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[chadskin]

I guess I don't get why the console APUs, or at least tech closer to them, will remain exclusive to those two platforms. You don't see things going in that direction by the time, say, 2015 rolls around?

I was purely talking about the performance of these new AMD Kaveri APUs, not future APU products, sorry if it came across otherwise. What I wanted to say was these Kaveri APUs should not be seen as an option if you are looking for a console-like experience in a $299/$399 gaming PC, imho. You will need to upgrade it much earlier than a PS4/Xbone, with the added benefit of having (slightly) better graphics than the consoles once you do though.

For tech companies, it doesn't really make sense to bring the "console approach" to the desktop. PC gaming and beefier hardware is still a relatively small niché of the overall CPU and GPU market. Basically changing how a computer operates just to get more out of an APU isn't worth the effort for such a small share of people. Also, since consoles are gaming dedicated devices Sony and MS were able to use a weaker CPU (1,8/2 GHz, based on a notebook CPU) while beefing up the GPU side of the chip. A PC still needs a somewhat powerful CPU which in turn uses up more space on the chip and limits the GPU capabilities.

And that's just hardware, I don't even think Windows would be able to handle a shared pool of memory for CPU and GPU like the consoles have.

No doubt these APUs will catch up with consoles performance-wise over time, simply due to their yearly upgrade cycle, they'll just eat up the benefits of a console.

 

[DieH@rd]

Durante, this slide seems to quite directly address what you were saying the other day regarding CPU overhead and Mantle, even the i7 seems to benefit a LOT from the new API.

We knew from the beginning that Mantle works perfectly with Intel processors.

 

[Seanspeed]

iGPU are getting better and AMD APUs are good for gaming with decent settings. I believe these recent versions will allow for at least 1080p30 on medium. That's equal to console settings which also have APUs in them

The newer, more demanding games show that its barely able to get 30fps at 1080p on low settings. Games are not going to get less demanding going forward, so that's still pretty much bare minimum and wouldn't be nearly acceptable for the vast majority of existing PC gamers.

Still, its good news that improvements are being made here. The higher the bar gets raised at the low end, the more affordable and enticing PC gaming will become for people.

 

[lensoftruth]

Why compare against the HD4600 and not the Iris and Iris Pro?

 

[Stimpack]

Stop trying to make integrated GPU's for PC gaming happen. They're not going to happen. 40fps on low settings in Tomb Raider is barely playable.

It's a step in another direction. It's never going to phase out dedicated options, but it's not trying to, and it's not going to take anything away from you. I believe the advancements in this field will show benefits down the road in many interesting ways.

 

[Perkel]

Stop trying to make integrated GPU's for PC gaming happen. They're not going to happen. 40fps on low settings in Tomb Raider is barely playable.

You do realize that currently only AMD sells bare consumer cpus ?

APU is the feature and AMD is doing everything to get HSA apus as soon as possible. Kaveri is theis first hsa apu.

When HSA hits and devs will start to use it, ton of things will change for the better.

For example physic mostly done on cpus will be offloaded to gpu part of apu leaving cpu and dedicated gpu to do other things. And there are far more uses of that beside gaming.

 

[Razgreez]

Needs more GPU cores and faster memory/more memory bandwidth

 

[Kysen]

Still waiting for a worthy upgrade to my i7-920.

Tell me about it, for me to upgrade I have to buy a new mobo on top of memory/CPU. So the upgrade has to be worth it.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Stop trying to make integrated GPU's for PC gaming happen. They're not going to happen. 40fps on low settings in Tomb Raider is barely playable.

You miss the point, these things are cheaper than Intel CPUs, perform nearly the same AND have integrated graphics that are xx% faster which can leverage apps that use OpenCL without having to buy a discrete GPU that costs more than APU does.

People who play games on PC who care about performance will still go Intel + discrete GPU, an APU equipped PC would be great for a second PC for a partner, child, etc.. and still be dirt cheap.

More importantly, it is COMPETITION for Intel, you can't honestly say Intel have done much with their lineup because AMD has been that far behind. OK their CPUs are faster but they are also expensive. With consoles having APUs, Steam Boxes with APUs, the push towards smaller, quieter and less power consumption, apps starting to use OpenCL/GPGPU, it's going to give Intel a kick in the pants.

 

[Contra11]

Why compare against the HD4600 and not the Iris and Iris Pro?

Because Iris Pro is expensive ?

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Still waiting for a worthy upgrade to my i7-920.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/47?vs=836

 

[Panajev2001a]

We knew from the beginning that Mantle works perfectly with Intel processors.

That was not my point . What this slide focuses on is the idea that Mantle is much more than a bandaid for low performance CPU's and can actually open up new roads for game developers who want to push the CPU hard as well and in some genres where this is possible like RTS games the results are evident. Mantle seem to offer basically the same kind of performance leap on both represented processors too.

This slide of course does not say anything about CPU overhead vs rendering resolution which is the other point Durante was also mentioning.

 

[robjoh]

What I wanted to say was these Kaveri APUs should not be seen as an option if you are looking for a console-like experience in a $299/$399 gaming PC, imho. You will need to upgrade it much earlier than a PS4/Xbone, with the added benefit of having (slightly) better graphics than the consoles once you do though.

Actually I think they should be seen as an alternative as the cost for upgrading under the period might be cheaper than paying for online and more expansive games.

For tech companies, it doesn't really make sense to bring the "console approach" to the desktop. PC gaming and beefier hardware is still a relatively small niché of the overall CPU and GPU market.

I do not really understand what you mean with "console approach". AMD had APUs before Xbox One and PS4.

As I see it the people that benefits from Kavari are PC gamers.
1, If you like me mostly play games such as EUIV and indie games, kavari will be more than enough. This lowers the entry price.
2, Kavari in mainstream computers means that the lowest graphical settings might be raised.

 

[Perkel]

That was not my point . What this slide focuses on is the idea that Mantle is much more than a bandaid for low performance CPU's and can actually open up new roads for game developers who want to push the CPU hard as well and in some genres where this is possible like RTS games the results are evident. Mantle seem to offer basically the same kind of performance leap on both represented processors too.

This slide of course does not say anything about CPU overhead vs rendering resolution which is the other point Durante was also mentioning.

Imo i think Mantle is glue which will tie their HSA apus with GPUs from ati.

Without mantle they would need to wait for implementation of their tech by MS (dx). Thanks to Mantle they can for example write drivers themselves for HSA apus coupled with their gpus.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Imo i think Mantle is glue which will tie their HSA apus with GPUs from ati.

Without mantle they would need to wait for implementation of their tech by MS (dx). Thanks to Mantle they can for example write drivers themselves for HSA apus coupled with their gpus.

Mantle is one of the keys to such a strategy, but OpenCL 2.x and future proprietary OpenGL extensions/possible core specs updates are another one. Also, AMD should seriously court Apple with their APU's IMHO. They need to get this kind of design wins.

 

[chadskin]

Actually I think they should be seen as an alternative as the cost for upgrading under the period might be cheaper than paying for online and more expansive games.

That's ultimately up to the user. PS+ offers good games for free and as of now, I can resell all my console games. Something that's not always possible on the PC due to Steam/Uplay/Origin, even if you buy your games at retail. So that'd some counter-arguments. But again, it's ultimately up to the user. I personally don't see a big advantage one way over the other.

I do not really understand what you mean with "console approach". AMD had APUs before Xbox One and PS4.

"Console approach", as in shared memory pool for CPU and GPU, for example. That's not something you'll see on a PC, at least for quite some time, if ever. While the consoles are more similar than ever to a PC, there're still somewhat big differences architecturally as well as on the software side.

 

[Aad]

This is the kind of stuff I'm sure Nintendo will be eyeing up.

 

[DonMigs85]

Gonna strongly consider this for my small PC build this year.
Will wait for Anandtech's review first

 

[ToastyBanana]

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/47?vs=836

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7189/choosing-a-gaming-cpu-september-2013/6
I prefer this series of charts as a comparison with gaming as the primary use. I'm still on an overclocked i7 920 too. GPU upgrading is all I've needed the past 3-4 years.

 

[gokieks]

"Console approach", as in shared memory pool for CPU and GPU, for example. That's not something you'll see on a PC, at least for quite some time, if ever.

Have you actually looked at what Kaveri is? hUMA / HSA is precisely that.

 

[Hazaro]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7189/choosing-a-gaming-cpu-september-2013/6
I prefer this series of charts as a comparison with gaming as the primary use. I'm still on an overclocked i7 920 too. GPU upgrading is all I've needed the past 3-4 years.

I forget the exact reasons but I am supposed to be very mad at this roundup. I think it's because of lack of minimum frames (Which he addresses as taking too much time to redo) and frame latency / FCAT.

Sucks because he's frreelance and can't do it, oh well.

 

[robjoh]

That's ultimately up to the user. PS+ offers good games for free and as of now, I can resell all my console games. Something that's not always possible on the PC due to Steam/Uplay/Origin, even if you buy your games at retail. So that'd some counter-arguments. But again, it's ultimately up to the user. I personally don't see a big advantage one way over the other.

True, I have never resold a single game as I like to keep my library. Same reason why I not a big fan of the PS+ free games.

"Console approach", as in shared memory pool for CPU and GPU, for example. That's not something you'll see on a PC, at least for quite some time, if ever. While the consoles are more similar than ever to a PC, there're still somewhat big differences architecturally as well as on the software side.

Well AMD has worked on exactly that for a while now and Kavari is the result. That does however not matters. What matters is why you think the idea of shared memory is a bad idea? As an mechanical engineer I think the idea of shared resources sounds really good.

 

[witchedwiz]

dat nearly equal...
nearly equal if you go with a budget gpu...
master race usually aims for higher end performance (if not top) and definitely it's something out of reach for this new amd cpus with newgen apu
imho

 

[Atolm]

So why none of the announced Steam Machines use this?. It seems perfect for an entry-level device. You could launch a Steam machine with a A10-7850k for how much? 299-399$?

I want a cheap-ass PC to play Dota 2, TF2 and a few other low-requeriment games. Don't need more.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Am I the only one excited about this?

I think it's great having a chip that is comparable to a high end Core i5 but also having 4 "compute cores" that could be leveraged by doing physics and TrueAudio processing freeing up the CPU cores and Discrete GPU.

When did everyone get so closed minded?

Sure it's not going to beat a 4960x but its not a $900 CPU either.

 

[SparkTR]

So why none of the announced Steam Machines use this?. It seems perfect for a entry-level device. You could launch a Steam machine with a A10-7850k for how much) 299-399$?

I want a cheap-ass PC to play Dota 2, TF2 and a few other low-requeriment games. Don't need more.

They probably will. This stuff is still early days.

 

[wildfire]

You miss the point, these things are cheaper than Intel CPUs, perform nearly the same AND have integrated graphics that are xx% faster which can leverage apps that use OpenCL without having to buy a discrete GPU that costs more than APU does.

This isn't the case because of the core i3 haswell edition. At stock speeds it's just as good as an i5 for gaming. I doubt AMD overclocked the i5 they were comparing with in their chart so they are most likely still screwed.

And that's just for gaming. The intel i3 will be better than the AMD CPU portion for most non-gaming tasks which makes AMD a poor proposition even with the ones priced below $120.

 

[Frodo]

Does this mean I'll be able to buy a dirty cheap laptop that will runs Battlefield 4 at 30fps?

 

[GameAddict411]

That's not gonna happen. An i7 with integrated graphics sure. But both an i7 and a 780? No.

I said "has the same performance as" not integrate those particular processors into one chip, something like a 290(underclocked) and an eight core AMD processor paired with 512-bit GDDR5 memory.

 

[fritolay]

My next PC purchase I will look to buy AMD.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Wow what a misleading thread title....

this is the only graph that comes close to adressing cpu performance
and what do they do? they use gpu limited games in combination with a low end gpu to skew the results

the only heavily cpu limited game in there is saints row 4 (which runs like crap on my phenom II btw which is how I know) and that performs really poorly in that graph

There is a reason they aren't showing cpu limited games like planetside 2 , ns2 , civ 5, why they dont use a high end gpu like a 290x for the gpu limited scenario (this is extra telling as apparently these things bottleneck everything over a 270x ) or why there aren't any cpu benchmarks there...

The thread title really needs a change as it's most likely far from true and definitely can't be concluded from that presentation
It's just false hype and skewed information that will make people buy these expecting to get i5 performance

 

[xenist]

I said "has the same performance as" not integrate those particular processors into one chip, something like a 290(underclocked) and an eight core AMD processor paired with 512-bit GDDR5 memory.

I know what you mean and it still isn't gonna happen. It would be the most monstrously complex, power hungry silicon imaginable. It would be a nightmare to design, fabricate or cool.

 

[Canis lupus]

May find its way in a small testing/htpc I plan to build.

 

[kharma45]

Still waiting for a worthy upgrade to my i7-920.

You'll be waiting a while yet I'd imagine, especially if you've overclocked that i7. Still a cracker CPU.

 

[DonMigs85]

This isn't the case because of the core i3 haswell edition. At stock speeds it's just as good as an i5 for gaming. I doubt AMD overclocked the i5 they were comparing with in their chart so they are most likely still screwed.

And that's just for gaming. The intel i3 will be better than the AMD CPU portion for most non-gaming tasks which makes AMD a poor proposition even with the ones priced below $120.

It will become more limited once multithreading becomes more common in PC games, it's still just a dual core with hyperthreading only.

 

[kharma45]

It will become more limited once multithreading becomes more common in PC games, it's still just a dual core with hyperthreading only.

So similar to the quad 'core' in AMD's A8 and A10 APUs where it's just two Steamroller modules.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

People forget just how crappy Intel IGP was until AMD pushed them.

Until Apple pushed them.

 

[xenist]

You'll be waiting a while yet I'd imagine, especially if you've overclocked that i7. Still a cracker CPU.

I have an i7 2600K overclocked to 3.8GHz. Until it dies I'll never have to get a new CPU. Ever, it seems. It is ridiculously, ludicrously overpowered for games.

 

[kharma45]

I have an i7 2600K overclocked to 3.8GHz. Until it dies I'll never have to get a new CPU. Ever, it seems. It is ridiculously, ludicrously overpowered for games.

Push it further, much further. Some will do 4.8GHz, at worst you'll get to 4.2GHz.

 

[hoserx]

Still waiting for a worthy upgrade to my i7-920.

Depending on what you do, there still really isn't one yet. I hopped up to X79 just for fun but really, I don't know why. The 920 will go down as one of the GOATs.

 

[AJLma]

This isn't the case because of the core i3 haswell edition. At stock speeds it's just as good as an i5 for gaming. I doubt AMD overclocked the i5 they were comparing with in their chart so they are most likely still screwed.

And that's just for gaming. The intel i3 will be better than the AMD CPU portion for most non-gaming tasks which makes AMD a poor proposition even with the ones priced below $120.

I'd like to see how an i3 stacks up against Kaveri in something like PCMark.

 

[SolidsnackooFoxhound]

Still waiting for a worthy upgrade to my i7-920.

Agreed.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

Wow what a misleading thread title....

this is the only graph that comes close to adressing cpu performance
and what do they do? they use gpu limited games in combination with a low end gpu to skew the results

the only heavily cpu limited game in there is saints row 4 (which runs like crap on my phenom II btw which is how I know) and that performs really poorly in that graph

There is a reason they aren't showing cpu limited games like planetside 2 , ns2 , civ 5, why they dont use a high end gpu like a 290x for the gpu limited scenario (this is extra telling as apparently these things bottleneck everything over a 270x ) or why there aren't any cpu benchmarks there...

The thread title really needs a change as it's most likely far from true and definitely can't be concluded from that presentation
It's just false hype and skewed information that will make people buy these expecting to get i5 performance

Good post. Graphs from the companies trying to sell you a product should always be taken with a grain of salt. As always, wait for multiple reviews of a product.

 

[Shambles]

What's with the garbage title? AMDs iGPUs have consistently been faster than Intels for years. The problem is no one cares about iGPUs, we care about AMDs terrible CPU performance. Kaveri can't touch an i5 Haswell.

 

[xenist]

Push it further, much further. Some will do 4.8GHz, at worst you'll get to 4.2GHz.

Why? Even pushed so little it barely goes above 50%.

 

[Sinatar]

Having decent cheaply available integrated graphics is *huge* for the PC gaming market, this is really great news.

 

[Majukun]

does this mean that now amd's cpu are a viable option for a good gaming configuration?until now i always heard people saying that the intel way was the right one.

 

[Durante]

What's with the garbage title? AMDs iGPUs have consistently been faster than Intels for years. The problem is no one cares about iGPUs, we care about AMDs terrible CPU performance. Kaveri can't touch an i5 Haswell.

I agree for the high-end market (which most of PC GAF, including me, are part of), but mainstream devices like low-end Steam machines could benefit greatly.

Durante, this slide seems to quite directly address what you were saying the other day regarding CPU overhead and Mantle, even the i7 seems to benefit a LOT from the new API.

Well yes, but it does benefit relatively less than the slower processor. Also, it's an unreleased benchmark, specifically designed to illustrate the advantages of Mantle, and without many details about what is actually being benchmarked (or even if the comparison is to modern, optimized DirectX11 or DirectX9). I'd like to see independent measurements on actual games at realistic settings.

Obviously, if you make a benchmark which is 90% draw call limited, then it will still benefit even on a very fast CPU. I just wonder how that translates into real games. And I also wonder how well optimized the non-Mantle paths in Oxide are.

Mantle is one of the keys to such a strategy, but OpenCL 2.x and future proprietary OpenGL extensions/possible core specs updates are another one. Also, AMD should seriously court Apple with their APU's IMHO. They need to get this kind of design wins.

With modern OpenGL in combination with OpenCL you can generate draw calls without involving the CPU at all

this is the only graph that comes close to adressing cpu performance
and what do they do? they use gpu limited games in combination with a low end gpu to skew the results

the only heavily cpu limited game in there is saints row 4 (which runs like crap on my phenom II btw which is how I know) and that performs really poorly in that graph

There is a reason they aren't showing cpu limited games like planetside 2 , ns2 , civ 5, why they dont use a high end gpu like a 290x for the gpu limited scenario (this is extra telling as apparently these things bottleneck everything over a 270x ) or why there aren't any cpu benchmarks there...

The thread title really needs a change as it's most likely far from true and definitely can't be concluded from that presentation
It's just false hype and skewed information that will make people buy these expecting to get i5 performance

Yeah, I agree that the "NEARLY EQUAL" in the thread title is likely greatly overstating the CPU performance of this APU.

 

[indigo-cyclops]

Warms my heart to see this. I went AMD pretty much exclusively for price reasons, but finally bought an Intel a few weeks ago.

Would gladly jump back in if the AMD products start becoming a real threat.

 

[ghst]

it's an AMD APU. it will be a good budget solution if you don't need the horsepower to really push framerates or render times and want a reasonably low power footprint.

as was, as is, as will be.