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An Amazon (atheist) tribe converts the missionary
- Thread starter Gaborn
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Mercury Fred
Banned
Wow, beautiful story.
Sounds like a group of human beings that have discovered real grace. Awesome.
Sounds like a group of human beings that have discovered real grace. Awesome.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Aselith said:
So if a group of people (such as a congregation) "sense" and take guidance from "something" that is rational behavior and not superstitious nonsense?
EDIT: by "something" i mean something that cant be seen/heard/felt by everyone.. ie real
CharlieDigital
Banned
Gaborn, you failed to highlight the most important parts of this article:
This sounds awesome. Seriously, Western "marriage" is such a scam.
But they don't have marriage or funeral ceremonies. Cohabitation suffices as the wedding announcement and divorce is accomplished just as simply, though there may be more noise involved. Sexual mores are governed by common sense rather than stricture, which means that single people have sex at will while married people are more circumspect.
People are sometimes buried with their possessions, which are few, and larger people are often buried sitting "because this requires less digging." But there is no ritual for each family to follow.
"Perhaps the activity closest to ritual among the Pirahãs is their dancing. Dances bring the village together. They are often marked by promiscuity, fun, laughing, and merriment by the entire village. There are no musical instruments involved, only singing, clapping, and stomping of feet."
People are sometimes buried with their possessions, which are few, and larger people are often buried sitting "because this requires less digging." But there is no ritual for each family to follow.
"Perhaps the activity closest to ritual among the Pirahãs is their dancing. Dances bring the village together. They are often marked by promiscuity, fun, laughing, and merriment by the entire village. There are no musical instruments involved, only singing, clapping, and stomping of feet."
This sounds awesome. Seriously, Western "marriage" is such a scam.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Blader5489 said:
And there is evidence to support the existence of Jesus living here on this very earth at one time. Not so for the "spirits."
If they can actually see it and talk to it? Sure, it's rational to believe in what you can see. Eyes can be deceived as we know but it's still rational to believe your own eyes.
And you can believe and take guidance from a spirit and still be atheistic. It's only when you start worshipping it that it becomes a god and you are no longer atheistic. If you have no gods, you are literally an atheist.
Just as an example: I talk stuff over with my family sometimes before going about it and they give opinions. I don't then carve an idol to them and go sing to it every Thursday.
And you can believe and take guidance from a spirit and still be atheistic. It's only when you start worshipping it that it becomes a god and you are no longer atheistic. If you have no gods, you are literally an atheist.
Just as an example: I talk stuff over with my family sometimes before going about it and they give opinions. I don't then carve an idol to them and go sing to it every Thursday.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
wat?StoOgE said:
Probably because we know that religious language is full of metaphor, simile, outright replacement of terminology- a general lack of literal meaning. When someone says they "talk to God" they very rarely mean they literally hold a conversation with God in the sense conversation is normally understood- words conveying meaning passing from one individual to another through some sensible medium.Blader5489 said:
Because of the explicit literal-mindedness of these people as expressed in the scholarly articles on their language and culture it would be surprising if they meant they "see spirits" in such a nuanced sense. We are accepting that when they say they see spirits that's exactly what they mean. It may mean they're crazy, or subject to various chemical or neurological disorders, but it would not be religious in the same sense as Christian prayer.
There's also the point that seeing spirits and WORSHIPING them are distinct, too.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Hmm... really interesting story. I like hearing about these diverse and unique cultures. This one is especially great, as I just got back from the Amazon on Sunday. While I was there, I visited a few remote villages and met with a shaman woman, who had a bottle of red liquid that was described to me as being the most powerful hallucinogenic in the Amazon, made from some local plants. When the effects were described it sounded like crazy stuff, and I'm sure it would make us all see some "spirits".
Rentahamster said:
Don't look at me. I don't belive that stuff, but as long as you don't believe in dieties you are technically still an athiest. So if you wanted to believe in evil gnomes that take underpants you could as long as they aren't gods.
It doesn't make any sense in a Western context because most American or European athiest get to this point by rejecting the notion of god/spritualism because the two are so intertwined in our culture. But if we lived in a culture where god and spiritualism were seperate entities then I could see it happening.
Bhuddhist for example are highly spiritual but many consider themselves athiests.
So could I claim I was an atheist if I said I believed in Jesus, but only as a spirit who watches everyone from up in the clouds and occasionally gives me useful advice, without worshipping him or thinking he's a god?
Because I totally want to tell everyone that's what I believe now.
Because I totally want to tell everyone that's what I believe now.
CharlieDigital
Banned
Cyan said:So could I claim I was an atheist if I said I believed in Jesus, but only as a spirit who watches everyone from up in the clouds and occasionally gives me useful advice, without worshipping him or thinking he's a god?
Because I totally want to tell everyone that's what I believe now.
As long as you refer to him as "Ha-sus"
Cyan said:So could I claim I was an atheist if I said I believed in Jesus, but only as a spirit who watches everyone from up in the clouds and occasionally gives me useful advice, without worshipping him or thinking he's a god?
Because I totally want to tell everyone that's what I believe now.
you better not say that around christians then
thats hardcore blasphemy right there
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
One of the oldest Christian heresies taught something like that- Arianism. Arians still believed in the Old Testament God, though.Cyan said:So could I claim I was an atheist if I said I believed in Jesus, but only as a spirit who watches everyone from up in the clouds and occasionally gives me useful advice, without worshipping him or thinking he's a god?
Because I totally want to tell everyone that's what I believe now.
Blader5489 said:
not really. Most atheist in the US tend towards secular humanism or nihilism of some sort.
but it's possible to believe in spiritual things and not think of them as deities. Some Buddhists for example believe that spiritual entities exist simply as a construct of human consciousness (i.e. they exist, but only because we think they do). I would certainly classify that as an atheistic philosophy.
CharlieDigital
Banned
border said:
Kind of a tangent now, but was Mulder (X-Files) an atheist?
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
kevm3 said:
In the United States? yes. Like I said, spiritualism and religion are too heavily linked in Western culture. Mystical things (vampires, ghosts, etc) usually have some kind of religious slant to them. So when someone in the US becomes an atheist it is typically because they reject religion/spiritualism. That is why atheist GAF is full of people that laugh at people that believe in invisible men in the sky.
There are other cultures (see the Buddhist example) where you can grow up being spiritual and atheist. It is your background in this culture that is preventing you from severing the idea of spiritualism and religion. The two are not married to one another ipso facto.
I can't sit around and defend every argument made by every hypothetical atheist since people are interested in conflating many styles of atheism into one untenable monolithic system of philosophy.kevm3 said:
I can only point out that there's a difference between believing in ghosts and worshiping a god, trying to impose that god's rules on everyone, expecting that god to grant you magical things and a happy afterlife. Nobody "puts stock" into ghosts. They don't expect ghosts to reward or punish them or do much of anything other than pop out and say "Boo". Some people can probably believe that there is a rational, scientific but as-of-yet undiscovered explanation of ghosts as well.
border said:
I would say another example is mana. People that believe there is no god/higher power but some sort of life force in all of us and when we die that life force continues to exist outside of a body.
I personally think that position is as laughable, but it's an example of people believing in supernatural things without having a religion.
Also Jedi would fall into this category.
CharlieDigital
Banned
kevm3 said:
:lol
If beliefs in the spirit and taking advice from spirits is tolerable, then why isn't belief in a 'higher power'? All that differs is one's relationship with the spiritual realm.
I can agree that spiritualism and 'religion' aren't attached at the hip, just as a belief in God isn't tethered to intolerance and forcing your beliefs upon others.
Ultimately, the important thing I believe should be taken from the article is the type of society that is possible when people respect each other's beliefs, society cares for each other and maybe even the virtues of simpler living. It's just a bit annoying that some are using this story to insinuate the superiority of an 'atheist society' over one which is predominately religious, when that detracts from what the story is really about.
I can agree that spiritualism and 'religion' aren't attached at the hip, just as a belief in God isn't tethered to intolerance and forcing your beliefs upon others.
Ultimately, the important thing I believe should be taken from the article is the type of society that is possible when people respect each other's beliefs, society cares for each other and maybe even the virtues of simpler living. It's just a bit annoying that some are using this story to insinuate the superiority of an 'atheist society' over one which is predominately religious, when that detracts from what the story is really about.
kevm3 said:
I don't think anyone is saying that belief in a "higher power" is intolerable. It's just the bright line between being athiest and not being an athiest. So it matters insofar as you are trying to determine if someone is an athiest (which is the point I was making).
Also, some quakers might consider themselves athiest. I dated a practicing "friend" for about 3 months that considered herself agnostic despite going to church weekly.
kevm3 said:
so, one person.
and you have to understand that there is a commonly held view in this country that athiests are all evil and without god in someones life the world would fall apart. So being able to point out that there is a (somewhat) athiest society that isn't at each others throat is nice for us.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Aselith said:
spanks said:
polyh3dron said:
DevelopmentArrested said:
Ela Hadrun said:
i think it started with that.
i have to say though, ive learned alot about atheism today. Its just funny that athiests (and by atheists i don't mean certain Buddhists or Jains) always attack religious people for believing in things that don't exist. And all this time i had atheists pegged for reasonably rational people.
Maybe I'm wrong but I never expect atheists to be picketing in front of Santa Claus displays. Even if they don't believe in St. Nick themselves they aren't going to make an issue of it, as it's harmless. I understand that atheists can accept a certain amount of irrational belief in unreal things while still viewing belief in a deity as a more serious problem.Number 2 said:
Do people in the thread really conflate belief in deity with belief in any supernatural phenomena? That sounds simplistic to me.
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
i vote to change 'atheistgaf' to RationalGAF TM.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
DevelopmentArrested said:
Do you believe in UFOs, astral projections, mental telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, spirit photography, telekinetic movement, full trance mediums, the Loch Ness monster and the theory of Atlantis? If you don't, ill take an application.
I think when we atheists call Christians retarded and so forth, the point is that our societies should *know* better than to believe man in the sky, resurrecting virgin birth walk on water boy mythologies. Because clearly they are stupendously stupid beliefs given all we know about the operation of the world.Number 2 said:
But when some 'primitive' [for want of a less derogatory term] tribe in the Amazon claims to regularly see what they regard as spirits while still marvelously rejecting the egocentricity of deity worship... you're inclined to give them a little space given their almost certain use of halucinogens.
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
Number 2 said:
Ah, if there's a steady paycheck in it, I'll believe anything you say.
CharlieDigital
Banned
Aselith said:
But you should know better by the time you're 18. Otherwise, you just might be retarded.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
So the rationalization of the exaltation has gone from "as long as the spirits dont give commandments" to "well they are rather primitive."
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