts that I don't like?
Gully State
Member
Everyone talks like this is the first time something like this is implimented. Off the top of my head, Blizzard RTS allowed you to essentially skip levels you couldn't complete.
We do not share the same vision of what games should try to be, I'm afraid.pj325is said:
To answer your last question quickly (because I'm in a rush): you shouldn't be allowed to skip parts you don't like because you don't know them yet. Because they may be there on purpose. Because they may teach you something. Or because maybe you just didn't understand them the first time through.
Of course I'm talking thinking this option will be there on the first run, for a second run this might be a good "easy" idea.
Why I'm really not for this is because the moment you have the opportunity to start skipping parts of someting you're involved in (comparisons with DVD chapters are really dull there), you start not caring anymore about the whole thing. Tension is gone. Frustration too. And then, accomplishment.
Shito said:
I agree that it would kill MY sense of tension and accomplishment, which is why I won't do it. Similar to how I don't use items in dmc4, even though it would make the game a lot easier and less frustrating. I WANT THAT FUCKIN NO ITEMS BONUS AT THE END OF THE STAGE
We're not talking about me or you, though, we're talking about casuals. I have a brother and two step brothers who are all fairly heavily into games, and yet they DO NOT CARE about game stories at all, and they just stop playing the game permanently if they get stuck. Casuals have no tolerance for frustration. Giving them options that allow them to experience more of the game, without intruding on my experience, is nothing but a good thing.
You missed an important thing in what I'm saying: that it will destroy any sense of tension for anyone playing the game, even you or me or a casual, because the option is THERE.
You're not forced to use it, of course, but it *is* there, relieving all the stress that "oh my god what might come next now?". The game is trying to put you in a stressful situation, while at the same time telling you it doesn't matter, really, because you can always skip things you don't like, or that might bore you or frighten you too much. This can't work in this setting. You sometimes need to be pushed into certain situations you won't like to be able to understand a story, a character, a puzzle, or anything coming after that. You are not the one deciding of the events, the game is, you're only *interacting* with it. More power to the people is not something you should want in every case.
Trying to absolutely catter to the "casual" crowd (which starts to piss me off quite a bit I must admit ^^) is not that simple that "because casuals will like this option there won't be any consequences on the rest of the public".
This is the broken logic that "casuals" play for fun and "hardcores" for achievements, which is the dumbest thing ever to think. This option is really not something a game designer should take lightly, for it has the power to kill its game, more so in the survival genre.
You're not forced to use it, of course, but it *is* there, relieving all the stress that "oh my god what might come next now?". The game is trying to put you in a stressful situation, while at the same time telling you it doesn't matter, really, because you can always skip things you don't like, or that might bore you or frighten you too much. This can't work in this setting. You sometimes need to be pushed into certain situations you won't like to be able to understand a story, a character, a puzzle, or anything coming after that. You are not the one deciding of the events, the game is, you're only *interacting* with it. More power to the people is not something you should want in every case.
Trying to absolutely catter to the "casual" crowd (which starts to piss me off quite a bit I must admit ^^) is not that simple that "because casuals will like this option there won't be any consequences on the rest of the public".
This is the broken logic that "casuals" play for fun and "hardcores" for achievements, which is the dumbest thing ever to think. This option is really not something a game designer should take lightly, for it has the power to kill its game, more so in the survival genre.
Shito said:
How would it destroy my tension? This is quickly turning into the oblivion fast travel argument..
Are you saying that no game that has ever had cheats has had tension, simply because the cheats exist? It's ridiculous. If you want the tension, you don't use the skip levels thing, the end.
Also, I wasn't saying that casuals play for fun and hardcores play for achievements, at all. I was saying that everyone plays for fun, but casuals have a much lower threshold for frustration. Casuals play until it stops being fun, and then that's it, the game gets traded in or put away. Hardcores are more likely to push through to the end, and they get the sense of accomplishment from beating the game.
Assuming the hardcores have the small amount of restraint necessary to not skip parts, meaning the option will have no effect on them whatsoever, here's how it will change the game:
Scenario 1: Casual player gets stuck, no option to skip past, player stops playing and sells game.
Scenario 2: Casual player gets stuck, skips hard part, plays more, maybe gets stuck again, skips, sees end, sells game
Who exactly is losing out here?
Night_Trekker
Member
What a fucking terrible idea.
andydumi said:
Nothing. So what ? Do we care ? If Johnny is dumb enough to reach the conclusion of a game he just payed $60 for it's his problem.
It's like the "L and R" thing in F Zero GX. Yes you can use it and beat the whole game with that. But if you do it you're stupid. Or you hate playing this game. Or you only wanted to beat it so that you can tell everybody on message boards.
Hm ? Your game is dumbed down ? It's dumbed down only if you skip every scene of it.
But I'm totally sure a hardcore gamer like you wont have to use this feature right ? After all you're not a casual. Filthy casuals and there non games.
Urg, I can't believe how proud some people are to finish a game. "Wut ? Casual gamer can reach the end of the same game as me ? BUBUBU STOP RUINING MY HOBBY"
Exactly what I said in my first post. But the thing is, some hardcore gamers here seem far too weak to restrain themselves from using it.
Someone respond to me from the first page, please. Absolutely no one has addressed this point and I think I'm right.
As an addendum, it'd be great when you've finished it and you want to quickly replay a section of the game again. Or if you take it to a friends house and you want to show them a particularly cool section of the game without your save file to hand. The only reason to be against it is a feeling of 'wrongness' that you shouldn't be able to do it, but that doesn't really make any logical sense.
Someone who goes right into chapter 4 or whatever before playing any other section beforehand would be no different from someone starting to watch a DVD from 20 minutes in - a weirdo.
As an addendum, it'd be great when you've finished it and you want to quickly replay a section of the game again. Or if you take it to a friends house and you want to show them a particularly cool section of the game without your save file to hand. The only reason to be against it is a feeling of 'wrongness' that you shouldn't be able to do it, but that doesn't really make any logical sense.
Someone who goes right into chapter 4 or whatever before playing any other section beforehand would be no different from someone starting to watch a DVD from 20 minutes in - a weirdo.
TemplaerDude
Member
Mr.City said:
because they're trying to tell a certain story?
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