One could argue that P!nk or Lily Allen do this. They are most often labeled hypocrites. I have no idea about Beyonce. But lets not pretend that popstars dont often send mixed messages.
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Annie Lennox: "Beyonce is feminist 'lite'"
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One could argue that P!nk or Lily Allen do this. They are most often labeled hypocrites. I have no idea about Beyonce. But lets not pretend that popstars dont often send mixed messages.
teruterubozu
Member
Honesty I don't know what pop divas think when they wear Victorian era Burlesque outfits. Hopefully, it's not about girl power.
If you read womanist / black feminist blogs, you'll see this idea as well, and one of the big things (relevant to this topic) is that black women's professed feminism is policed whereas white celebrities are bestowed the "feminist" label even when they run from it. There are other issues - plagiarism of blog posts / essays, failure to show up for issues like Trayvon's shooting or engage in anti-racism work (which black feminists rightly see as integral to feminism and necessary if one is going to call their feminism intersectional), the erasure of the intellectual contributions of black women to feminism (womanism, misogynoir, intersectionality, and matrix of domination), but I think a lot of it centers around white feminists whose feminism doesn't include a clear commitment to anti-racism as well.
Chuckie
Member
Lilly Allen is awesome. I am not sure what she is doing wrong though.
teruterubozu
Member
No I get it. It's just the equivalent of wearing a Hooters T-shirt to me.
teruterubozu
Member
My daughter. And that was Annie Lennox's point.
teruterubozu
Member
Yeah I know it's a convoluted discussion and I probably opened a can of worms. Sorry about that. I can't argue this thing logically without sounding like an ass so...
SteveWinwood
Member
he doesnt want his daughter to aspire to work at hooters because some celebrity wore a hooters shirt
Harping on fellow performers for using sex, being stupid and shallow.
Annie Lennox doesn't say how Beyoncé should act, nor does she pretend that Beyoncé represents a monolithic entity of black girls, nor does she say/imply that Beyoncé is followed by all black women.
Thats the difference between Annie Lennox and Bill OReilly.
hahah, no worries. When you said 'her, again?', I had a feeling you were talking about the more recently outspoken and erratic Miss O'Connor. She's the one who takes to picking fights over Twitter, and seems to be in the news a lot more than Annie, who seems to avoid the spotlight when it isn't about music or her causes.
This is pretty much my view. If the end result of Beyonce proclaiming herself feminist helps remove the stigma from the word and encourages others to be more accepting of female progress and empowerment, then good on her. Also, I don't think "lite feminism" is automatically wrong as I don't believe such a movement should be making itself exclusive by setting up high barriers of entry.
That said, I don't see any problem with the message in Ms. Lennox answer. She simply wants to know what Beyonce truly believes, and as someone said earlier, to step it up. And I'm certain she'd have similar comments for other young artists (she even says as much; you'll also notice in the second paragraph she speaks in plural, meaning Beyonce isn't her only target), but she was asked specifically about Beyonce.
Ol No Bones
Banned
She's mrs. Carter now.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Seeing as Annie doesn't really flesh out her argument about why Bey's not a full fledged feminist, I don't buy her assertion. It just smells like, "I don't fully understand/appreciate Bey's form of self-expression, so it's not authentic. Because reasons."
The issue is there's no evidence of Annie doing this before. There is evidence of Beyonce doing things opposite of the feminist movement to shield herself from criticism. She also seems to do more to promote herself with feminism than be active in the feminist movement. You can be critical of people even if they're a feminist.
block tower
Member
Hooters is a restaurant that is based around objectifying women. please drop the acceptance bullshit, a place like Hooters does not empower women nor does it make them look like anything more than sex objects.
n00bsauce87
Member
I wonder if Annie has ever heard of Womanism. Annie would never know because of obvious reasons. Even 50+ years later, things never change.
WTH? What are you trying to say here? What "obvious reasons"?
This. I swear people are being purposely obtuse in this thread.
It's the same when people say being a stripper or porn star is empowering when the reality of the job is quite abusive, toxic, and is dictated by male desire.
Byakuya769
Member
Glad someone is calling her on her bullshit.
n00bsauce87
Member
Does Annie Lennox have a history of being overly critical of POC feminists? Because I'm rather wary of taking one answer in an interview where she was specifically asked about a black artist and using that to toss her into the "white woman keeping women of color out of feminism" category.
Now if she has a history of such statements or actions, skewer away.
Now if she has a history of such statements or actions, skewer away.
Byakuya769
Member
Yes. Beyoncé empowering black women in her blonde wig and with her surgically "fixed" nose, allegedly. Wish Annie would step back.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
This is how boys on the internet argue about feminism though.
I know what womanism is, thanks. What I don't understand is how you came to the conclusion that Annie Lennox "would never know" what womanism is ("for obvious reasons").
I think it could be a positive avenue of advocacy for feminism. Although, mobilizing all of the pornstars and strippers to deliver a message of empowerment and self-acceptance is logistically improbable.
Apparently now it's not good enough for Beyoncé to be the only truly major current popstar (sorry Annie) to openly espouse feminist ideals in her work...she has to ally it with the appropriate level of intellectual rigour or it's not good enough.
This whole thing is such an absurd strawman anyway. At no point has anybody suggested that Beyoncé is the top of the feminist heap, only that the level of attacks on her sincerity are absurd and more than a little ridiculous when you consider:
The tea: Ultimately nobody who drags Beyoncé for not being the Right Kind of Feminist is actually bothered by the feminist underpinnings of her message, they're bothered by Beyoncé. I guess that when you're on top of the heap you're an easy target for the world's pressed, bitter, and jealous.
This whole thing is such an absurd strawman anyway. At no point has anybody suggested that Beyoncé is the top of the feminist heap, only that the level of attacks on her sincerity are absurd and more than a little ridiculous when you consider:
Lady Gaga said:
Taylor Swift said:
Katy Perry said:
The tea: Ultimately nobody who drags Beyoncé for not being the Right Kind of Feminist is actually bothered by the feminist underpinnings of her message, they're bothered by Beyoncé. I guess that when you're on top of the heap you're an easy target for the world's pressed, bitter, and jealous.
block tower
Member
exactly. im not saying there aren't women who enjoy their careers as strippers or porn actresses, because im sure there are planty; but that doesn't mean the reality of those jobs suddenly change.
The disgusting trivialisation of Tina Turner's domestic violence laid waste to any claim Beyonce has to being a decent person let alone a feminist.
"Hey, remember that time Tina Turner was physically assaulted and humiliated in public by her husband? Let's use that, it'll be fucking hilarious!"
"Hey, remember that time Tina Turner was physically assaulted and humiliated in public by her husband? Let's use that, it'll be fucking hilarious!"
I think it's off base to call Lennox bitter or jealous. I think it's fair to ask what Beyonce contributes to the cause when it isn't contributing to her. Also, sincerity isn't relative, so I don't understand why it matters that other female artists don't hold those same ideals. Asked about them, Lennox probably would have given a similar answer.
I've always seen feminism as something that can mean anything for any individual. I don't remember a feminism guidebook being released at any point so I don't know what standard she's being held to here.
I don't much like Beyonce but calling her version of feminism the "wrong" version seems a bit off to me. I mean I get it but I'm not sure how this helps the conversation. Having someone that big and influential even uttering the word is a big deal but to shoot it down is just dumb. You kind of want her doing that so her fans (who are vast and diverse) become more interested in the subject.
"You're doing it wrong" is about the laziest crit I've seen. She says that she wants to sit down with Beyonce. I kind of want to see that conversation.
I don't much like Beyonce but calling her version of feminism the "wrong" version seems a bit off to me. I mean I get it but I'm not sure how this helps the conversation. Having someone that big and influential even uttering the word is a big deal but to shoot it down is just dumb. You kind of want her doing that so her fans (who are vast and diverse) become more interested in the subject.
"You're doing it wrong" is about the laziest crit I've seen. She says that she wants to sit down with Beyonce. I kind of want to see that conversation.
I wasn't calling Annie Lennox bitter or jealous. Or maybe she is. I mean there's definitely something of a tendency to over-egg what Beyoncé is doing. Maybe Annie is annoyed by that when she did a lot for herself.
And the point is, Beyoncé gets a lot of shit, from Annie Lennox, from Emma Watson (LOL) for not being 'feminist enough' when there are popstars out there whose views on feminism are so off-base, so completely stupid, and yet they're never called out on it. Why is everyone so bothered by the fact that Beyoncé might not be intellectually deep enough for feminism when others are outright hostile to it?
Beyoncé's espousal of feminist ideals has drawn a level of bitterness and criticism that is completely out of kilter with the context that she is the only major popstar in the world including any kind of explicitly feminist messages in her work.
How do you reconcile this bullshit with the Drunk in Love lyrics?
You are missing some key facts from your argument: The interviewer is the one that brought up Beyonce, not Annie Lennox. Annie isn't targeting Beyonce specifically her, and even pluralizes the idea of feminist-lite to apply to more than just Beyonce. You should also link to some of the quotes you mentioned in your previous post, since I know that the Gaga quote is outdated (2009). This recent quote, about a song on her last album (I don't remember the name), speaks on her own feminism:
x
I don't particularly know what she's talking about, but she self-identitfies as a feminist, so I would assume that some folk here see this as being on par with the efforts of scholars and Beyonce's packaged feminism.
There are many targets more worthy of Annie's scorn than someone trying to do the right thing, even if they do it in a way she doesn't approve of. I think it's a shame when people with a platform choose to attack those who aren't perfect enough in their belief, rather than the actual problems they ought to be attacking.
You know she was asked specifically about Beyonce, right?
Did anyone actually read the OP?
Cosmonaut X
Member
While I don't disagree with the general sentiment, Lennox was asked directly what she thought of "someone like Beyonce" and particularly her performance at the MTV Awards.
You could perhaps argue that she could have been less judgemental and said something a bit more beige and safe (though her criticism wasn't particularly vicious and left the door open in a way some people don't when they make their disagreements public) but her position here was laid out in response to a question, not something she threw into the conversation to have a pop at Beyonce.
Perhaps because Beyonce is a major female artist who, just a few weeks ago, closed her show at a key industry awards ceremony standing in front of a massive display reading "FEMINIST"? I mean, if you're wanting to ask someone like Lennox about a new generation of pop stars and their relation to feminism, that's kinda a major note to hit, I'd guess.
Why does the interviewer bring up Beyoncé in particular, though? There's way more pressing questions about representations of feminism in pop culture than what Beyoncé isn't doing.
As some people are fond of constantly pointing out with a repetitiveness that borders on obsession, Beyoncé isn't the centre of the universe, so why does everyone act like she is?
Yes. I also know that one is not required to respond to questions in an interview. Annie is old enough to know when a reporter is asking her to take a dump on someone else, and she took the opportunity to do so.
Had to look up what she was talking about. Does seem a bit hashtaggy I guess
Is this for real? Lol I have side with Lennox here. It's borderline ridiculous, its completely about self promotion.
You'll be surprised about little girls and their following of pop stars, it's kind of disturbing to be honest.
Byakuya769
Member
That performance immediately followed a set for "[bitch] Bow Down."
Only feminist conversation Beyoncé generates is whether or not Beyoncé is feminist.
CadetMahoney
Member
Ok I loled at this more than I should have./
Beyoncé and Sony Music Entertainment are using feminism as a marketing tool, so of course, her positions on feminism come under special scrutiny.
Annie Lennox's and Emma Watsons criticisms are rather tame compared to what black feminists throw at Beyoncé, e.g. the Real Colored Girls ripped her "BeyHive Bottom Bitch Feminism" apart for being a "simplistic, pro-capitalist, structurally violent sampling of feminism."
Annie Lennox's and Emma Watsons criticisms are rather tame compared to what black feminists throw at Beyoncé, e.g. the Real Colored Girls ripped her "BeyHive Bottom Bitch Feminism" apart for being a "simplistic, pro-capitalist, structurally violent sampling of feminism."
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