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[viveks86]

I am no technical authority on the matter. Just wanted to share this here since it came as a shock to me. Let me know your thoughts!

I talked with a couple of other tech editors and we agreed that there was a slight miscommunication on the purpose of Mantle. The general intent of Mantle was thought to be an increase in GPU performance, but that is not exactly the case. What Mantle basically does is, that it removes a lot of the load from the CPU to allow the GPU to run at its true potential. AMD Coins this as CPU-Bound and GPU-Bound Scenarios. However if you are already the owner of a well rounded rig, Mantle wont bring any drastic change.

There is a lot more to read at the source:
http://wccftech.com/amd-launches-mantle-beta-low-end-cpus-not-gpus/

EDIT:

The credibility of this source has come under scrutiny. Since it's more productive to talk about the material itself, let's discuss the one from Extreme Tech.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...s-actually-for-boosting-low-end-cpus-not-gpus

There are some key elements of Mantle that haven’t been communicated as clearly as they might have been. Mantle was announced at a GPU launch as an alternative to existing GPU APIs like OpenGL and DirectX. Most of the discussion of the API has therefore focused on how much Mantle would improve the performance of AMD’s various graphics cards by allowing for a vastly higher number of draw calls to be submitted per frame.

The problem with this focus is that it implies that Mantle makes a game run faster by making the GPU more efficient. In reality, Mantle is aimed at improving the performance and reducing the workload on the CPU side of the equation. That means Mantle’s performance improvements vis-à-vis DirectX 11 will depend on whether or not a game is CPU-bound or not.

UPDATE:

Driver is out!

Link to AMD's page
http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/latest-catalyst-windows-beta.aspx

 

[reptilescorpio]

Well that sounds different to what people were originally saying

 

[Instro]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=760268

 

[ZSeba]

Perfect fit for me then!

Spoiler

If I had an amd card tho :c

 

[slapnuts]

Well that sounds different to what people were originally saying

very different, actually

what a letdown

 

[DarkLiberator]

It actually benefits both extreme high end and low end too. Reduced CPU bottleneck would greatly help out multi-video card setups.

 

[thefit]

I'm still waiting for those damn 14.1 drivers

 

[TAJ]

We've known this for a while.
What I didn't consider before and has been shown in benchmarks is that if you have massive amounts of GPU power (like quad Titan) you can become CPU-limited even with a top-of-the-line CPU and Mantle can help a lot again.
EDIT: beaten

 

[Karak]

Hmm. Aren't AMD cpu's a bit slower than Intel. If so it seems like this sort of makes sense. Like a 1-2 punch from AMD.

 

[Hugh Buelow]

They did say it was to reduce the overhead of the graphics library... it makes sense.

I wonder if the shader language is different from glsl and hlsl.

 

[Maninthemirror]

does this require specific hardware revisions or will it applicable to proprietary designs like consoles

 

[Instro]

A massive reduction in CPU dependent situations, which to be fair is almost never on a gaming rig. Still, even less reasons to buy an i7 for gaming now, at least until games with a lot more simulation come out.

Slight average fps improvements at GPU limited scenaries might not tell the whole story. Mantle is supposed to reduce lag spikes and micro-stuttering due to improved sheduling, e.g. no random shader recompilation lags. I look forward to seeing FCAT frame times (from techreport or otherwise).

Edit: And DICE showed exactly that: (frame times in ms, lower/less variation is better)
low: AMD A10-7850K (‘Kaveri’ APU), 4 cores @ 3.7 GHz

mid: AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz, AMD Radeon 7970 3 GB

multi-GPU: Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz, 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB

Edit2: Fixed gifs, added info

This was fairly significant.

 

[stryke]

Considering the fact that this website has previously written an article with misterxmedia being the source, I don't think they really have a technical grasp as to what Mantle was about in the first place, or anything else for that matter.

 

[slapnuts]

Im just letdown because from everything i was reading and hearing was that "everybody" would greatly benefit from this but maybe its best to wait until they iron things out..things seem a bit rough and confusing at the moment here but man they were really making it seem like everyone would be seeing a huge leap in performance..not just AMD but just about every PC site had articles on stating this.

Oh well...maybe even those of us with decent gaming rigs will see nice gains later on down the road. Im getting way too many conflicting reports right now...

 

[Karak]

Considering the fact that this website has previously written an article with misterxmedia being the source, I don't think they really have a technical grasp as to what Mantle was about in the first place, or anything else for that matter.

What about the other websites with the same information? And AMD's own tests and the other thread about this same thing?

 

[artist]

Considering the fact that this website has previously written an article with misterxmedia being the source, I don't think they really have a technical grasp as to what Mantle was about in the first place, or anything else for that matter.

Nah, I think this is their masterpiece;

http://wccftech.com/30fps-vs-60fps-30fps-better-story-telling-games/

It's time GAF banned that site.

What about the other websites with the same information? And AMD's own tests and the other thread about this same thing?

Interpretation.

 

[iamshadowlark]

There's already 2-3 threads about this. Also the title is not that accurate.

The bulk of the impact is with CPU limited scenarios yes, but there have been profound increases in the mid-to-low end GPUs as well.

 

[Karak]

Nah, I think this is their masterpiece;

http://wccftech.com/30fps-vs-60fps-30fps-better-story-telling-games/

It's time GAF banned that site.


Interpretation.

Bladder control.

There's already 2-3 threads about this. Also the title is not that accurate.

The bulk of the impact is with CPU limited scenarios yes, but there have been profound increases in the mid-to-low end GPUs as well.

3 as of now. But hey important and interesting stuff actually. Makes a steam machine maybe more interesting. Well for Mantle titles.

 

[artist]

Bladder control.

Osmotic diarrhea.

 

[stryke]

Nah, I think this is their masterpiece;

http://wccftech.com/30fps-vs-60fps-30fps-better-story-telling-games/

It's time GAF banned that site.


Interpretation.

Christ I had forgotten about that...that was an excruciating read.

 

[dragonbane]

I have a 7970 and a pretty old Intel CPU I wasn't able to upgrade yet. Mantle won't do anything to help me out in CPU limited cases right? Only on AMD CPUs?

 

[Karak]

Osmotic diarrhea.

Hahahaha. Nasty.

 

[mercenar1e]

so this doesn't work on Intel systems with nvidia cards?

 

[Loofy]

So what are we talking here.. Will an AMD 8320 be able to match low to mid end i5s?

 

[viveks86]

Nah, I think this is their masterpiece;

http://wccftech.com/30fps-vs-60fps-30fps-better-story-telling-games/

It's time GAF banned that site.


Interpretation.

Oh! Yuck! I had no idea! So you disagree with their conclusion?

However if you are already the owner of a well rounded rig, Mantle wont bring any drastic change.

 

[VisceralBowl]

I have a 7970 and a pretty old Intel CPU I wasn't able to upgrade yet. Mantle won't do anything to help me out in CPU limited cases right? Only on AMD CPUs?

I don't think it is limited to AMD CPUs, just GPUs. One of the Dice comparisons was using an Intel processor.

 

[Ricerocket]

I have a 7970 and a pretty old Intel CPU I wasn't able to upgrade yet. Mantle won't do anything to help me out in CPU limited cases right? Only on AMD CPUs?

This will help you quite a bit actually. The requirement is a AMD GCN card.

 

[Karak]

Correct it is not limited to AMD CPU's at all. AMD is just known to have slightly lesser proc's so from AMD's standpoint its a good 1-2 punch. But it will help Intel stuff as well.
I would love to see a good cheap AMD proc and this once the drivers are done up and tighter. It could make a very lethal cheap combo for those titles that support it.

 

[FourMyle]

So much for all that hype and people saying this was their most expected tech of the year...

 

[MrCunningham]

Nah, I think this is their masterpiece;

http://wccftech.com/30fps-vs-60fps-30fps-better-story-telling-games/

It's time GAF banned that site.


Interpretation.

2D gaming has no cinematic experiences, confirmed? Also, the Mantle update seems pretty substantial, shame I only have an NVidia GTX660.

 

[artist]

This will help you quite a bit actually. The requirement is a AMD GCN card.

But he has to note that his Intel processor is probably not going to benefit as much, since it wasnt holding his GPU back, as much as an AMD CPU would ..

 

[iamshadowlark]

So much for all that hype and people saying this was their most expected tech of the year...

I don't see how it isn't. There's far more people who will benefit from this than those who won't.

3 as of now. But hey important and interesting stuff actually. Makes a steam machine maybe more interesting. Well for Mantle titles.

It is. The Crossfire results look very promising as well.

 

[MrXavier]

I was under the impression everyone knew this. I knew this from the very beginning, did anyone else watch the Mantle APU13 presentation?

Right from the beginning they pointed out the drawbacks of increased overhead of DirectX when communicating to the GPU using the CPU.

In my case, I have a fairly old I7 920 that I've overclocked but has served me well since 2009. I've only upgraded my GPU and nowdays I'm hitting a CPU bottleneck especially in Battlefield 4 (my CPU is constantly 100%).

I'm sure in my case I'll have performance improvements, I should probably post a comparison once the 7970 is supported by AMD's drivers.

 

[Demon Ice]

Unsurprised. This is what low level APIs are for. Efficiency. DX11 is bloated, Mantle frees up wasted CPU cycles.


BTW this will have plenty of benefit for the high end as well. Dual GPU set ups in AMD's benchmark saw a massive improvement, and they were running an extremely high end processor.

 

[Rambotito]

I want to see how this affects the new Kaveri APUs. If it's 10% or more better performance then I am in.

 

[Karak]

I was under the impression everyone knew this. I knew this from the very beginning, did anyone else watch the Mantle APU13 presentation?

Right from the beginning they pointed out the drawbacks of increased overhead of DirectX when communicating to the GPU using the CPU.

In my case, I have a fairly old I7 920 that I've overclocked but has served me well since 2009. I've only upgraded my GPU and nowdays I'm hitting a CPU bottleneck especially in Battlefield 4 (my CPU is constantly 100%).

I'm sure in my case I'll have performance improvements, I should probably post a comparison once the 7970 is supported by AMD's drivers.

That is mine as well. CPU. Got mine to 4.2 and not really seeing those issues yet. But I am only running a 670gtx so I haven't hit a true issue so far. Love that little CPU man. What a beast.
I would be very interested to see what an overclocked i7920 saw from this because it may be "somewhat" CPU bound but man...I don't know if you would see much at all. It will be interesting.

 

[TheD]

Unsurprised. This is what low level APIs are for. Efficiency. DX11 is bloated, Mantle frees up wasted CPU cycles.


BTW this will have plenty of benefit for the high end as well. Dual GPU set ups in AMD's benchmark saw a massive improvement, and they were running an extremely high end processor.

At 1080P.

 

[Naminator]

Considering the fact that this website has previously written an article with misterxmedia being the source, I don't think they really have a technical grasp as to what Mantle was about in the first place, or anything else for that matter.

Yes, because everyone from the very start was under this exact impression that Mantle pretty much only benefits the low-mid range CPUs when they are paired up with high-end graphic cards.

Yep, thats how everyone saw it from the very begging.

 

[Perkel]

sensationalist title from sensationalist site.

 

[MrXavier]

That is mine as well. CPU. Got mine to 4.2 and not really seeing those issues yet. But I am only running a 670gtx so I haven't hit a true issue so far. Love that little CPU man. What a beast.
I would be very interested to see what an overclocked i7920 saw from this because it may be "somewhat" CPU bound but man...I don't know if you would see much at all. It will be interesting.

I had to disable Hyper Threading once I took mine over 3.8 because it would crash running prime and it required an insane voltage bump to stabalize. At the moment I'm running it at 4.0 without hyper threading

 

[Minion101]

Kinda lame.

 

[TheD]

The title of the article in the OP is close to the title of this article http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...s-actually-for-boosting-low-end-cpus-not-gpus

 

[Karak]

I had to disable Hyper Threading once I took mine over 3.8 because it would crash running prime and it required an insane voltage bump to stabalize. At the moment I'm running it at 4.0 without hyper threading

Oh gotcha mine is still running HT. I did need a good self contained water cooler to hit 4+ but I think that is fairly expected. Really great to hit 4.0 without water which many do. Great little chip.

 

[Codeblew]

I thought it was always about CPU. Reducing API calls by going straight to the GPU driver and bypassing the directx layer.

The more you free up the CPU, the more GPU instructions it can make.

 

[dragonbane]

This will help you quite a bit actually. The requirement is a AMD GCN card.

Well that's fucking great news then. I'm still rocking my Q6600 and I'm pretty much always CPU limited lol
Thanks!

 

[MrXavier]

Oh gotcha mine is still running HT. I did need a good self contained water cooler to hit 4+ but I think that is fairly expected. Really great to hit 4.0 without water which many do. Great little chip.

I'm still running on air but with an aftermarket cooler that's worth every penny. I'm using a coolermaster Hyper 212, this thing is a beast in exchange for having a giant heatsink in your case.

Hyper threading may be playing a part in my CPU bottleneck but I tested other recent games and having it on/off made no difference.

 

[artist]

The title of the article in the OP is close to the title of this article http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...s-actually-for-boosting-low-end-cpus-not-gpus

So besides ass-storm sources and hilarious theory "article" they also plagiarize? Perfect.

 

[AJLma]

Do we really know whether or not our current setups are going to be CPU or GPU bound?

Something like this hasn't existed before for me to test, so I have no idea how I would know if my i7 3770 is bottlenecking my 7970 or not across every game that I own. I'm not seeing how people are drawing conclusions about "well rounded systems" gaining no performance and such. Especially when DICE is claiming 25% increases in what could be considered a "well-rounded" system.

Not to mention the increase in performance comes mostly from improvements in Frametime latency. Even if the FPS boost isn't huge, playing games on Mantle is going to be smooth as butter.

At 1080P.

Why the hell do people keep saying this. A jump from 78FPS to 121FPS is enormous, even at 1080p.

 

[viveks86]

The title of the article in the OP is close to the title of this article http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...s-actually-for-boosting-low-end-cpus-not-gpus

Thanks! Updated the OP.

 

[TheD]

Why the hell do people keep saying this. A jump from 78FPS to 121FPS is enormous, even at 1080p.

Because it is running at only 1080P with two R9 290Xs!
Great for 120Hz, not so much for the other use cases of 2 really high end cards (like multi monitor or 1600P).