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Americans: Too Fat to Fight

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Trent Strong said:
So you're saying that if I eat 1000 calories of sugary food a day, and burn 3000 a day through exercise, that I'll still get fat? Of course not. "Regardless of the # of calories you eat" can't possibly be correct.
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No, I'm saying that you won't.

The body will store 40-50% of those calories from sugar as fat, and they won't be accessible to the body until insulin lowers about 4-5 hours after consumption. Between hour 1 after and hours 4-5, your body severely reduce metabolism by reducing circulation and body heat to non-essential parts of the body, create mental fatigue, and make you crazy hungry.

If by pure brute force you exercise anyway, and consume the sugar throughout the day, you will gain fat, lose muscle (body needs protein for repair), and feel like shit. They did this in the 1950s and 1960s.
 
Ether_Snake said:
Oh yeah I'm sure Americans are fooling themselves by following the food pyramid recommendations! That must be it!

Americans are fat because they like cheap and fast food, ready to eat when you open the box.
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The low fat craze is still around. Still tons of low fat, high carb foods all over the place. Jared the overweight subway guy still counting calories and eating low fat.


Which of the following could you consume in one sitting:

A. A bucket of popcorn with 2000+ calories.
B. A 2000 calorie steak by itself.

A. 400 calories of orange juice.
B. 5 oranges totaling 400 calories.




Which is a healthier breakfast:
A. Eggs, sausage.
B. Orange juice, AHA approved cheerios, and a banana.

Science infers A, the media and conventional wisdom says B (with the last set).

I'll dig up some figures showing the rise of carbohydrate intake from the 1970s to present. They have increased.
 
Is rice high in carbs? Because I've spent a considerable amount of time in Asia, and these people eat a ton of rice. They don't seem to have much trouble staying thin.

Also, don't eggs come with a shit-ton of cholesterol?
 
Puddles said:
Is rice high in carbs? Because I've spent a considerable amount of time in Asia, and these people eat a ton of rice. They don't seem to have much trouble staying thin.

Also, don't eggs come with a shit-ton of cholesterol?
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Rice has a ton of carbs. But Asian diets tend to be low in sugar. That's what kills us in the west.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Asia is the surest argument against teh_pwn's argument. The diet is rice heavy and shit tons of fruits and veggies.
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More like fermented soy, brown rice, vegetables, sea vegetables, and fish.

Not cereal, not fruit sugar extract ("juice"), not flour, not pasta, not potatoes, not bread.


I can't find the graph on sugar consumption, it's in one of Gary Taube's presentations. Watch this presentation if you believe in calories in, calories out, and the America's uncontrollable mental disorder of just eating too much and not running enough marathons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIGV9VOOtew
 
rhfb said:
But carbs are good :( I couldn't imagine not eating a hot bowl of oatmeal with some fruit for breakfast :(
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People are different. Some handle carbs better than others, some handle protein better than others. The general rules still apply but there is a good amount of variance between individuals.

Anyways, that breakfast you listed has a lot of fiber, so I imagine that it wouldn't have a huge effect on insulin levels. Really the bottom line here is to pay attention to your body. If the meal you ate gives you energy and satisfies your hunger for hours to come then it was a good meal! Keep on eating it!
 
If I eat eggs every day for breakfast, is that going to build up dangerous levels of cholesterol after awhile?

I could stand to lose 5-10 pounds. I'd be willing to move away from carbs to do this. But breakfast would be tough.
 
Puddles said:
Is rice high in carbs? Because I've spent a considerable amount of time in Asia, and these people eat a ton of rice. They don't seem to have much trouble staying thin.

Also, don't eggs come with a shit-ton of cholesterol?
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You're referring the Ancel Key's lipid hypothesis from the 1950s. It's outdated and disproven.

Basically the idea is:
Eat saturated fat->Increase cholesterol->.....->plaque on arteries magically forms.

We've known for over 20 years that heart disease is caused by high triglycerides. These are created when there's too much blood sugar in the blood from sugary/starchy foods, and it's sent to the liver to be converted to triglycerides to be stored as fat by insulin.

The LDL lipoprotein transporter, which has a shell that is made of cholesterol but contains triglycerides as cargo, changes composition allowing it to become very small and dense. It has a tendency to oxidize and build plaque on arteries.

Cholesterol is an essential raw material for the body to heal things, and create hormones, and actually tends to make LDL large and fluffy, and tends not to oxidize.

The only reason why doctors still measure LDL and HDL, is because the HDL to LDL ratio loosely correlates to high triglycerides. Many years ago that's all they could measure. Low LDL and HDL also is a cause of depression.

Some science:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/62/2/478S

This says that high fat diets make LDL large, fluffy. High carb diets make LDL small and dense.


http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/260/13/1917

This says that that small dense LDL triples the risk of heart attack.
 
Puddles said:
If I eat eggs every day for breakfast, is that going to build up dangerous levels of cholesterol after awhile?

I could stand to lose 5-10 pounds. I'd be willing to move away from carbs to do this. But breakfast would be tough.
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No - eggs being a boogey man evil food is a relic of the 70s and 80s.
 
Puddles said:
If I eat eggs every day for breakfast, is that going to build up dangerous levels of cholesterol after awhile?

I could stand to lose 5-10 pounds. I'd be willing to move away from carbs to do this. But breakfast would be tough.
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Eggs increasing your cholesterol is a myth that never had any scientific backing. Eating dietary cholesterol doesn't raise your serum cholesterol. I've eaten obscene amounts of eggs over the past few years and by cholesterol level is fine.
 
Trent Strong said:
So you're saying that if I eat 1000 calories of sugary food a day, and burn 3000 a day through exercise, that I'll still get fat? Of course not. "Regardless of the # of calories you eat" can't possibly be correct.
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Your example is bit extreme isn't it? 3000 calories being burned is pretty crazy, and I'll be surprised the person doesn't faint with only a 1000 calorie intake with that going on.
 
This will not be a problem in five years when all military airplanes and tanks are operated by remote control. Obese American gamers will conquer the world.
 
Konka said:
New draft dodging technique.
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Back in the day we'd give men who refused to fight white feathers to symbolise their cowardice. In the 2010s we'll give them a rag on a stick.
 
xbhaskarx said:
This will not be a problem in five years when all military airplanes and tanks are operated by remote control. Obese American gamers will conquer the world.
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Make "0 Friendly Fire Incidents" and "0 Civillians Killed" 1000-point Achievements and I think you've solved everything.
 
rhfb said:
But carbs are good :( I couldn't imagine not eating a hot bowl of oatmeal with some fruit for breakfast :(
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Oatmeal is probably okay. Natural fruit is good too (for body fat maintenance), but not the large bananas and oranges that have been designed to be extra large and sugary.

Vegetables are great.

The problem is are the heavy weights: potatoes, sugar, juice, anything made of flour, pasta, white rice, etc.

It's okay to eat some green veggies, berries and brown rice.
 
demon said:
Eggs increasing your cholesterol is a myth that never had any scientific backing. Eating dietary cholesterol doesn't raise your serum cholesterol. I've eaten obscene amounts of eggs over the past few years and by cholesterol level is fine.
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And when I don't eat eggs at all, my cholesterol goes real high. My liver cranks it out. It has probably taken years off my life. I'm taking statins now though.
 
teh_pwn said:
More like fermented soy, brown rice, vegetables, sea vegetables, and fish.

Not cereal, not fruit sugar extract ("juice"), not flour, not pasta, not potatoes, not bread.


I can't find the graph on sugar consumption, it's in one of Gary Taube's presentations. Watch this presentation if you believe in calories in, calories out, and the America's uncontrollable mental disorder of just eating too much and not running enough marathons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIGV9VOOtew
Click to expand...


If you burn more calories than you eat, then you cannot possibly gain weight. It would violate the laws of physics. You cannot change the laws of physics, Jim! I'm sure you're right that if you eat a bunch of sugary carbs all day you will feel like crap, and of course you need protein to gain muscle. But if I burn 2000 calories a day then I can eat 2000 calories a day and not gain weight, by Christ. That 2000 calories I'm burning has to come from somewhere, I'm not getting it from thin air. I know its anecdotal, but my diet is probably 90% high fructose corn syrup, and yet I'm thin. Very thin. I never gain weight.
 
teh_pwn said:
Oatmeal is probably okay. Natural fruit is good too (for body fat maintenance), but not the large bananas and oranges that have been designed to be extra large and sugary.

Vegetables are great.

The problem is are the heavy weights: potatoes, sugar, juice, anything made of flour, pasta, white rice, etc.

It's okay to eat some green veggies, berries and brown rice.
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I love me some veggies, but I would die without spuds and whole grain bread and pasta. What the hell? I eat bugger all sugar though, so maybe I'm okay.
 
teh_pwn, I think you're being myopic. There have been studies where dieters were fed an equivalent number of calories of either low-fat or low-carb diets, and the fat loss was similar. I agree that insulin plays a role, but eating a reasonable caloric intake and moving around every day will keep you from getting obese. Saying 'insulin is the only answer' flies in the face of frequent anectodal evidence.

My view has always been one of moderation. Don't eat a ton of carbs, don't eat a ton of fats, eat like our ancestors did on diets that our body is well-evolved to handle and make sure that you get some form of exercise in regularly, both resistance training and cardio/conditioning work.
 
Trent Strong said:
If you burn more calories than you eat, then you cannot possibly gain weight. It would violate the laws of physics. You cannot change the laws of physics, Jim! I'm sure you're right that if you eat a bunch of sugary carbs all day you will feel like crap, and of course you need protein to gain muscle. But if I burn 2000 calories a day then I can eat 2000 calories a day and not gain weight, by Christ. That 2000 calories I'm burning has to come from somewhere, I'm not getting it from thin air. I know its anecdotal, but my diet is probably 90% high fructose corn syrup, and yet I'm thin. Very thin. I never gain weight.
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You don't violate the laws of physics. When insulin is high, blood sugar is converted to fat, regardless of energy requirements.

Then the body increases hunger to get more energy for muscles and organs because it cannot burn fat while insulin is high. If you choose not to eat, your body will reduce metabolism to compensate, and cannibalize muscles/organs to feed essential muscles and organs.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies, you don't don't understand the equation and how the variables behave.

It is not:
deltaE = CaloriesIn - CaloriesOut

It is:

0 = CaloriesFromFood - CaloriesNeededForBaseMetabolism +/- caloriesIntoOrOutOfBodyFatRegulatedByInsulin +/- caloriesBurntOrReservedByMetabolicAdjustment

To say that fat isn't controlled by insulin is violating and raping biology. Type 1 diabetics cannot gain fat until they inject their insulin.

They have injected rats with insulin, given them less calories than needed, and they die obese with a heart muscle cannibalized. Insulin doesn't care if you need calories, it is a hormone designed to put blood glucose into muscles/organs, and then put leftovers into fat and lock them away. It is an evolutionary mechanism to store fat for between meals, famine, and sleep. Just because people constantly eat sugary food and get high levels of insulin doesn't change it's hormonal role.
 
grumble said:
teh_pwn, I think you're being myopic. There have been studies where dieters were fed an equivalent number of calories of either low-fat or low-carb diets, and the fat loss was similar. I agree that insulin plays a role, but eating a reasonable caloric intake and moving around every day will keep you from getting obese. Saying 'insulin is the only answer' flies in the face of frequent anectodal evidence.

My view has always been one of moderation. Don't eat a ton of carbs, don't eat a ton of fats, eat like our ancestors did on diets that our body is well-evolved to handle and make sure that you get some form of exercise in regularly, both resistance training and cardio/conditioning work.
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Our ancestors ate very few carbs. And I don't think they did a ton of cardio, in the "run/cycle x miles" sort of sense. But agreed on weight training and moderation in general. But if we know the medical biology of fat accumulation, then we shouldn't say "eat carbs in moderation" because that infers that there is reason to believe that there is a necessity to eat some of them. That's how moderation differs from "avoid", "limit" or "reduce intake of".

But I'm not saying that all people are fat because of the typical diet. People have varying sensitivities to insulin, and conditions that change hunger. But insulin is the only hormone that stores fat and prevents it's use as far as I know. If there are others, please correct me.
 
grumble said:
teh_pwn, I think you're being myopic. There have been studies where dieters were fed an equivalent number of calories of either low-fat or low-carb diets, and the fat loss was similar. I agree that insulin plays a role, but eating a reasonable caloric intake and moving around every day will keep you from getting obese. Saying 'insulin is the only answer' flies in the face of frequent anectodal evidence.

My view has always been one of moderation. Don't eat a ton of carbs, don't eat a ton of fats, eat like our ancestors did on diets that our body is well-evolved to handle and make sure that you get some form of exercise in regularly, both resistance training and cardio/conditioning work.
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The sugar people like him are religious about this belief. You can't reason with religion. The fundamental idea of not eating refined sugar and like products is good advice. Decrying the horrors of fruit, potatoes, and grains is just ideological nonsense unfortunately.
 
Yeah. Low-carb is a simplification, from what I can tell, but it works for the metabolically deranged (the insulin resistant, the overweight, the sedentary), which is a rapidly growing demographic. These guys simply can't handle the amount of carbohydrates they're shoveling in.

You've gotta look at what causes the derangement, and it appears to be white flour, sugar/fructose, and excess linoleic acid, especially rancid, processed industrial vegetable oils (which nearly all restaurants/packaged foods use liberally). Whenever these foods were introduced to traditional cultures eating their ancestral diets, metabolic syndrome - insulin resistance, heart disease, diabetes, etc - soon followed.

There are plenty of examples of healthy cultures eating high-carb and low-carb diets, but these diets were always low in sugar, white flour/grains/wheat, and omega-6 fats. The carbs were whole (yams, potatoes, fermented grains) and the fats were saturated/monounsaturated (animal fats, coconut, olive oil).

Americans eat a perfect storm of metabolic derangement. As someone mentioned, the farm subsidies (HFCS, corn oil, soybean oil, which are in fucking everything) definitely aren't helping.

Our ancestors ate very few carbs.

But I'm not saying that all people are fat because of the typical diet. People have varying sensitivities to insulin, and conditions that change hunger. But insulin is the only hormone that stores fat and prevents it's use as far as I know. If there are others, please correct me.
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There's something called acylation stimulation protein (ASP) that's responsible for storing dietary lipids as adipose tissue, but it's unclear how effective it is, or whether its fat storage effects are commensurate with those of insulin. Here's an interesting article on ASP.

At any rate, dietary fat and dietary glucose absolutely have different hormonal effects on the body, and while a caloric deficit is required for weight loss, I think that caloric deficit depends on many factors - not just how many calories you're eating and how many calories you're burning.
 
elrechazao said:
The sugar people like him are religious about this belief. You can't reason with religion. The fundamental idea of not eating refined sugar and like products is good advice. Decrying the horrors of fruit, potatoes, and grains is just ideological nonsense unfortunately.
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I'm the one using faith? Then show me medical literature about what regulates fat accumulation in the body, and what that hormone is created in response to.
 
teh_pwn said:
I'm the one using faith? Then show me medical literature about what regulates fat accumulation and in the body, and what that hormone is created in response to.
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Your posts on weight loss in other threads and particularly ignoring the benefits of exercise are just one example of how alarming these ideas are. In a caloric sense of what causes weight loss, nobody is disputing the science. Promoting health seems not to be one of your concerns however.
 
We need to stop fucking around. Washington needs to confiscate all foodstuffs and centralize food production, distribution and preparation.

If not, the terrorist win.
 
Tobor said:
1. Remote controlled soldier bots
2. Lazyboy
3. Fat soldier with a 360 controller
4...Victory.
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I'd love to see an armed and armored motorized scooter.

Hoveround is poised to become one of the nation's biggest defense contractors.
 
NG28 said:
Where are all of these fat people hiding? I don't see them all that often.
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I don't either, MA is a pretty healthy state overall though. Fat people exist but they aren't the norm
 
elrechazao said:
Your posts on weight loss in other threads and particularly ignoring the benefits of exercise are just one example of how alarming these ideas are. In a caloric sense of what causes weight loss, nobody is disputing the science. Promoting health seems not to be one of your concerns however.
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I'm not contesting the benefits of exercise, only that they are irrelevant long term if you eat a diet that causes chronic hunger, fat accumulation, and an increased risk of cardiovascular disease.

You're going to have to be more specific, and please respond to things that you think are promoting poor health with medical references.
 
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