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[thefil]

Disregarding the merits of this argument, if it was in fact what Square intended, that would make 75% of the Final Fantasies from 7-10 star a character that is, by some definition, dead.

7: Starring Cloud, who believes he is Zack, who is dead
8: Starring Squall, who is dead
9: Starring Zidane
10: Starring Tidus, who is dead

 

[Rahul]

Disregarding the merits of this argument, if it was in fact what Square intended, that would make 75% of the Final Fantasies from 7-10 star a character that is, by some definition, dead.

7: Starring Cloud, who believes he is Zack, who is dead
8: Starring Squall, who is dead
9: Starring Zidane
10: Starring Tidus, who is dead

:lol Good deductive skills there, thefil!

Edit: the GF just noted that both Zidane and Cloud are clones. And they ALL suffer from amnesia of some kind, including Terra from FFVI. Nice motifs.

 

[KittenMaster]

10: Starring Tidus, who is dead

Well...

 

[Mael]

Do you have any idea how long it's been since I fought a final boss that I understood in a final fantasy game?

I'd say Crystal Bearers...or FFXII if you're one of theses that complain FF is trite but still play them (and buy them too!)

 

[MechaX]

I've said this one too many times in this thread already, but the OP keeps ignoring it. If the biggest factor that comes into play with this theory is about Squall getting stabbed with the ice, and all of a sudden his wound his healed, it's because Ultimecia wanted Squall alive and let Seifer torture him. Seifer enjoyed it. He was possessed, and as you put it, Ultimecia sees the future from an incomplete perspective and needs to get more info from Squall.

Personally, I've always had a problem with the logistics behind that torture scene.

Seemingly, Ultimecia is trying to find out what the purpose of SeeD truly is. Regardless, I would imagine that Ultimecia is a super sorceress that is above petty grudges and vendettas. But for some reason, she fails to send the order to interrogate the 3 other SeeD members (Irvine, Zell, Selphie) whom even Seifer admits would be much easier targets? Not to mention, he already alludes to trying to find out some "secret" that all SeeD "should" know, not merely Squall or not merely a squad leader. Sure, Seifer wanted to gloat in Squall's face, but shouldn't Ultimecia really, really be above petty shit like that?

 

[Rahul]

:lol

Terra - Amnesia, "what is love?", sordid past, experimented on scientifically
Cloud - Amnesia, identity issues, experimented on scientifically, sordid past
Squall - Amnesia, extreme introvert and realist, sordid past
Zidane - Amnesia, happy go lucky, experimented on scientifically
Tidus - Amnesia, happy go lucky, sordid past, is a dream (or basically dead)

Vaan - happy go lucky

Goddamn FFXII was refreshing. Thank you Matsuno.

 

[thefil]

:lol

Terra - Amnesia, "what is love?", sordid past, experimented on scientifically
Cloud - Amnesia, identity issues, experimented on scientifically, sordid past
Squall - Amnesia, extreme introvert and realist, sordid past
Zidane - Amnesia, happy go lucky, experimented on scientifically
Tidus - Amnesia, happy go lucky, sordid past, is a dream (or basically dead)

1994 - 2001: Final Fantasy: The Forgotten Years

 

[Mael]

:lol

Terra - Amnesia, "what is love?", sordid past, experimented on scientifically
Cloud - Amnesia, identity issues, experimented on scientifically, sordid past
Squall - Amnesia, extreme introvert and realist, sordid past
Zidane - Amnesia, happy go lucky, experimented on scientifically
Tidus - Amnesia, happy go lucky, sordid past, is a dream (or basically dead)

Well at least in FFVI the amnesia was resolved by midgame....
It's funny how Cloud is actually like an amalgam of the others.

 

[Mael]

Cecil - Helpful personality, guilt issues, sordid past.
Bartz - Happy go lucky, daddy issues, sordid past.
Vaan - Petty and childish, sordid past.

Firionnel : ..... drawing a blank here....

 

[KittenMaster]

Fighter - Pretty much the greatest person ever.

 

[Nairume]

:lol

Terra - Amnesia, "what is love?", sordid past, experimented on scientifically
Cloud - Amnesia, identity issues, experimented on scientifically, sordid past
Squall - Amnesia, extreme introvert and realist, sordid past
Zidane - Amnesia, happy go lucky, experimented on scientifically
Tidus - Amnesia, happy go lucky, sordid past, is a dream (or basically dead)

Was Zidane really a case of Amnesia? As far I remember

Spoiler

It was more of a case of him not remembering Terra because he was too young to remember it when he was sent to Gaia.

Same goes for Garnet and her not (fully) remembering the summoners' village.

 

[FoxSpirit]

Sidenote: When JRPGs want you to know something really important, they'll let you.
Tragedy is made clear to you, insanity is.

This analysis goes into modern arts discussion, where a Square on a white canvas is discussed for hours. Only this is Final Fantasy.

Oh yeah, and Tidus... well, in the end even he survived being not quite real. Being dead in a japanese setting can be very non permanent. :lol

 

[140.85]

Why would someone think that there was no way Squall would survive an ice spell? He's a SeeD member trained to fight with magic. And besides - it's Final Fantasy - it's pretty rare in the FF world that one spell kills anything...unless its like Ultima or a Summon.

 

[Rahul]

Sidenote: When JRPGs want you to know something really important, they'll let you.
Tragedy is made clear to you, insanity is.

This analysis goes into modern arts discussion, where a Square on a white canvas is discussed for hours. Only this is Final Fantasy.

Oh yeah, and Tidus... well, in the end even he survived being not quite real. Being dead in a japanese setting can be very non permanent. :lol

I wouldn't blanket statement JRPGs that way; Demon's Souls for instance has a very subtly told story, in stark contrast to the Nomura/Kitase/Nojima brand of stupid we have to deal with at the Hollywood scale.

Having said that, I thoroughly enjoyed VI, VII, IX, and X and based on those experienced have high expectations for XIII. I fully expect it to be even more ridiculous than the previous games, but that comes with the writer and production team. Maybe in 10 years we'll be making up ridiculous theories to explain away the plot holes in Lightning's adventure?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Same shit.

Well, that would be childhood amnesia, which every human being ever born suffers from. Looks like Square was onto something here!

Himuro - amnesiac, identity issues, sordid past (involving a duck and a hose, don't ask)
Segata - amnesiac, daddy issues, sordid past (involving a duck and a hose and a Himuro)
Patrick Stewart - amnesiac, awesome issues, sordid past (involving an unconscious Himuro and a pretending-to-be-unconscious Segata)

 

[Rahul]

Why would someone think that there was no way Squall would survive an ice spell? He's a SeeD member trained to fight with magic. And besides - it's Final Fantasy - it's pretty rare in the FF world that one spell kills anything...unless its like Ultima or a Summon.

General Leo and Aerith disagree with you!

 

[Hesemonni]

Who cares about FF8, where's my FF9 HD remake?!?!

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Being dead in a japanese setting can be very non permanent. :lol

Indeed. They need to learn to keep dead things dead the way we do in the west, you know, like Superman, Andy Kaufman, Hal Jordan, Norman Osborn, Bucky, Elvis Presley, Jason Todd, Ian Malcolm, Jesus Christ, the Yo Quiero Taco Bell Chihuahua, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Patch from Days of Our Lives, Patrick Duffy, Optimus Prime, Conan O'Brien's career, the McRib, and disco.

 

[Nairume]

Who cares about FF8, where's my FF9 HD remake?!?!

Having its resources diverted for a DS remake.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

You forgot someone:

You know, I only now just noticed Captain America's nutsack is as big as a baby's head.

 

[Scythesurge]

Thank you for adding very little to this discussion.

No matter what the discussion is, FF9 fans have say why they think FF9 is awesome and that it was the best in the series even if that is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Just wait until the remake clearly states that Zidane dies in the beginning of the game, then they'll have something to discuss.

 

[carlo6529]

That design is not remotely FF8-ish. When I think of FF8, I think of...more normal clothing and fashion. Nothing outwardly fantastical and ridiculous like that. The only characters who wear ridiculous clothing in the game are Odine and the Sorceresses.

Still, I'd kill for an FF8 or a prequel to FF8. I just want more FF8, ya know?

I see what you did there

Spoiler

perhaps unintentional?

 

[140.85]

General Leo and Aerith disagree with you!

I think that it's shown pretty clearly early on in VII how devastating Sephiroth's sword is and Aerith wasn't exactly battle hardened. She was a novice who had some healing spells and a pretty weak weapon. As far as General Leo goes I don't remember what happened to him...

 

[MechaX]

Well, it's also hinted that Ultimecia is paranoid as fuck.

Also, Seifer doesn't say they'd be easier targets. He goes for Squall first because they have the biggest connection. He was GOING to interrogate the others.

While I do see your point, the instance of Seifer flat out saying that Zell would crack pretty quickly does insinuate that there were easier ways to get the information Ultimecia needed (I know that this is just Seifer being a douche to Zell as always, but to be honest, I could see Zell cracking under interrogation pretty easily myself).

Sure, Seifer most likely was like "Hah hah, fuck that noise. I'm going to piss of Squall first and the soldiers can handle the rest," but I'm surprised that Ultimecia didn't really put Seifer into check for something like that (now that I think of it, Ultimecia never really punishes any one for their incompetence outside of Deling, when even Saturday morning minions like minions of the Shredder would be losing entire body parts at this point; my source: watch the 2k3 cartoon). Here, we have a future sorceress that can evidently read minds (with the R=U theory shot, there are not too many ways for her to know about Griever) and can apparently hypnotize large crowds (a crowd under hypnosis is the only way the parade not breaking out into a massive riot/panic the moment she publicly executed the leader of a nation makes a lick of sense. And before any one says it, yes, she was speaking into the microphone that entire time). Hell, Ultimecia could have done the interrogation herself!

It's like some one in the writing department had no clear idea on what a sorceress could do exactly outside of casting true magic.

 

[Rahul]

Indeed. They need to learn to keep dead things dead the way we do in the west, you know, like Superman, Andy Kaufman, Hal Jordan, Norman Osborn, Bucky, Elvis Presley, Jason Todd, Ian Malcolm, Jesus Christ, the Yo Quiero Taco Bell Chihuahua, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Patch from Days of Our Lives, Patrick Duffy, Optimus Prime, Conan O'Brien's career, the McRib, and disco.

Breaking: this post full of win. Thank you sir.

Seifer's behaviour to me on disc 2 doesn't make any sense compared to his behaviour on disc 1. On disc 1, he's off doing his own thing and doesn't give a shit about anyone else. Sure, he'll step on Squall if he gets in the way or if he's forced to, but he's essentially just like Squall in that he's just being a teenager, albeit of a different kind: the bully, the brat, the self-absorbed big-mouth who has to class-clown his way through anything. But starting with disc 2, he's suddenly obsessed with making Squall feel pain. I don't get it. You either explain it as bad writing, or as Squall's Dead, and I'll go with Squall's Dead any day.

 

[HK-47]

Vaan - happy go lucky

Goddamn FFXII was refreshing. Thank you Matsuno.

Dont forget inconsequential and shoved into the game by the marketing department!

 

[charlequin]

This theory is nice and interesting to read, but it's obviously not true. Square hasn't told a good story in a very very long time.

It's not like the OP's theory actually makes FF8 a good story anyway. The dead Squall theory makes the whole game into the mother of all shaggy-dog stories -- you spend 40 hours of your life following this series of events that is ultimately meaningless, providing you no insight into anything, no resolution of dramatic tension, and no informational resolution to the intriguing mysteries raised on the first disc. It is, in fact, dramatically worse storytelling than FF8 taken at face-value, which itself is far and away the least skillfully plotted and scripted of the 3D Final Fantasies.

 

[xtheEnemy]

I've read somewhere that Ultimecia is Rinoa. I kinda liked it.

good read btw.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I guess you missed the part where Ultimecia brainwashed Seifer. Oh well.

 

[ElFly]

Seeing some good discussion here. I just wanted to say (harriet the spy) that I don't discount the potential validity of other interpretations like R=U, but I personally don't agree with it. We looked over it in writing our analysis and felt that it didn't have the evidence to support it. It's fine if other people find value in it, however.

What's funny is that if you accept S=D, there's nothing that contradicts U=R. Nothing.

 

[MechaX]

I guess you missed the part where Ultimecia brainwashed Seifer. Oh well.

And there was a good reason for Ultimecia to not really.. you know, brainwash any one else who might contribute to her downfall?

That, and Seifer seemed content on doing his own thing in Disc 3 without a sorceress actively looking over his back, so it definitely seemed like both of their interests coincided at least.

 

[ElFly]

He actually reminds me of Ultimecia's final form, in which she also didn't have a face.

I don't know if you've noticed, but ultimecia is actually hanging down from the thing.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

And there was a good reason for Ultimecia to not really.. you know, brainwash any one else who might contribute to her downfall?

That, and Seifer seemed content on doing his own thing in Disc 3 without a sorceress actively looking over his back, so it definitely seemed like both of their interests coincided at least.

It was Seifer's childhood dream of being a sorceress's knight. Seifer's rivalry with Squall made him the ideal candidate to be a knight and protect ultimecia, since Squall was the leader of SeeD and to kill ultimecia.

 

[MechaX]

It was Seifer's childhood dream of being a sorceress's knight. Seifer's rivalry with Squall made him the ideal candidate to be a knight and protect ultimecia, since Squall was the leader of SeeD and to kill ultimecia.

Squall wasn't even the leader of SeeD by the time she initially brainwashed Seifer. If she actually knew that Squall would eventually become the leader, then she would most likely know by proxy the purpose of SeeD or even be able to see that Squall would be the key instrument to her downfall. That, and by Disc 1 and 2, Ultimecia could have easily exploited a lot of Squall's insecurities in the same fashion (his introversion, what little he remembered of Ellone, etc. Wait, can Ultimecia access Edea's memories?).

Hell, that scenario implies that Ultimecia can brainwash under certain situations (mostly dependent on past dreams and current emotions), which doesn't explain how she can brainwash entire crowds and effectively the entire Galbadia army (in which, it was half by fear and half just... being brainwashed).

edit: I think it's reasonable to assume the galbadian army just follows Edea because she is powerful. Does the game really say they were brainwashed?

There might have been an NPC that alluded to it somewhere, but most likely out of paranoia. Another NPC also says that Galbadia is following the sorceress only because they fear her power, which is why I would put it down as half and half. I'm leaning more towards a mixture due to how we at least do know that she can brainwash people and put people under hypnotic states (in case point, Rinoa in Disc 1 after meeting Edea, more in case point, the parade crowd's nonchalance).

 

[ElFly]

There's more where that came from.

When I played the game, that really came as weird, but after disc 3 or so, I thought it was about how they hailed Ultimecia, who they had condemned in history, yet was inside Edea.

Could go either way.

Squall wasn't even the leader of SeeD by the time she initially brainwashed Seifer. If she actually knew that Squall would eventually become the leader, then she would most likely know by proxy the purpose of SeeD or even be able to see that Squall would be the key instrument to her downfall. That, and by Disc 1 and 2, Ultimecia could have easily exploited a lot of Squall's insecurities in the same fashion (his introversion, what little he remembered of Ellone, etc).

Hell, that scenario implies that Ultimecia can brainwash under certain situations (mostly dependent on past dreams and current emotions), which doesn't explain how she can brainwash entire crowds and effectively the entire Galbadia army (in which, it was half by fear and half just... being brainwashed).

Yeah, she doesn't really now that's Squall is anyone of importance, given how she greets him as "you are the legendary SeeD?" or something.

If she had known Squall was someone important, in the final battle she would have said "goddamnit Seifer, I told you to kill this guy, but nooooo, let's torture him".


edit: I think it's reasonable to assume the galbadian army just follows Edea because she is powerful. Does the game really say they were brainwashed?

There's also nothing that supports it. Because it's allll noooothhiiiing

Oh snap.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

What's funny is that if you accept S=D, there's nothing that contradicts U=R. Nothing.

There's also nothing that supports it. Because it's allll noooothhiiiing

 

[RaijinFY]

Yeah....

I.......... I mean wow! :lol

I realize each days passing, i understand less and less about the scenario of this game. :lol

 

[2San]

Ok thank you guys, I can never enjoy this game again. I have now realized how much bullshit there is in this game. Thank you for destroying my childhood. ;_;

 

[Prime Blue]

There's more where that came from.

That is just a case of very "creative" translating. In the Japanese version she just says how the people's image of a witch is foolish.

 

[MechaX]

Yeah....

I.......... I mean wow! :lol

I realize each days passing, i understand less and less about the scenario of this game. :lol

It's like the 70 minute review of The Phantom Menace that got posted a couple of months ago. You think you understand what's going on perfectly, but after a few well placed questions, it turns out you really don't understand it at all.

(I'm joking. Halfway.)

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

Ok thank you guys, I can never enjoy this game again. I have now realized how much bullshit there is in this game. Thank you for destroying my childhood. ;_;

I knew how much BS there was in this game when I was playing it and it's still my favourite FF.

Time travel is a notoriously tricky narrative concept to handle without leaving gaping plotholes, throw in Square's penchant for incomprehensible story logic, that the plot probably went through any number of different people and commitees before making into the game, its need to stretch out over a 50+ hour game and the CG department probably going 'wouldn't it be cool if the climax of disc 1 is Squall being stabbed with a magic icicle, everybody will just think it's badass and not read anything else into it' and it was always going to be a mess.

 

[Roto13]

A lot of this theory seems to hedge on the fact that there are fantastic elements in a fantasy themed game called "Final Fantasy." And that it's odd to spend the first part of the game introducing characters and explaining the rules of the world a little bit before jumping into the nitty gritty of the story later. And that there's a happy ending.

And isn't that image of the eye at the end of disc 1 of Edea?

I don't know if you've noticed, but ultimecia is actually hanging down from the thing.

Mind = blown.

Also, Tidus didn't have amnesia. He remembered his life just fine. They just thought he had amnesia because he didn't remember anything about the real world, but he had just never been there.

 

[K' Dash]

Ok, If Squall is dead at the end of the first disc, what happened to the others? and What happened after that?

In short: what the fuck happend to the world after Squall "dies"? surely if Edea was a menace the story can't stop there.

 

[2San]

I knew how much BS there was in this game when I was playing it and it's still my favourite FF.

Time travel is a notoriously tricky narrative concept to handle without leaving gaping plotholes, throw in Square's penchant for incomprehensible story logic, that the plot probably went through any number of different people and commitees before making into the game, its need to stretch out over a 50+ hour game and the CG department probably going 'wouldn't it be cool if the climax of disc 1 is Squall being stabbed with a magic icicle, everybody will just think it's badass and not read anything else into it' and it was always going to be a mess.

Yeah, but it effectively destroys another play-trough, since now I will focus on the things wrong with rather than take it as it is. I'll still say it's a good game, just don't use to much logic. D:

 

[ElFly]

Ok, If Squall is dead at the end of the first disc, what happened to the others? and What happened after that?

In short: what the fuck happend to the world after Squall "dies"? surely if Edea was a menace the story can't stop there.

Irvine decides to shoot again and kills Edea. Then bangs Selphie.

Squall's party decides to quit smoking pot, so the dreams about Laguna end.

Fin.

 

[Chuckie]

That design is not remotely FF8-ish. When I think of FF8, I think of...more normal clothing and fashion. Nothing outwardly fantastical and ridiculous like that. The only characters who wear ridiculous clothing in the game are Odine and the Sorceresses.

Still, I'd kill for an FF8 or a prequel to FF8. I just want more FF8, ya know?

You are right, however I do think it is Rinoa.... in an SM porn outfit. Probably some fanboy who made it.

 

[Clear]

I think its interesting that what Cloud, Squall, and Tidus have in common is they are all teens dealing with angsty issues from their childhood (I always thought of this as Kaz Nojima trope, as its conspicuously absent from FF entries he didn't pen) but ultimately this is used as an angle to introduce a bigger reveal:

In FF7 Cloud is alive but thinks he's actually his dead friend Zack.

In FFX Tidus thinks he's alive but is actually long dead.

Thematically Squall dying, but seeing through his mission and getting the girl as a last breath fantasy fits extremely well.

In fact, as an aborted idea it could be considered a dry-run for FFX's denoument, which is beefed up (and made less of a bummer ending) by making Yuna a more active player in the story than Rinoa ever was.

 

[Freshmaker]

Breaking: this post full of win. Thank you sir.

Seifer's behaviour to me on disc 2 doesn't make any sense compared to his behaviour on disc 1. On disc 1, he's off doing his own thing and doesn't give a shit about anyone else. Sure, he'll step on Squall if he gets in the way or if he's forced to, but he's essentially just like Squall in that he's just being a teenager, albeit of a different kind: the bully, the brat, the self-absorbed big-mouth who has to class-clown his way through anything. But starting with disc 2, he's suddenly obsessed with making Squall feel pain. I don't get it. You either explain it as bad writing, or as Squall's Dead, and I'll go with Squall's Dead any day.

Or Ultimecia recognizes Squall as her killer, and she tells Seifer that Squall is out to kill her. Since Seifer sees himself as "a knight protecting his sorceress from the evil mercenary", he would be more inclined to want to hurt Squall.

Also, she never really brainwashed Seifer. She made him an offer, and he was so pathetic that he took her up on it.

 

[ElFly]

What I was saying was that Ultimecia took control of Edea's body and the "one they feared for generations" or whatever standing right there, praising her (likely out of fear).



Really.

So many of my interpretations of the game could be flat out wrong because of the English translation?

Seems the translation really improved the game :lol

 

[MechaX]

Or Ultimecia recognizes Squall as her killer, and she tells Seifer that Squall is out to kill her. Since Seifer sees himself as "a knight protecting his sorceress from the evil mercenary", he would be more inclined to want to hurt Squall.

If Ultimecia knew that much, then she would have known that Seifer and the Galbadia army would be utterly ineffective against Squall (if they were effective, Squall wouldn't even have been alive to kill her as the only way for Ultimecia to know that Squall would be her demise is if the Time Loop went through its cycle at least once, unless Ultimecia is literally stupid and insane enough to do the same course of events twice and expect something different). If that was the case, why didn't she just try to end things permanently personally rather than staging an ineffective Garden battle and waiting for Squall to reach her? Or even send a massive force to Fisherman's Horizon at the point where Balamb was the most vulnerable (since the Galbadian's at least knew where they were) pretty easily?

If that's NOT Ultimecia indoctrinating Edea, Rinoa, Adel et all then I don't know what to say. Because if not, that would throw every single thing I understand about FF8 out the fucking window.

Wow. I'm actually pretty curious on what the original version of that scene in its entirety was about now.