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[Durante]

Why is it not a bottleneck? Care to elaborate?

He didn't say it's not a bottleneck, he said it's less of a bottleneck than generally assumed. And, particularly in a graphics context, this is true.

Did you do these benchmarks or can you give me a link? Because I don't know of a single AMD processor that has 8 Jaguar cores. How can you benchmark the multithreading performance of 8 Jaguars if you can't even buy such a CPU?

Easy: you double the performance of the 4 core Jaguars. That's in fact the upper ceiling of 8 core Jaguar performance (unless you believe they'll exhibit superlinear parallel scaling?), and it's still pitiful compared to Intel's desktop quad-cores.

But I'm not really interested in the whole console versus PC performance discussion anymore, with real numbers and real information about "next-gen" games showing up the facts speak for themselves.

 

[mrklaw]

Why is it not a bottleneck? Care to elaborate?

in current streaming engines at least, you'd use the VRAM for what is needed to be drawn right now (textures etc), and then use main memory for a big cache, and pass textures over the bus as you need them. So you only need to update unique textures (a lot will be common) as you move through the world, which doesn't need huge bandwidth

for vertices, PCIE shouldn't be a bottleneck anyway

 

[Daedardus]

Neither am I. But I just want people to look at the whole package instead of grumbling about single parts:.

It will probably be quite efficient power per watt wise. But when a single GPU draws 250+ watts, you know consoles can never reach that performance wise.

But we are getting offtopic again . I wonder if the October launch won't just be a paper launch. I don't want shortages until January 2014.

 

[MrCunningham]

Why isn't 8XXX a desirable number?
What happens after 9XXX?
What happens when AMD runs out of island chains?

So many questions left unanswered.

1. From what I can gather, it kind of goes like this...

The latest 9000 series line from AMD saw a bit of a delay this year. and this kind of made PC manufactures like Dell, HP, Asus a little anxious. So to tide these companies over, AMD released their bogus 8000 series line, which is a rebranded 7000 series. This basically allows companies like Dell to release new PC's for 2013 with higher numbers on the box. Which dupes unsuspecting customers into thinking that that the latest Dell with a Haswell CPU and AMD 8850 is a better system over last years Ivy Bridge 7850 machine.

Though I might be wrong here, though I have a feeling that I'm not. But yeah, this pushed AMD to rename the 8000 series to 9000.

2. I guess they will just have to reset the odometer XX1000 ?

3. switch naming scheme to continents?

 

[Durante]

DirectX kills your CPU performance on PCs

Since you asked TheD for a source on his rather uncontroversial statements about performance, I'm going to do the same thing here. Please provide a source which demonstrates how DirectX (a modern version of DirectX -- i.e. 11+) "kills" your CPU performance on PCs. Particularly if you use it correctly, that is, not storing and restoring state blocks thousands of times per frame.

 

[maabus1999]

Neither am I. But I just want you, people to look at the whole package instead of grumbling about single parts:

DirectX kills your CPU performance on PCs, so it's extremely hard to compare a console CPU with a PC CPU. The Jaguars will perform much, much better in a console environment. The PS4 GPU is also heavily modified for GPGPU. Everything Sony changed has influence on the GPGPU performance and that's the point where the lack of PCIe comes into play.

Console API + plenty x86 cores + GPGPU optimized GPU + heterogneneous SoC = what devs can utilize for compute. This is not 8 Jaguars + DirectX and that's why it won't perform like 8 Jaguars + DirectX.

You are well overestimating what 399 is going to get you, especially since it isn't being sold at a loss. It will be a good gaming machine granted but not some holy Grail... Unless this is a Cell 2.0 argument.

 

[maabus1999]

I'm not. All I'm saying is that 8 slow cores is a better solution for a games console than 4 fast cores.

So my future 8 core smartphone will shit over my computer CPU cycle wise. Good to know.

 

[TheD]

Since you asked TheD for a source on his rather uncontroversial statements about performance, I'm going to do the same thing here. Please provide a source which demonstrates how DirectX (a modern version of DirectX -- i.e. 11+) "kills" your CPU performance on PCs. Particularly if you use it correctly, that is, not storing and restoring state blocks thousands of times per frame.

Yeah, I don't see how 5 to 7 % (Measured by myself in Crysis 3 and PS2) of CPU load on a quad core i5 counts as killing performance.

Well, that's what you did in console threads as well. Please don't act the innocent.

I have never went into a console thread just to do a drive by troll of what upgrades in am doing on my PC and how much money I am spending for it!
Grow up.

 

[Foxyone]

I wonder if next year's 880 and ??970 are going to be more powerful than a single titan.

I'd guess the 870 would be Titan-level, while the 880 would be a decent amount stronger. 3000 or so CUDA cores would be nice because then it would reach around 6 TFLOPs.

 

[SparkTR]

I'd guess the 870 would be Titan-level, while the 880 would be a decent amount stronger. 3000 or so CUDA cores would be nice because then it would reach around 6 TFLOPs.

That would be insane.

 

[Dictator93]

I'd guess the 870 would be Titan-level, while the 880 would be a decent amount stronger. 3000 or so CUDA cores would be nice because then it would reach around 6 TFLOPs.

I would actually assume that the next GPus from Nvidia will be based on Maxwell right?

That would have to be one cut down core for its high range card to only be 6TF. I would expect 50% more powerful than titan for the highest card (at worst).

I'm not. All I'm saying is that 8 slow cores is a better solution for a games console than 4 fast cores.

I will healthily disagree with this statement. I would way rather have the stronger less cored processor... not every piece of game code lends itself so easily to being paralleled.

 

[maabus1999]

I would actually assume that the next GPus from Nvidia will be based on Maxwell right?

That would have to be one cut down core for its high range card to only be 6TF. I would expect 50% more powerful than titan for the highest card (at worst).

Is maxwell still early 2014? Haven't looked lately.

 

[Nachtmaer]

Is maxwell still early 2014? Haven't looked lately.

If nVidia are staying on 28nm like AMD are, then Maxwell might see a release in early 2014. If they are keeping it for 20nm, it'll be late 2014.

 

[Foxyone]

I would actually assume that the next GPus from Nvidia will be based on Maxwell right?

That would have to be one cut down core for its high range card to only be 6TF. I would expect 50% more powerful than titan for the highest card (at worst).

I would have guessed that the jump from 680 to 880 itself would be roughly a doubling in performance, so about 3072 CUDA cores, or about the same jump from the 680 to 780 (30% - 35% stronger for 780 to 880). It would be nice to be wrong and end up with a stronger card though.

 

[chaosblade]

It actually isn't. It's the first part of AMD's 'tick-tock' strategy. GCN 2.0 on 28 nm is the 'tick', shrinking it to 20 nm next year is the 'tock'. Hey, it worked for Intel...

That's kind of dumb if AMD is actually trying that. Pretty sure the only reason it works for Intel is because they run their own fabs. AMD is stuck working with whatever TSMC/Global Foundries gives them.

If nVidia are staying on 28nm like AMD are, then Maxwell might see a release in early 2014. If they are keeping it for 20nm, it'll be late 2014.

As far as I've seen Maxwell and Pirate Islands are both supposed to be on 20nm.

 

[Felix Lighter]

I'm planning to wait for the 880 but I hope AMD releases a good competitive line.

 

[Future PhaZe]

I would actually assume that the next GPus from Nvidia will be based on Maxwell right?

That would have to be one cut down core for its high range card to only be 6TF. I would expect 50% more powerful than titan for the highest card (at worst).

 

[Perkel]

Better question is when will be next downsize after 20nm as i am aware 10-12nm is probably max we can do after that there won't be any more scaling down things we will need to change material.

And with each downsize % go up. If we for example downsize from 20 to 10 this is 50% same as 40 to 20 or 10 to 5 or 2 to 1.

 

[maabus1999]

Better question is when will be next downsize after 20nm as i am aware 10-12nm is probably max we can do after that there won't be any more scaling down things we will need to change material.

And with each downsize % go up. If we for example downsize from 20 to 10 this is 50% same as 40 to 20 or 10 to 5 or 2 to 1.

Quantum chips baby! Well, maybe by 2030...

 

[Nikodemos]

Better question is when will be next downsize after 20nm as i am aware 10-12nm is probably max we can do after that there won't be any more scaling down things we will need to change material.

IIRC Intel is already having some serious issues at 14 nm.

 

[SneakyStephan]

That would be insane.

Not really, as time moves on so does gpu power.

That ridiculous 'titan' name and the stupid price have really skewed people's perspective of the performance...
The hd4890 was a monster card 4 years ago, it's now in the entry level performance (~gtx 650ti) bracket.

gk110 was supposed to release 1.5 years ago but got pushed back because amd didn't have any competing gpus so technically 'titan' is already 1.5 years old.


In another 2-2.5 years geforce titan performance will be relegated to the entry level bracket all the same. If nvidia is to be believed (which they aren't but w/e ) by then we'll have gpus with over 1000GB/sec memory bandwidth (288GB/sec in titan) , and just like how half life 2 once brought our pcs to their knees and we now run it at 300+ fps, we'll do the same for crysis 3 in a few years.

 

[SparkTR]

Not really, as time moves on so does gpu power.

That ridiculous 'titan' name and the stupid price have really skewed people's perspective of the performance...

I guess, but as a layman a 6TF card at that product range this early in the generation sounds absolutely insane to me.

 

[Lime]

My trusty 6950 is still doin' work, and I'll probably jump to Nvidia's 860 next year or so. But I sincerely hope they put on 3-4GB of vram on the coming series.

 

[Perkel]

Quantum chips baby! Well, maybe by 2030...

Quantum Computers in way you think about them won't be ever able to speed things up. QC are not the answer for general processing. QC are amazing for some types of calculations but for normal work like today CPU do are slow or simply their advantages can't be used.

Though scaling power in them is completely mental. Because each new atom or whatever it is doing all work things scale geometrically instead of linearly like in normal CPUs.

 

[maabus1999]

Quantum Computers in way you think about them won't be ever able to speed things up. QC are not the answer for general processing. QC are amazing for some types of calculations but for normal work like today CPU do are slow or simply their advantages can't be used.

Well most of the parts to enhance the processing capability to QC are still in R&D, that is why I said 2030

You can't go smaller than 14 nm, at least anywhere close using our current technology, due to quantum effects occurring at that level that disrupt normal chip design. Heck, it is probably one reason Intel is having issues now.

So, at least for CPU calculations, quantum does look like a possible path.

 

[Brofist]

My trusty 6950 is still doin' work, and I'll probably jump to Nvidia's 860 next year or so. But I sincerely hope they put on 3-4GB of vram on the coming series.

7 series cards have 4GB versions already.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

So, I'm currently using a 5850 happily, but I'm getting the urge to build a new rig sometime in the next 6 months. I'm reading about these 9000-series cards, but when it comes to buying a new GPU, I'm a bit torn and I have a few questions:

1. I found myself lusting after PhysX features in games. Are AMD cards still left out in the cold on this?

2. Are game developers still using PhysX, or is it irrelevant at this point and shouldn't influence my decision?

Thanks!

 

[El Sabroso]

So, I'm currently using a 5850 happily, but I'm getting the urge to build a new rig sometime in the next 6 months. I'm reading about these 9000-series cards, but when it comes to buying a new GPU, I'm a bit torn and I have a few questions:

1. I found myself lusting after PhysX features in games. Are AMD cards still left out in the cold on this?

2. Are game developers still using PhysX, or is it irrelevant at this point and shouldn't influence my decision?

Thanks!

1.- Yes

2.- just a few, Planetside 2 was one of the most recent, Deadpool game has the logo but i never saw any PhysX use

 

[-Silver-]

Still got a stock 4850 512MB single slot card. Fuck, I could be browsing the web but it's still at 80 degrees C. It's about time I upgraded to something more powerful and cooler.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

2.- just a few, Planetside 2 was one of the most recent, Deadpool game has the logo but i never saw any PhysX use

Do you think that both consoles using AMD will further marginalize PhysX? Or will Nvidia pay some devs to incorporate it into the PC versions?

What about 3D TV support? I've read that Nvidia has a solution for this, does AMD have this as well?

 

[slicedmass]

Is there any mention of GDDR6 usage?

 

[derder]

Still got a stock 4850 512MB single slot card. Fuck, I could be browsing the web but it's still at 80 degrees C. It's about time I upgraded to something more powerful and cooler.

yeah.... you're mind is about to be blown.

 

[Lime]

Still got a stock 4850 512MB single slot card. Fuck, I could be browsing the web but it's still at 80 degrees C. It's about time I upgraded to something more powerful and cooler.

Your situation is like abstaining from a sexual orgasm for several years. Be prepared...

 

[MXRider]

This is exactly what I came to this thread for.

 

[FACE]

Maswell looks to be 28nm now.

Wait, what? FUUUUUUCK!

 

[DieH@rd]

Maswell looks to be 28nm now.

700mm2 GPU incoming
/stupid Nvidia move #9001

 

[El Sabroso]

Do you think that both consoles using AMD will further marginalize PhysX? Or will Nvidia pay some devs to incorporate it into the PC versions?

What about 3D TV support? I've read that Nvidia has a solution for this, does AMD have this as well?

If they want to still push PhysX I think they will be pushing it in Batman Arkham Origins, I'm still wondering if they will push it since there are new ways to get more effects like BF4 has shown in videos

As for 3D support in AMD there is AMD 3D Vision, never used it since I don't have a 3D monitor but my previous HD 6850 has it.

 

[Binabik15]

I wanted a Radeon 8500 to come full circle back to my first own and self-built pc. The next card I had was a 9800 something (XT?), so make that happen instead, AMD.

 

[Akuun]

Still got a stock 4850 512MB single slot card. Fuck, I could be browsing the web but it's still at 80 degrees C. It's about time I upgraded to something more powerful and cooler.

I recently moved from a 4870 to a 7950. Feels good man (but not as huge as my previous jump from like.. a radeon 8500 to the 4870)

Honestly, a 4850 is still pretty competent and can probably play most current games playably at low-mid settings.

But yes, upgrading will probably let you max settings, and double/triple your current framerates to boot.

 

[michaelius]

4850 isn't that much slower than todays 7750 cards but still jump from it to something like 7950 would be huge

 

[Felix Lighter]

I wanted a Radeon 8500 to come full circle back to my first own and self-built pc. The next card I had was a 9800 something (XT?), so make that happen instead, AMD.

They were so anxious to bring back the glory of the 9700 Pro that they skipped the 8000 desktop series.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Still rocking a core 2 duo + 260M, probably going to snag a deal on a 6xx series + haswell or ivy bridge model on black friday.

That should hold me over for a few years.

 

[x3sphere]

Who cares about Titan, factory OC'd 780s already match or surpass Titan for more than $300 less. Needing 6GB VRAM is a very niche case, and you'd be hard pressed to run anything that actually uses that much without resorting to SLI.

What I'm saying is, if AMD is looking to top 780 it will also top Titan. Otherwise, we'll get a card that costs considerably less than 780 but is also slower or just as fast.

 

[joesiv]

They were so anxious to bring back the glory of the 9700 Pro that they skipped the 8000 desktop series.

Those were good days! Then I learnt my lesson and never spent that much on a video card again

 

[ss_lemonade]

just like how half life 2 once brought our pcs to their knees and we now run it at 300+ fps, we'll do the same for crysis 3 in a few years.

We gotta run Crysis 1 at 300+ fps first

 

[mephixto]

Better question is when will be next downsize after 20nm as i am aware 10-12nm is probably max we can do after that there won't be any more scaling down things we will need to change material.

And with each downsize % go up. If we for example downsize from 20 to 10 this is 50% same as 40 to 20 or 10 to 5 or 2 to 1.

Nvidia's Volta?....2016.

We gotta run Crysis 1 at 300+ fps first

Nahh that poor optimized Cryengine will always run badly even on 30 sli titans

/jk

 

[LCGeek]

We gotta run Crysis 1 at 300+ fps first

It's so unoptimized it will be sometime before it gets to that. 3 is and 2 in some parts are easily as good as the first and better in some ways so it's fair way to gauge cards.

As for the main news fuck yes, been waiting to ditch this 560 I've been using that really can't muster 120fps for new titles even with less settings.

 

[mkenyon]

I would actually assume that the next GPus from Nvidia will be based on Maxwell right?

That would have to be one cut down core for its high range card to only be 6TF. I would expect 50% more powerful than titan for the highest card (at worst).

Which they will sell as a Tesla card, making us wait with baited breath for a year until they finally decide to bring it over to us lowly consumers.

 

[artist]

700mm2 GPU incoming
/stupid Nvidia move #9001

Probably not.

Suppose the GM104 (Maxwell equivalent of GK104) is moved to 28nm. It will probably be similar to Titan's size with newer arch/features/better performance/efficiency etc.

Then once the 20nm node is up and running the big mamma hits - the GM110 (Maxwell equivalent of the Titan). The GM104 gets a die-shrink and prices get more fluid.

This strategy makes perfect sense from Nvidia pov.

 

[maneil99]

Um, is this your guys first time in PC Gaming or what, a chip shrink will not bring 50% improvements, seriously, some of you guys are as dull as a butter knife at times


http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_680/27.html

680 vs 580(Kepler vs Fermi) was 25-30% improvment
880 vs 780 will be about the same, less if you compare it to a Titan ( Assuming its 20mm Maxwell )

As for AMD there is NO way it will outperform a Titan/780 unless its 20mm or they increase the size, it may beat it in AMD games but you won't see a flat win across the board