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[Shouta]

Earlier. 2002 was definitely when it blew up, with maybe 2003 being the complete turning point. I was in Lunar-Anime for a while in 2003 and our IRC channel wasn't serving anywhere near what our torrents were.

Nah, 2005-2006 was when BT became a big player. While it was around earlier it didn't hit the big time until around that point. I've been a fansubber since the traditional VHS days, I've had to change methods over the years and I'm pretty sure 2005 was the big year for BT.

 

[DrForester]

Hecto Translation of Rurouni Kenshin no VHS went something like

"You motherfucking, fucking fuckers! I'll fucking rip that fucking noodle in two so we can have some fucking dinner!"

or along those lines.

In all seriousness, in some cases the fansub translation was better than the domestic release but that definitely was back at the tail-end of traditional VHS subs. Most digisubs aren't fantastic.

Pretty sure it wasn't that one.

 

[Mandoric]

I think if the right company picked it up, it could happen. If the TSRI dude was right, it seems all special features have to be cleared in addition to getting the rights to the show itself.

And then it's just companies cheaping out and not bothering to sub commentaries when they do include them.

I dunno though, I think whoever picked up Bakemono would have to know what they're getting into at least. I would hope so anyway.

Why would they? Like I alluded to, it's considered a special feature when a licensee even picks up the video rather than the TV version of a show; the most recent SHAFT show to be picked up actually has a weird mix of the two IIRC.

Also, irt translation quality, the good news is that official tls used to be notably better and the bad news is that they're chasing the market now, with all the "keikakus" that implies.

Spoiler

also it's mostly the same people

 

[DrForester]

VHS days also brought quality stuff like this (Shouta might remember it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvEKo-rOUN4

 

[Shouta]

Pretty sure it wasn't that one.

Was joking, it was the most famous one for just how outrageous it was though.

 

[DrForester]

Was joking, it was the most famous one for just how outrageous it was though.

Yeah, and I do remember the late VHS fansubs going for quality. My anime club used to do them. They did a translation of Key the Metal Idol and Princess Mononoke way back when.

 

[Pachinko]

Not like this is surprising at all. I consider the anime industry the ultimate example of what happens when piracy runs unchecked and rampatantly, the studios making the stuff become unable to sell anything overseas because foreign markets are just downloading it months before a localized version is available so they get forced into making more and more niche products appealing to the rapidly dwindling hardcore moe moe crowd in japan. The cycle continues to ever higher degrees because even without piracy no one outside of super otaku right out of japan watches any of the newer stuff so no one bothers to liscense it and thus the market shrinks more, shows become more niche and so on and so forth.

I don't feel as though piracy is the 1 single cause but it's definetly the largest reason why the whole industry has been on a rapid death spiral, no one in japan even wants to do animation anymore because the pay has become so paltry so everything gets outsourced to budget chinese and korean studios which means even stuff that isn't moe crap gets such awful production values it still isn't worth watching or liscensing if you happen to be in foreign distribution.

The simple end problem is that the target audience for this stuff where the rest of the world is concerned is mostly 12-21 year old men and women, this same age group was brought up on the concept of downloading everything for free so even if they tried selling anime like itunes sells music ( a method that has been very successful with the same audience) no one will want to spend more then 1 dollar an episode which simply isn't enough to make up for what it costs to bring a show over for legal release.

There's really no easy solution here, pretty hard to get an entire generation that feels its entitled to everything and anything it wants for free to just suddenly start paying money for entertainment, they'll just turn to methods of entertainment that are free. Which I'd wager they've been doing anyway.

 

[shintoki]

Nah, 2005-2006 was when BT became a big player. While it was around earlier it didn't hit the big time until around that point. I've been a fansubber since the traditional VHS days, I've had to change methods over the years and I'm pretty sure 2005 was the big year for BT.

2003-2004. If you were saying 2005-2006 for BT for general piracy, I'd agree. Anime shifted over quicker though.

 

[firehawk12]

Why would they? Like I alluded to, it's considered a special feature when a licensee even picks up the video rather than the TV version of a show; the most recent SHAFT show to be picked up actually has a weird mix of the two IIRC.

Also, irt translation quality, the good news is that official tls used to be notably better and the bad news is that they're chasing the market now, with all the "keikakus" that implies.

Spoiler

also it's mostly the same people

I'm sure there's a bean counter out there working out the costs of doing special features vs just cheaping out. I'd like to think that the added value of doing the commentaries (which no one is willing to touch) would be enough to drive sales amongst the "pirates". Who knows, I'd probably buy it either way since I'm part of the problem.

And yeah, I feel like CR is kind of representative of where subs and fansubs are now.

 

[dimb]

Not like this is surprising at all. I consider the anime industry the ultimate example of what happens when piracy runs unchecked and rampatantly, the studios making the stuff become unable to sell anything overseas because foreign markets are just downloading it months before a localized version is available...

Wouldn't the onus then fall on the companies to create and release well localized product within a reasonable time frame?

 

[Dresden]

And yeah, I feel like CR is kind of representative of where subs and fansubs are now.

I squidding agree.

Wouldn't the onus then fall on the companies making it to release well localized product within a reasonable time frame?

The Japanese companies don't exactly make it easy for them.

 

[firehawk12]

I squidding agree.

Squid you mother squidder!

 

[DrForester]

Not like this is surprising at all. I consider the anime industry the ultimate example of what happens when piracy runs unchecked and rampatantly, the studios making the stuff become unable to sell anything overseas because foreign markets are just downloading it months before a localized version is available so they get forced into making more and more niche products appealing to the rapidly dwindling hardcore moe moe crowd in japan. The cycle continues to ever higher degrees because even without piracy no one outside of super otaku right out of japan watches any of the newer stuff so no one bothers to liscense it and thus the market shrinks more, shows become more niche and so on and so forth.

I think there's evidence to disagree. A lot has to do with the fanbase itself.

Again, back to Mystery Science Theater 3000. Piracy was encouraged by the cast and crew, and yet when it was finally released, sales were good enough to see the company put more and more effort into getting the difficult to license episodes to retail and it continues to sell well. They even put the effort into getting the Gamera episodes, which until the announcement were thought to be impossible to get the rights to.

Another would be Top Gear. Like MST3K, the cast and crew brag about their downloads. One of the show largest fansites posts torrents just minutes after airing and rather than try and shut them down the cast and crew have given shoutouts to the site on occasion and even made sure some of their forums members were in attendance for the first taping of Top Gear USA. Yet the show gets good ratings on BBC America (who even uses the piracy as a joke in their own marketing of the show), and the piracy has made the show such an international success that it's spawned 3 spinoffs in other countries (with more rumored).

In both of these cases the piracy was used to promote and spread awareness of the show. Many fans still chose to legitimately support the show and the shows have been better off because of the rampant, unchecked piracy.

 

[dimb]

The Japanese companies don't exactly make it easy for them.

I didn't mean translation companies, but the actual people producing the product.

People are blaming the global market for wanting fast access to new product in a time dominated by instant availability of media. It's silly. Realistically, most anime companies have turned their back on the world for the most part and don't seem to be very global-centric. It's a very poorly run industry.

 

[Shouta]

2003-2004. If you were saying 2005-2006 for BT for general piracy, I'd agree. Anime shifted over quicker though.

I'm at work and they have a filter here, woof otherwise I'd check out certain BT sites for files though but most of the series I can remember around 2003-2004 for anime didn't have that many torrents and I'm almost certain 2005 was when it really hit it off for anime. I can recall because the first title that I released on torrent was Mamoru-kun.

It was definitely not 2003 as I was still subbing Gear Fighter Dendoh and Yamamoto Yohko back then and I don't remember ever releasing those on torrents. Well, that and I was just out of high school that year an BT didn't exist until I had like 2 years of college under my belt.

 

[Mandoric]

Not like this is surprising at all. I consider the anime industry the ultimate example of what happens when piracy runs unchecked and rampatantly, the studios making the stuff become unable to sell anything overseas because foreign markets are just downloading it months before a localized version is available so they get forced into making more and more niche products appealing to the rapidly dwindling hardcore moe moe crowd in japan. The cycle continues to ever higher degrees because even without piracy no one outside of super otaku right out of japan watches any of the newer stuff so no one bothers to liscense it and thus the market shrinks more, shows become more niche and so on and so forth.

I don't feel as though piracy is the 1 single cause but it's definetly the largest reason why the whole industry has been on a rapid death spiral, no one in japan even wants to do animation anymore because the pay has become so paltry so everything gets outsourced to budget chinese and korean studios which means even stuff that isn't moe crap gets such awful production values it still isn't worth watching or liscensing if you happen to be in foreign distribution.

The simple end problem is that the target audience for this stuff where the rest of the world is concerned is mostly 12-21 year old men and women, this same age group was brought up on the concept of downloading everything for free so even if they tried selling anime like itunes sells music ( a method that has been very successful with the same audience) no one will want to spend more then 1 dollar an episode which simply isn't enough to make up for what it costs to bring a show over for legal release.

There's really no easy solution here, pretty hard to get an entire generation that feels its entitled to everything and anything it wants for free to just suddenly start paying money for entertainment, they'll just turn to methods of entertainment that are free. Which I'd wager they've been doing anyway.

The problem is that foreign distro is trying to make a profit for themselves -and- Japan selling something that's somewhere between a loss leader and advertisement in its own country. This is why piracy eats them, there's a refusal and/or a lack of capital to dive into the merch where the actual cash is made.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I'm at work and they have a filter here, woof otherwise I'd check out certain BT sites for files though but most of the series I can remember around 2003-2004 for anime didn't have that many torrents and I'm almost certain 2005 was when it really hit it off for anime. I can recall because the first title that I released on torrent was Mamoru-kun.

It was definitely not 2003 as I was still subbing Gear Fighter Dendoh and Yamamoto Yohko back then and I don't remember ever releasing those on torrents. Well, that and I was just out of high school that year an BT didn't exist until I had like 2 years of college under my belt.

When did Animesuki first go up? Would that be a decent major launching point timeline-wise?

 

[firehawk12]

I think there's evidence to disagree. A lot has to do with the fanbase itself.

Again, back to Mystery Science Theater 3000. Piracy was encouraged by the cast and crew, and yet when it was finally released, sales were good enough to see the company put more and more effort into getting the difficult to license episodes to retail and it continues to sell well.

Another would be Top Gear. Like MST3K, the cast and crew brag about their downloads. One of the show largest fansites posts torrents just minutes after airing and rather than try and shut them down the cast and crew have given shoutouts to the site on occasion and even made sure some of their forums members were in attendance for the first taping of Top Gear USA. Yet the show gets good ratings on BBC America (who even uses the piracy as a joke in their own marketing of the show), and the piracy has made the show such an international success that it's spawned 3 spinoffs in other countries (with more rumored).

In both of these cases the piracy was used to promote and spread awareness of the show. Many fans still chose to legitimately support the show and the shows have been better off because of the rampant, unchecked piracy.

I have no idea bout MST3K, but with Top Gear you're talking about an English language dude bro show about cars. It's not that surprising that it'd have an audience.

One might argue that piracy helped Torchwood, Skins, Being Human and (maybe) Shameless get US versions made but I'd think that's a bit more iffy.

 

[MidnightScott]

I haven't bought any Funi-anime in a long time. The latest anime I bought was Gurren Lagann. What other stuff is out there? :c

 

[Branduil]

You can blame a lot of things for the decline of anime, but I think anime producers have no one to blame but themselves. Their overly conservative business philosophies have doomed them to being a niche market until someone with actual vision appears on the scene.

 

[Shouta]

When did Animesuki first go up? Would that be a decent major launching point timeline-wise?

I don't know and I can't check at work because it's a blocked site (which totally amazes me).

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Bittorrent wasn't the biggest player in anime piracy, Youtube was. Youtube was essentially a streaming Piratebay prior to when Google started cracking down in 2008/2009.

god that argument makes me want to kill myself whenever i hear it. especially when referring to fansubs that needlessly leave certain honorifics untranslated.

With the Nakama fan subs all of them were atrocious. Most of them probably used babelfish.

God, Nakama fansubs were so good. The definitive way to watch One Piece.

But Funi has to pay the bills somehow so I much watch it under their terms.

 

[Salazar]

Best to let animu-GAF bitch back and forth about a series for a few years and then pick up the box. Staying up to date is of vanishingly small importance. JB HiFi's range is ok and its prices are good.

 

[firehawk12]

You can blame a lot of things for the decline of anime, but I think anime producers have no one to blame but themselves. Their overly conservative business philosophies have doomed them to being a niche market until someone with actual vision appears on the scene.

Can't blame them for chasing the money. It's not like the noitanimA stuff is lighting up the charts anyway.

 

[DrForester]

I don't know and I can't check at work because it's a blocked site (which totally amazes me).

According to it's wiki page, December of 2002.

 

[Dresden]

You can blame a lot of things for the decline of anime, but I think anime producers have no one to blame but themselves. Their overly conservative business philosophies have doomed them to being a niche market until someone with actual vision appears on the scene.

 

[Kettch]

I remember early Naruto being huge on bittorrent, so 2003 sounds about right.

 

[firehawk12]

http://i.imgur.com/boGmgl.jpg[IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]


I really have no idea if Madoka being popular is a sign of it being good or a sign of it being bad. :lol:

 

[Branduil]

Can't blame them for chasing the money. It's not like the noitanimA stuff is lighting up the charts anyway.

Lighting up the charts is relative. No one sells like Ghibli, yet how many companies emulate them?

Anime industry is like the gaming industry before the DS.

 

[Dresden]

I really have no idea if Madoka being popular is a sign of it being good or a sign of it being bad. :lol:

First bake, now meguca. Shinbo is Jesus.

Spoiler

looooooool

But yeah, anime companies have no one but themselves to blame. Look at those fucking prices. But if they don't charge that much, will there be a market to compensate them for the reduction in cost?

 

[Shouta]

According to it's wiki page, December of 2002.

Sounds about right, it's not as old as envirosphere is for listing fansub releases though.

I remember early Naruto being huge on bittorrent, so 2003 sounds about right.

Actually, I don't recall very early Naruto being super popular on BT, I don't think it was in the high 50-60s that I remember seeing it on torrent and that'd be like 2005ish. I can't check for sure at work though.

 

[firehawk12]

Lighting up the charts is relative. No one sells like Ghibli, yet how many companies emulate them?

Anime industry is like the gaming industry before the DS.

Anime industry is like the US comic book industry - without the shitty billion dollar summer movies to prop them up.

First bake, now meguca. Shinbo is Jesus.

Spoiler

looooooool

That sound I hear? It's Mandoric's head slamming against his keyboard!

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

But you see, during the period of fansubber e-peen wars, the domestic industry was at its height. Things were getting licensed and released with blazing speed and were selling pretty well, even the crappy stuff. When fansubbing hadn't reached critical mass, neither had the industry. I bet you could draw some good comparisons of the growth of fansubs and the growth of the industry itself.

I don't see how you don't see the connection here. Anime fans turning to fan subbers for free anime and faster turn around killed potential sales.

And you just explained in part why the market eventually crashed, the industry didn't adapt to the demands of the consumers, both the Japanese and the Americans. If fansubbing was actually the reason the industry bottomed out, it would have never reached the level of success it did in the first place at all. The fansub/pirates killed the industry is entirely flawed (just like it is in the game industry) because it works on the premise that all every pirated copy would've been a sale which simply isn't true.[/QUOTE]

Gaming is rather different. On the consoles it requires some technological know how to hack your 360 / PS3. DS is a lot easier to steal games on thanks to ease of use flash carts.

I'd say PC gaming is a better example if you need to bring gaming into this.

Not every pirated copy would have been a sale, but a good percentage negatively impacted overall sales since once it's consumed the only reason you have to purchase it is love of the art, creator, or a moral obligation.

It's what makes a service like Netflix instant streaming so appealing. I pay $10 a month for a bottomless bucket of entertainment, and this has substantially reduced the amount of crap I buy on DVD/BRD as there's just a ton of material I want to watch, but have no interest in ever owning.

It isn't "entitlement' it's "competition and demand".

Really?

What's the competition for the anime dollar here? Anime has become so devalued it's presence in the US animation market is almost zero as well. A decade ago you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting some anime on network or cable television. For the longest time a core segment of Cartoon Network was a block of anime. They even attempted day time and evening anime scheduling for different audiences.

Nobody is buying anime and the American public isn't being exposed to it at nearly the level it was 10 years ago. That's not competition / demand. It's the bottom falling out.

 

[Branduil]

First bake, now meguca. Shinbo is Jesus.

Spoiler

looooooool

But yeah, anime companies have no one but themselves to blame. Look at those fucking prices. But if they don't charge that much, will there be a market to compensate them for the reduction in cost?

Not without also making anime that appeals to a larger market. Oh, and they also have to first convince those people that this anime is different and won't make them a smelly otaku.

It will be a deep pit to dig out of.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm pretty sure I was downloading Gatchaman fansubs on torrent in 1973...

 

[firehawk12]

Well, if you want to be serious about making comparisons - anime in Japan is like HBO in America. It costs a lot of money to watch it when it airs and the DVDs cost twice the price of normal box sets.

Surely lots of people pirate HBO content as well... but it survives because it makes money by being niche.

Not everything needs to have "Two and a Half Men" numbers.

 

[Salazar]

I'm pretty sure I was downloading Gatchaman fansubs on torrent in 1973...

I had no idea.

*Bows to his elder*

 

[BocoDragon]

Not everything needs to have "Two and a Half Men" numbers.

This planet sucks ass.

 

[Anth0ny]

As long as I have my Dragon Box sets released, I'm happy. I guess milking Dragon Ball can only get them so far. Also, piracy, of course.

It's a shame One Piece isn't doing well over here, considering how it's taking Japan by storm.

 

[Branduil]

Well, if you want to be serious about making comparisons - anime in Japan is like HBO in America. It costs a lot of money to watch it when it airs and the DVDs cost twice the price of normal box sets.

Surely lots of people pirate HBO content as well... but it survives because it makes money by being niche.

Not everything needs to have "Two and a Half Men" numbers.

I don't think that's a good comparison. HBO has a good reputation.

 

[dimb]

Well, if you want to be serious about making comparisons - anime in Japan is like HBO in America.

Except the HBO stamp is usually a sign of quality. You pay a premium for a premium. For anime the actual quality of the show is often suspect.

 

[Lafiel]

Except the HBO stamp is usually a sign of quality. You pay a premium for a premium. For anime the actual quality of the show is often suspect.

Well anime does have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noitamina which is the closet equivalent to HBO in the anime realm.

Also I don't think the perceived quality of the entertainment has anything to do with his point!

 

[firehawk12]

I don't think that's a good comparison. HBO has a good reputation.

Well, I'm thinking of specific shows of course. People are willing to buy Madoka in droves because it's good, after all.

Well anime does have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noitamina which is the closet equivalent to HBO in the anime realm.

Also I don't think the perceived quality of the entertainment has anything to do with his point!

Yeah, basically. I mean, piracy has to exist in Japan because otherwise, fansubs wouldn't exist. Yet nerds still buy the stuff regardless.

(There's also the secondary merch market, but that's whole other story. In America, the only real show that does merch is Glee).
Of course, now we've moved on to talking about the Japanese market now. :lol

 

[Branduil]

Well anime does have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noitamina which is the closet equivalent to HBO in the anime realm.

Also I don't think the perceived quality of the entertainment has anything to do with his point!

I imagine HBO is massively profitable. Anime is not.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

This news doesn't surprise me. It seems as though interest in anime has been steadily decreasing in the last few years. For me, personally, I just became tired of seeing the same stuff over and over again.

No kidding. I remember when Pokemon first aired I was really attracted to how different the artstyle, and mannerisms were from typical western cartoons (not to mention storytelling techniques). It was the first time I had seen a cartoon with good-looking characters that didn't need some deformity to make them stick out (buck teeth, glasses, a big nose, etc.). Then of course Dragon Ball started to become popular and I was surprised to a see a good guy beat his opponent with nothing but muscles - all the cartoons I remember before that made sure to give the antagonist an achilles heal of some sort.

But as the medium became more widespread I began to notice a lot of similarities between different anime shows. What was a once original, and engaging soon became trite and uninteresting. Big round circle eyes? Peace sign indicating victory? Someone just said something embarassing? Lemme guess, the main characters instantly fall onto the ground with their feet straight up in the air... Yep, par for the course I suppose.

What really killed it though was when western cartoonists began to figure out what anime had that their shows didn't. Good looking characters started to catch on, as well as overarching plots that couldn't be solved in one or two episodes. Also, when Adult Swim needed to find new adult anime shows to replace Trigun, and Cowboy Bebop we were met the depressing realization that most adult animes were complete shit.

At this point there's really nothing Japan can do to penetrate the global market, other than ape westerners, but that pretty much goes for everything in their entertainment division. An adult cartoon with a coherent, serious story would be nice, but honestly, I don't think they have it in 'em.

 

[Conflict NZ]

Good, maybe this will stop them putting 3 episodes on a disc and charging $30 for it. I can buy a full season of a western show for $30-50, why should I be paying over $90 for a season of anime when the only thing being added is english voice and subtitles.

 

[Dresden]

Good, maybe this will stop them putting 3 episodes on a disc and charging $30 for it. I can bug a full season of a western show for $30-50, why should I be paying over $90 for a season of anime when the only thing being added is english voice and subtitles.

You guys are stuck in some odd twilight zone where the year is 2005 instead of 2011.

Season sets routinely go on sale for twenty bucks now.

At this point there's really nothing Japan can do to penetrate the global market, other than ape westerners, but that pretty much goes for everything in their entertainment division. An adult cartoon with a coherent, serious story would be nice, but honestly, I don't think they have it in 'em.

Yeah, damn those Japanese for not having the talent of westerners.

wut

 

[Anth0ny]

Good, maybe this will stop them putting 3 episodes on a disc and charging $30 for it. I can bug a full season of a western show for $30-50, why should I be paying over $90 for a season of anime when the only thing being added is english voice and subtitles.

Oh hey I remember 2003.

Season's of anime retail for ~$30. Hell, the

Spoiler

fucking awful

Orange brick Dragon Ball seasons sell for $20 a pop, ~40 episodes each set.

 

[firehawk12]

I imagine HBO is massively profitable. Anime is not.

I think Shaft and the other big studios have to be making some money though. I mean, most broadcasters are paid to air anime at 2 AM anyway.

 

[duckroll]

Good, maybe this will stop them putting 3 episodes on a disc and charging $30 for it. I can bug a full season of a western show for $30-50, why should I be paying over $90 for a season of anime when the only thing being added is english voice and subtitles.

There are a lot of reasons for this. I'm not sure if you're just saying this as a general complain, or if you're interested in knowing why, but there are good reasons. Unlike a western TV show which is produced in the US and basically already recoups production costs via advertising on a TV run (and subsequently syndication, etc), TV anime in Japan mostly rely on home video sales. It's also a pretty niche market with only a few thousand fans buying most of the time. So this leads to high home video prices in Japan.

Anime in the US are licensed from these Japanese companies, who also charge a ton of money for the license. Since anime on TV in the US is also non-existent, all costs are recouped via home video sales as well. The market is also pretty small, although larger than Japan's (for the average show, but not for the biggest shows in Japan). The Japanese licensor will not allow prices to go down too much overseas, for fear of reverse imports. The US distributor also cannot charge too little, because there aren't that many people buying anyway.

A US TV show can sell a shitload on DVD at 30-50 bucks a season. There are also multiple seasons if a series is popular, and it can keep going. A Japanese anime license typically covers a single show, which could be just 13 episodes in length. If they sell that entire series for just 30 dollars, think of how many units they will have to sell to recoup a typical license cost, before even profiting.

I think Shaft and the other big studios have to be making some money though. I mean, most broadcasters are paid to air anime at 2 AM anyway.

Shaft is not a big studio. And it is typically not the studios which profit from anime, but rather the license holders. Studios which also hold their own licenses, like Production IG and Sunrise, have an advantage over studios which just handle animation. In most cases, the one profiting the most from a big series would be a company like Aniplex.