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[BahamutPT]

Seems like a good thing for the sex workers themselves, which are the most important part of this.
Men and women shouldn't be put in jail for doing what they want with their own bodies, or even because someone is forcing them to do it (I guess the law may protect them, but I'm not sure it's like that everywhere).
Punish the pimps, traffickers/slavers and everyone who knowingly abuses/extorts sex workers.

 

[Log4Girlz]

How do you feel about decriminalization of weed/drugs, which possibly leads to an increase in demand?

If controlled by the government, no problem, because there won't be any increase in human abuse and slavery. I like the idea of decriminalized prostitution if regulation is fucking on point.

 

[Lambtron]

Nobody goes into that profession because they want to, and society often has little else they can realistically offer them..

Citation needed.

I am 100% pro-legalization of sex work. I have a SWOP button on my school bag. I follow a number of sex workers and sex worker activists on Twitter to keep up on issues that affect sex workers. I wrote a paper for school about how fucked up the Swedish Method is. I guess what I'm saying is that this is something important to me.

Human trafficking does happen, and is bad. But we should not conflate that with sex work. Nor should we work under the assumption that all sex workers are forced into the trade or don't want to do it. You can say "well we'll only go after the pimps and johns!" all you want but do you think that will really stop sex workers from being brutalized in raids? Feds have closed down stuff like MyRedBook and credit card companies won't allow themselves to be used on sites like Backpage which makes sex work less safe for workers. Legalization will allow sex workers to more carefully vet their clients, and it will allow them to report crimes which happen to them without fear of the authorities coming down on them.

Sex workers and sex worker advocates are thrilled with this. Melissa Gira Grant wrote a great article in The Nation about the importance of the decision that Amnesty was facing. Legalization is the best way forward, and I'm thrilled that they are supporting this. Now, let's hope the U.S. swiftly follows suit...

 

[A Link to the Past]

Nobody goes into that profession because they want to

Not being pointy, but have you talked to SWs before?

 

[Vagabundo]

In Scandinavia, Sex Workers are supposed to pay taxes, but rarely don't. Some politicians have an idea that they can make it safer for women to be prostitutes if they were operating under safer guidelines. And more like they are working in the public sector like other governmental services. To keep them safe, to make sure they abide and have the same rules and regulations. Evidently, that is also why we can't make Uber legal here. It goes against protection laws that we have. It's a weird dilemma.

Unfortunately like most of Europe, sex work is intertwined with sex trafficking which of course is illegal and there is the dilemma (for us). It's been harder and harder to see the line between a middle aged horny man, who seeks the services of a prostitute who went in by choice and is not being threatened and beaten, and someone who comes from an African or eastern European country, and is, effectively a slave. Here against her own will. fearing for her life. being physically abused. Was promised to be a model or a job. Fears for her family back home if she runs.


Sex workers here actually do serve a really important purpose. There are many people- disabled people, in hospitals, who hire the services of prostitutes. It's something very few people likes to think about, but disabled and handicapped people do have a sexuality as well. And it is in that space that, they are doing something important for these people.

There is a vacuum here- It might be utopian but I think it should be a real profession. Not specifically being a sex worker, but being a caretaker who has a level of education that can help those people who psychologically need to get off.

Sex workers will always be a profession, so punishing those people is pointless. Nobody goes into that profession because they want to, and society often has little else they can realistically offer them. It's not a good life, but taking the only thing they have, away from them is even more cruel.


They need to be protected, and it needs to keep being illegal to have sex with a sex worker who is a sex slave. I feel this is an important difference. Because they are slaves. It's even worse than in the movies.

Buying sex is illegal in Sweden. Ireland is currently trying to use this as a model for our laws.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

@ Snitch, only briefly. It's a generalization for sure, but I find it hard to think that there are some people who grow up wanting to be prostitutes. I guess I could see it for porn though?

Buying sex is illegal in Sweden. Ireland is currently trying to use this as a model for our laws.

Yes, it's illegal to buy, but not to be a prostitute in Sweden if I have understood it correctly?

 

[archnemesis]

Yes, it's illegal to buy, but not to be a prostitute in Sweden if I have understood it correctly?

Yes, that's correct. Selling sex is legal, buying is not.

 

[hobblygobbly]

It works fairly well in Germany but in Germany it's constantly regulated. If you want sex you can get it easily though, heterosexual, homosexual, etc.

However there are quite a few raids/searches on brothels checking for underage, usually those that are found are from Eastern Europe.

 

[Croatoan]

I was actually going to start a thread asking this question.

Why is prostitution illegal?

I can understand why solicitation on street sides should be illegal (for a variety of reasons). But I see no problem in the existence of brothels or prostitution via internet or done out of city limits (Similar to strip clubs in the south) as long as there is no abuse perpetrated(which can happen in various ways).

 

[A Link to the Past]

@ Snitch, only briefly. It's a generalization for sure, but I find it hard to think that there are some people who grow up wanting to be prostitutes. I guess I could see it for porn though?




Yes, it's illegal to buy, but not to be a prostitute in Sweden if I have understood it correctly?

You're making leading ideas. People don't grow up wanting to be accountants, but no one treats it in the same vein as growing up to becoming a sex worker.

 

[CTLance]

We Germans have a completely schizophrenic approach to this matter. It's completely absurd. On one hand, prostitution is legal. On the other, we have local governments going after brothels, a strong social stigma attached to the trade, and constant suspicions about human trafficking that usually lead to no real results since our laws in that regard are a bunch of half-baked patchwork bullcrap that nobody wants to touch.

Sigh. Half-assed tomfoolery. I'd love to blame this on the conservatives, but the SPD wasn't really all that useful either.


Personally, I am completely on the side of Legalization here. Legalize the profession and instate extremely strong safeguards to avoid human trafficking and abuse. I'm talking really painful punishments, unannounced on-site checkups, covert observation, stringent requirements including pre-job schooling, a license with a meaningful test (theory&practicals) and regular (mental/physical) health checks. Mandate a retirement plan and try to cut all other angles that could be abused to force them into compliance somehow.

Humans fuck. Like all animals. It's in our nature. I'd rather have that pervert down the street bump uglies with a paid professional for a couple bucks each week than catch him molesting or stalking random women out of pent-up desire. It's just sex. Let the ones in need find an outlet for their urges and protect those that make a living off it.

 

[Markster]

Actually, that man just made prostitution illegal in Canada. It wasn't, until the existing laws meant to discourage (without banning) it were struck down as unconstitutional.

 

[magnetic]

Everybody who is against making prostitution legal should consider this:

There are many disabled people who never have a reasonable shot at experiencing sex in their lifes.

There are specialized sex workers who are paid to give these people a sensual experience.

I have nothing but respect for these women (and men). It's cruel to cut off people who are at a severe disadvantage in their, well, "sexual market value" from ever being able to experience sexual moments.

(I worked with many disabled people of all types for many years, just for context.)

Not to mention that there are many non-disabled people who simply are unlucky in their search for a mate.

 

[Markster]

Actually, here's a wonderful article written in the run-up to the outright criminalization of prostitution in Canada:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...me-protection-as-prostitutes/article19043328/

Let’s assume that the Conservatives are genuinely concerned about “exploited persons” – and that, being adults, sentient in the 21st century, they have no interest in punishing a demographic merely because sex is involved in its profession.

Now, let’s remove sex from the equation (sorry) and imagine the state of affairs that would ensue were these same “protections” applied to a different but also legal trade. Let’s pick one largely practised by women who often work alone with clients, sometimes in their own homes.

Let’s get really concerned about piano teachers, who, after all, are entitled to the same protection under the law as sex workers – that is, full protection.

“But,” I hear some say, “why would a guy need professional piano lessons anyway? It disgusts me. Doesn’t he have a friend who can teach him piano?”

“No, he does not,” I might say. “Does that mean he should have no music in his life?”

Or I could tell you that perhaps he does have a musical friend but she plays only the oboe, and he thinks about pianos night and day.

Maybe he has a wife who is brilliant on the piano, but, she will confess to her friends, if she has to hear this guy bang out Fleur de Lis on her precious keyboard one more time, she’ll lose it.

“No one needs piano lessons!” I hear some of you cry. “He can teach himself!”

“But it’s seldom as much fun,” I say, “and left to his own devices, he might strain his wrist.”

 

[StayDead]

Decriminalizing of sex work sounds good on paper but isn't really feasible and will just increase those who are exploited. Decriminalize sex workers but arrest the people who request such services

Would it not be better to arrest the people exploiting them, aka the pimps and trafficers? I'd say a perfectly legal and well controllled brothel for instance with people who work there both male and women, because they want to work there could even be good for society as a whole.

I don't get how you can decriminalise sex workers yet punish the people who pay them. It's what we do in the UK now and it doesn't help anyone. There's no legal safety or legal avenues for people to get into that sort of work even if they wanted to sell the use of their body.

 

[True Savior]

This is one of those things that makes me feel like i still live in some bizarro world where sex work is a criminal activity.

 

[FStop7]

So, when will the countries around the world start doing this?

Former President Jimmy Carter sent Amnesty delegates a personal letter urging them to reject the proposal on these grounds, and feminists including Lena Dunham, Meryl Streep and Gloria Steinem signed a letter to the same effect.

Oh great.

The sexual predator disapproves.

Decriminalizing sex work is complex, to say the least, because of the human trafficking factor.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

Would it not be better to arrest the people exploiting them, aka the pimps and trafficers? I'd say a perfectly legal and well controllled brothel for instance with people who work there both male and women, because they want to work there could even be good for society as a whole.

I don't get how you can decriminalise sex workers yet punish the people who pay them. It's what we do in the UK now and it doesn't help anyone. There's no legal safety or legal avenues for people to get into that sort of work even if they wanted to sell the use of their body.

I don't know about the UK but the data we have seems to suggest it works in Sweden.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Good. The safety of sex workers has too long been ignored or brushed aside. Decriminalizing offers these women and men some measure of protection.

 

[sangreal]

when prostitution was legal in Rhode Island for 30 years, nobody noticed or cared except the police

It worked fine. You don't have to go full red light district

Pimping, streetwalking, etc were still illegal

 

[John Kowalski]

This is fantastic. And for those interested, i heartily recommend this VICE conversation thing about sex workers, it's very in depth about the matter.

 

[wonzo]

stay basic swerfs

 

[DoktorEvil]

I was actually going to start a thread asking this question.

Why is prostitution illegal?

I can understand why solicitation on street sides should be illegal (for a variety of reasons). But I see no problem in the existence of brothels or prostitution via internet or done out of city limits (Similar to strip clubs in the south) as long as there is no abuse perpetrated(which can happen in various ways).

I think part of it is because it can used as a powerful weapon against politicians.

Remember, the ancient Greeks had legal brothels. They pushed sex work as a positive boom to their society. Gigolos and prosititues had some modicum of respect.

Jesus protected Mary Magdalene, the most well known prosititute in biblical history.

I think prositution shouldve been legalized, commoditized, and regulated ages ago and the human trafficking element watched like a hawk.

 

[Brakke]

I am 100% pro-legalization of sex work. I have a SWOP button on my school bag. I follow a number of sex workers and sex worker activists on Twitter to keep up on issues that affect sex workers. I wrote a paper for school about how fucked up the Swedish Method is. I guess what I'm saying is that this is something important to me.

Would you mind dropping some quick bullet points about why the "Swedish Method" is fucked up?

 

[Mindwipe]

Would you mind dropping some quick bullet points about why the "Swedish Method" is fucked up?

1. It's used to ruin the lives of sex workers - for example, it counts renting premises to sex workers as "pimping", so landlords make sex workers homeless.

2. It doesn't work. Any suggestion it reduces demand is false. It just displaces demand - specifically in Sweden's case to Denmark's border, where trade has soared. I mean, this is obvious - prohibition never, ever, ever works in any form of life, ever. Why would it work here?

3. It makes it impossible for sex workers to report crimes against them, because it makes their client base disappear.

4. It contributes towards the continued stigma of the sex trade that kills sex workers.

Good summary - http://www.petraostergren.com/pages.aspx?r_id=40716

 

[ZackieChan]

Prsonally, I am completely on the side of Legalization here. Legalize the profession and instate extremely strong safeguards to avoid human trafficking and abuse. I'm talking really painful punishments, unannounced on-site checkups, covert observation, stringent requirements including pre-job schooling, a license with a meaningful test (theory&practicals) and regular (mental/physical) health checks. Mandate a retirement plan and try to cut all other angles that could be abused to force them into compliance somehow.
.

The problem is, if the system is too onerous, you're just going to have people skirting the laws and creating an illegal sex trade similar to today. Going to classes and taking tests? No one wants to do that.

It needs to be frictionless.

Everybody who is against making prostitution legal should consider this:

There are many disabled people who never have a reasonable shot at experiencing sex in their lifes.

There are specialized sex workers who are paid to give these people a sensual experience.

I have nothing but respect for these women (and men). It's cruel to cut off people who are at a severe disadvantage in their, well, "sexual market value" from ever being able to experience sexual moments.

(I worked with many disabled people of all types for many years, just for context.)

Not to mention that there are many non-disabled people who simply are unlucky in their search for a mate.

There have been a few gaffers who should be taking advantage of this. That and spending their last few bucks on a copy of Splatoon.

 

[kirblar]

when prostitution was legal in Rhode Island for 30 years, nobody noticed or cared except the police

It worked fine. You don't have to go full red light district

Pimping, streetwalking, etc were still illegal

When they accidentally decriminalized it again recently, rape rates fell.

 

[John Kowalski]

Would you mind dropping some quick bullet points about why the "Swedish Method" is fucked up?

IIRC in Sweden selling sex isn't illegal, but buying sex is. This is meant to, instead of criminally pursuing the sellers, pursuing instead the buyers and demand. The problem is that this still puts sex workers in contact with the police (police will, for example, still go after them to reach the buyers, so sex workers working in their homes will still have to deal with landlord who don't want to do business with them, pushing sex workers onto more dangerous places like the streets). This all under the messaging that "No, sex workers are fine, we just want to deal with the buyers", but those policies still seriously harm sex workers.

Bit late but whatevs.

 

[Reishiki]

Good.

stay basic swerfs

This. Fuck the SWERFs.

 

[Opto]

When you decriminalize sex work, this opens up sex workers being able to report if they're being exploited by slavers without themselves being punished. And it also allows them to report any johns that have been abusive.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

You're making leading ideas. People don't grow up wanting to be accountants, but no one treats it in the same vein as growing up to becoming a sex worker.

Either way, it doesn't matter. I don't think the government should go after them. It's the oldest profession in the world, and they will keep doing it as long as sex is a commodity worth paying for, and as long as there are horny men who can't get it anywhere else.

 

[Deleted member 325805]

Imagine if brothels were legal, you could just go to one after work for a beer and a blowjob, no harm, no foul. The stress would literally melt away.

 

[Kinyou]

Seems like there's a lot of criticism out there for that move.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...ts-divided-on-amnesty-decriminalisation-plan/

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...vote-to-decriminalise-sex-trade-31434434.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/se...lywood-actresses-v-Amnesty-International.html

 

[lednerg]

Just like drugs, sex work should be regulated rather than in the control of the black market. Banning it hasn't made it go away.

 

[Baki]

Hmm..

What about criminalising running brothels / pimps - - > as a way to disincentivise human trafficking.

 

[Opto]

Hmm..

What about criminalising running brothels / pimps - - > as a way to disincentivise human trafficking.

Brothels aren't exactly a bad thing. They can provide clean rooms and a sense of security for the workers, and they conduct required std tests. The negative connotation with brothels is the unfortunate fact that women there in areas where sex work is illegal, they can be held there against their will. A strictly regulated brothel where the workers can choose to their clients and have the freedom to leave can lead to success

 

[danwarb]

And how about preventing people from falling into destitution with some more good socialism, so that no one is forced into this line of work, if they don't want that?

 

[Oersted]

When you decriminalize sex work, this opens up sex workers being able to report if they're being exploited by slavers without themselves being punished. And it also allows them to report any johns that have been abusive.

It first and foremost increases demand which increases human traficking.

 

[Coriolanus]

And how about preventing people from falling into destitution with some more good socialism, so that no one is forced into this line of work, if they don't want that?

That's fine, but you're assuming that all people would want to avoid this line of work. That, as so many porn stars that took charge of their own carreers taught us, is false.

Being forced into prostitution should always remain a crime, obviously.

It first and foremost increases demand which increases human traficking.

Source?
I mean, if we expand on this from previous prohibition models, you're essentially arguing that if liquor prohibition fell, more moonshine factories would pop up.

 

[old]

Decriminalizing of sex work sounds good on paper but isn't really feasible and will just increase those who are exploited. Decriminalize sex workers but arrest the people who request such services

Not only a horrible idea, but a sexist idea as well.

 

[Oersted]

That's fine, but you're assuming that all people would want to avoid this line of work. That, as so many porn stars that took charge of their own carreers taught us, is false.

Being forced into prostitution should always remain a crime, obviously.



Source?
I mean, if we expand on this from previous prohibition models, you're essentially arguing that if liquor prohibition fell, more moonshine factories would pop up.

You are not from a country where it is legal, aren't you?

 

[Rentahamster]

It first and foremost increases demand which increases human traficking.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

If this is your source, there were some comments on Reddit that had some thoughts on it. I haven't read through the paper myself, so I don't know if it's accurate. Just some food for thought.

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/...nternational_endorses_decriminalizing/ctzxa1j

Your source references the 2012 study by Cho, Dreher and Neumayer, which has drastically over-inflated numbers because they considered all foreign sex workers as trafficked. As such, even women who immigrated willingly, and went into prostitution willingly, counted towards 'sex trafficking' numbers.

To counter, prostitution is legal in the UK, and they've also undergone one of the largest police actions against sex trafficking in a western nation, called Operation Pentameter Two, involving police across the UK, and raids on over 800 brothels. They ended with no new convictions for trafficking, but had 73 arrests for immigration breaches and 76 for unrelated charges such as drugs or driving offences.

In closing, legal prostitution might increase sex trafficking, but your source isn't the proof of this and there's also evidence that the 'epidemic' of sex trafficking isn't as extreme as you may be led to believe.

In closing, legal prostitution might increase sex trafficking, but your source isn't the proof of this

Can I add on to this? I work for a Cambodian counter-trafficking in persons organization. Cambodia is a country where there was a law against trafficking in persons prior to 2008, but it wasn't until then that there was a serious law on the suppression of human trafficking. Since 2008 the number of brothels in the country has closed, and so it's easy to see that there are less people physically locked in a room and being forced to have sex. At the same time, there is still an enormous population of bars, karaoke parlors, clubs, beer gardens, hotels, massage parlours, and homes where you can buy sexual services. If there's a continuum from "Sex for the sake of enjoyment" at one end, and "Physical coercion" at the other, there's a lot of people who have ended up somewhere in the middle in Cambodia. There's a lot of women (and some men, and some transgender folk) who are engaged in sex-work because they have no other option, and are emotionally, financially, or religiously coerced to a smaller or greater degree.

I think a decriminalization law would probably have the same effect, though I could be wrong. You would probably see less people who were clearly "pimped" in the worst sense of the word, but more people who were taken advantage of legally and within the rules. It would really interest me if someone would do an in-depth study on camgirls and see to what extent there is bullying, manipulation, and coercion towards that population. Someone get on that.

and there's also evidence that the 'epidemic' of sex trafficking isn't as extreme as you may be led to believe.

I tend to agree with this. Though there are certain communities or areas where sex-trafficking (or more often Commercial Sexual Exploitation) is rampantly happening around South-East Asia, there are other forms of trafficking that are much larger (fishing and construction, in particular, for men, Domestic work for women, bride trafficking to China, and sexual exploitation within communities to name a few) the "advertisement" for sex-trafficking seems to dominate the field.

 

[hodayathink]

Brothels aren't exactly a bad thing. They can provide clean rooms and a sense of security for the workers, and they conduct required std tests. The negative connotation with brothels is the unfortunate fact that women there in areas where sex work is illegal, they can be held there against their will. A strictly regulated brothel where the workers can choose to their clients and have the freedom to leave can lead to success

For as much as I don't like Dennis Hoff, you can look to the Bunny Ranch for a decent example of this in America. Brothels, in general, are only going to be as bad as the people running them, just like pretty much any other business.

 

[cm osi]

wat. So two consenting adults agree to have sex for money and you still think half of that business deal should be illegal?

pay taxes on it and it's okay

 

[Brakke]

1. It's used to ruin the lives of sex workers - for example, it counts renting premises to sex workers as "pimping", so landlords make sex workers homeless.

2. It doesn't work. Any suggestion it reduces demand is false. It just displaces demand - specifically in Sweden's case to Denmark's border, where trade has soared. I mean, this is obvious - prohibition never, ever, ever works in any form of life, ever. Why would it work here?

3. It makes it impossible for sex workers to report crimes against them, because it makes their client base disappear.

4. It contributes towards the continued stigma of the sex trade that kills sex workers.

Good summary - http://www.petraostergren.com/pages.aspx?r_id=40716

IIRC in Sweden selling sex isn't illegal, but buying sex is. This is meant to, instead of criminally pursuing the sellers, pursuing instead the buyers and demand. The problem is that this still puts sex workers in contact with the police (police will, for example, still go after them to reach the buyers, so sex workers working in their homes will still have to deal with landlord who don't want to do business with them, pushing sex workers onto more dangerous places like the streets). This all under the messaging that "No, sex workers are fine, we just want to deal with the buyers", but those policies still seriously harm sex workers.

Bit late but whatevs.

Ahh man. It's such a nice idea though. Bummer. Thanks.

 

[Coriolanus]

You are not from a country where it is legal, aren't you?

Guessed wrong.

 

[Bleepey]

About time. I agree that the sex workers themselves shouldn't face criminal charges but that the pimps and traffickers definitely should backed by evidence they are forcing the workers.

This.

Decriminalizing of sex work sounds good on paper but isn't really feasible and will just increase those who are exploited. Decriminalize sex workers but arrest the people who request such services

This however is horsershit. The nordic model does not protect the women it's supposed to help, suggests women have no autonomy over their own body and wastes police time.

 

[woolley]

I feel it should be partly decriminalized and heavily regulated for everyone's safety. It should be legalized in licensed brothels where the workers should be given the majority of the money they make with multiple STD test a week. Helps keep the customers safe and helps to get curb the workers from getting taken advantage of.

 

[kirblar]

And how about preventing people from falling into destitution with some more good socialism, so that no one is forced into this line of work, if they don't want that?

Agree 100% that basic income needs to be a thing.

 

[hodayathink]

Amnesty International finally fully wrote/issued their recommendation, and not only does it call for full decriminalization, it basically states that there's no real proof the Nordic model works after a full study of Norway's policies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/25/m...alling-for-decriminalizing-sex-work.html?_r=1

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/pres...-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights