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[Morrigan Stark]

There should logically be no issues with the sentiment that Nier, Grav Rush and Horizon have pretty compelling female leads no?

What is compelling about the Nier lead?

 

[Inuhanyou]

What is compelling about the Nier lead?

I really enjoyed how in the first Nier, Kaine was portrayed as a very complex individual. Very rough and tumble because of how she was treated in the past, but genuinely with a good heart that made her desperately hold onto the bonds she made with the rest of the gang, despite how much Weiss irritated her.

I can see the same kind of complex relationship developing between 2B, 9S and A2, and 2B in particular as the main heroine, having to find her own reason to exist aside from what her programming and what her orders are telling her is a very compelling thing i think will be a delight to see explored.

We already know that she obviously feels emotion and cares for others in a very intimate way despite paying lipservice to being a work droid, since we saw how she already genuinely attached to 9S just talking to her throughout the mission despite only knowing him for a short while. So i want to see that explored much more.

Is that a good answer?

 

[YianGaruga]

What is compelling about the Nier lead?

she's singlehandedly fighting gigantic robots and looks badass while doing it

that's pretty damn compelling

 

[Crossing Eden]

Relatively often.

And they completely disagree with your opinion about character designs that let's be honest, are ingrained with some form of sexism?

When you're alienating people on your side? There absolutely is

You realize that I regularly receive harassment from people on the other side right?

In fact between me making that post yesterday and now, I've gotten 12 PMs from people thanking me for that post, some claiming they were "too afraid" to say anything in fear of getting banned. Some of those PMs acknowledged that sometimes you make good arguments, but they just don't want to be on your side when you argue the way you do.

Congrats, I regularly receive pms on this site thanking me for my posts on social issues, sexism issues, racial issues, and my critique of gaming's still ingrained sexism. Genuinely do not care about people too afraid to discuss things on a discussion forum for fear of being banned if they cannot convey their opinion in a way that won't get them banned.

You played the "I'm black" card in this very thread. And don't get me wrong, I've played the "I'm a minority, I'm Jewish" card too, but only to give context to my opinion and not elevate it above anyone else's.

Because somebody insinuated that I was white and that I had issue with Japanese people as a whole.

But it doesn't make you an authority on it, especially when you're talking about the workflow and intent in other regions that you're completely ignorant to beyond cherry-picked articles that fit your narrative while ignoring the ones that don't.

Which is why I use terms like "more informed," like for instance, one of the best lessons learned was that people watching is absolutely something that should be done, aka "draw from life." I do so often, when the weather's nice out, (hate this time of year specifically actually as it impedes on this), and that warrants a walk just to observe and get inspired by the flow of people. You learn a lot of things, like the fact that men and women actually aren't that different at all in how they move, but then I get a dude ITT telling me that men and women move COMPLETELY differently and that I should go people watching and that Eastern devs put more thought into women by animating them as "female." Presumably he means giving women things like comically exaggerated hip sway, boob physics as secondary animation, attack animation like Cia from HW, etc., which again, can likely be choked up to how much media tries to represent that as reality.

Which in turn goes back to the point that you're attacking someone's person rather than their argument. You don't just do it with gaming, you do it with politics and other stuff here.

So you're saying that the sexist mindsets and excuses shouldn't be pointed out? And yes I do do it with politics, if you're referring to my opinions on Trump supporters, yes I do not genuinely believe that you can support such a man and not at the very least be passively ok with his rhetoric and that is absolutely not ok in anyway shape or form.

95% is a gross exaggeration, and on the rare occasions you do, you dismiss all links with counter-claims as either biased or ignore it outright despite them often coming from unbiased sources.

No it's honestly 95%, I genuinely tend to have a google tab open specifically for cross referencing information, it's how I get links and articles in a timely fashion.

Okay, I guess things have changed since this post earlier in the year (and the rest of that thread is similarly filled with misinformation about anime and the industry from you)?

So if someone said that they don't play shooter games anymore but chose to play a shooter game you'd take issue with that or would hold them to that statement as if it's law? Also a bit creepy truth be told how much you're following my posts and how much you're holding onto them as if I can never at any point change my mind or accept recommendations. :|

And in another thread from earlier in the year, there's this post asserting how much more "mature" western cartoons are than anime while later in the thread confirming that you don't even watch anime.

Even with the few anime I watch I still hold that opinion that due to a lot of melodrama, a lot of stuff is out in the open, like there's nothing iv'e seen recently with the emotional buildup of Rick & Morty.

You also go on to say there's no point to a wide range of genres in animation because it "doesn't suit the medium", an absolutely bizarre opinion coming from an animator.

When a lot of things aren't very good especially when I ask others how something is then I won't watch them. When things are both reception wise and all seems well generally, I will, it's really that simple.

Huh? Where in my post did I insinuate that you weren't black?

Not you, that ninja dude, I quoted the wrong person when I wrote "I'm not white." in that post.

How is that not moving goalposts when the original point was about less women in the industry, which is a false fact?

It was a false fact that I admitted was false but pointed out the working conditions.

You're placing more importance on a fictional character's lack of agency due to who she was designed by than an actual living breathing human's.

Because there's a difference between representation in media and agency of people irl who actually can make decisions on what they wear daily. Namely, because the majority of women aren't going outside and dressing for the male gaze. Meanwhile, many characters are designed with the male gaze in mind. That's an issue as the latter has an effect on the perception of the former. And then we get phrases like the following:

More sexually appealing = more money.

Western games are like this: Design male characters as a male, and design female character also as a male. See Injustice.

Japanese games: Design male as a male, female as a female.

Or in much more extreme examples the entire movement that was created as part of a huge effort to keep women out of the gaming industry whether it's real women or characters who are positive examples of representation.

Do it as loud as you want, but please know what you're talking about first.

I do. For instance you say my posts reek of misinformation yet quoted a post from months ago that was full of completely accurate information, for instance, a lot of studios in Japan this is the typical workflow for the creation of an anime. Notice how things like voice recording is something done during post production, which I noted, is the opposite of what's typically supposed to be done for animation involving dialogue since the inception of voice recording in the animation medium. So where was I wrong with that statement? If you genuinely would like to continue this line of discussion I'd go with a PM as this has been a huge derail.

Heeey guys, what's going on in this threa-

...uh...

huh.

Its at times like these that i wonder how such a fairly innocuous thread topic can get derailed so completely. Like i skipped straight from page 1 to the most recent one and its dumpster fire.

There should logically be no issues with the sentiment that Nier, Grav Rush and Horizon have pretty compelling female leads no?

My sentiment is that Nier's protagonist, has very little chance of being very convincingly compelling, Kat despite being compelling is unfortunately sexualized via the typical things like sexy alternate outfits which undermines a by all accounts, genuinely positive representation of women, and Horizon seems to have the best chance of not only being a great game but being compelling as a protagonist despite my worry that like the other Guerilla games, the lore will be incredibly interesting while the story itself is bland ala Killzone despite the new writer's involvement.

 

[Karkador]

I'm communicating as I have from the moment I began directly confronting and arguing down the racist statements and logic you're defending. Exactingly, thoroughly and stridently. I am certainly defending against your attempt to silence my confrontation of racism, in order to benefit the racist and make things comfortable for them, by trying to frame this discomfort as the pertinent problem. You seem defensive by defending it. By your very own logic that defensiveness must make you culpable, guilty and accountable.

FWIW, I think your "its racist" commentary is about as overblown and lost-in-orbit as the talk about Phil Fish when he said Japanese games suck. Feels like dejavu; in either case, I don't feel like defending a crass argument....but you're not right, either.

 

[Yasumi]

8) Objectification of women in games and in cosplays are two ridiculously different stuff. Cosplays can wear whatever they want. They can even make a sexy barney because they are real people choosing to go to a real place in real life. Games have way more than just the design ... the choices, the script, the camera and they can ALL be objectified too. Their design is made to be accepted by a demographic, to be approved by men in suits and dozens of other stuff that makes awesome designs lost in the sea of genericness

Did you really just try to dismiss thebaroness's arguments by implying her very real experiences regarding objectification aren't as valid as those perpetuated against fictional characters, because she can choose to be objectified? That's kind of what it seems like.

 

[Inuhanyou]

My sentiment is that Nier's protagonist, has very little chance of being very convincingly compelling, Kat despite being compelling is unfortunately sexualized via the typical things like sexy alternate outfits which undermines a by all accounts, genuinely positive representation of women, and Horizon seems to have the best chance of not only being a great game but being compelling as a protagonist despite my worry that like the other Guerilla games, the lore will be incredibly interesting while the story itself is bland ala Killzone despite the new writer's involvement.

Based on the previous Yoko Taro games, he subverts expectations and tropes pretty well though, especially in regards to characters, atleast IMO.

Besides the outfits being too revealing for your taste, is there anything about Kat that you particularly dislike other than that? She was a very competent and strong girl in the first game(out of place cliche anime shower scene nonwidstanding)

I'm trying to not fall into the trap some other poster have of using terrible arguments, and am trying to figure out some of these comments i'm seeing.

 

[Karkador]

Based on the previous Yoko Taro games, he subverts expectations and tropes pretty well though, especially in regards to characters, atleast IMO.

Besides the outfits being too revealing for your taste, is there anything about Kat that you particularly dislike other than that? She was a very competent and strong girl in the first game(out of place cliche anime shower scene nonwidstanding)

This is inevitably gonna knock more points off some people's personal score of a game than others. It seems like we often have to make excuses for stuff like this. It's ridiculously common.

 

[Inuhanyou]

This is inevitably gonna knock more points off some people's personal score of a game than others. It seems like we often have to make excuses for stuff like this. It's ridiculously common.

Yeah its very common. I didn't bat an eyelash at it, but i did roll my eyes a bit just cause i didn't expect it in this sort of game.

Someone who i respect a lot recently told me about something called 'normalization'.

In the sense that you can be very used to something without understanding how people who are not used to something may perceive that thing, and how it may be perceived as more positive or negative outside of the sphere you are in being fully used to the concept.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Based on the previous Yoko Taro games, he subverts expectations and tropes pretty well though, especially in regards to characters, atleast IMO.

Besides the outfits being too revealing for your taste, is there anything about Kat that you particularly dislike other than that? She was a very competent and strong girl in the first game(out of place cliche anime shower scene nonwidstanding)

I'm trying to not fall into the trap some other poster have of using terrible arguments, and am trying to figure out some of these comments i'm seeing.

No actually she's pretty cool but it's a shame to see that stuff undermined by stuff like fetishistic alts, (apparently worse in the sequel), a pointless fanservice bath scene etc., it serves as an example that these things can be undermined by the creator. I mean ffs they made a "no memory" arc genuinely interesting. And then there's the other designs in the game like Raven and Kali that are just plain "nope" for me as character designs. And I think Yoko Taro subverts expectations by being completely out of left field with the way he writes characters. And no in a way like Kojima where some of it makes sense but apparently I have to read external documents to understand the protagonist of DK3. And then that somehow justifies some of the most cringeworthy dialogue that isn't even edgy it's just, "who wrote this?!" Like Zero asking four if her vagina stinking is the reason she doesn't have sex with her intoner frequently, like I understand that the point is that she just stated that she's able to stay clam and then immediately breaks down at a childish insult but that entire convo could be done better. Like no thank you. Honestly I've noticed that you've seriously gotten a lot better in genuinely trying to have a valid discussion about why you find these things interesting while acknowledgement of where they falter in terms of representation. Kudos.

 

[Messofanego]

I really enjoyed how in the first Nier, Kaine was portrayed as a very complex individual. Very rough and tumble because of how she was treated in the past, but genuinely with a good heart that made her desperately hold onto the bonds she made with the rest of the gang, despite how much Weiss irritated her.

I can see the same kind of complex relationship developing between 2B, 9S and A2, and 2B in particular as the main heroine, having to find her own reason to exist aside from what her programming and what her orders are telling her is a very compelling thing i think will be a delight to see explored.

We already know that she obviously feels emotion and cares for others in a very intimate way despite paying lipservice to being a work droid, since we saw how she already genuinely attached to 9S just talking to her throughout the mission despite only knowing him for a short while. So i want to see that explored much more.

Is that a good answer?

I hope the game explains why as a robot she is dressed that way and gives her plenty of depth, the likes of Major in Ghost In The Shell.

 

[sensui-tomo]

No actually she's pretty cool but it's a shame to see that stuff undermined by stuff like fetishistic alts, (apparently worse in the sequel), a pointless fanservice bath scene etc., it serves as an example that these things can be undermined by the creator. I mean ffs they made a "no memory" arc genuinely interesting. And then there's the other designs in the game like Raven and Kali that are just plain "nope" for me as character designs. And I think Yoko Taro subverts expectations by being completely out of left field with the way he writes characters. And no in a way like Kojima where some of it makes sense but apparently I have to read external documents to understand the protagonist of DK3. And then that somehow justifies some of the most cringeworthy dialogue that isn't even edgy it's just, "who wrote this?!" Like Zero asking four if her vagina stinking is the reason she doesn't have sex frequently? Like no thank you.

Let me tell you that dialog is the reason i feel that Dk3 is shit compared to Drakengard, like how the hell do people go from dk3 language to dk1 where the worse you hear is some god taunting you for your sister having sexual feelings for you, and probably have the word fuck used once if at all. (at least Nier made sense to have foul dialog since its location and what not)... Dk3 was in every way(barring music) a huge colossal dissapointment compared to its predecessors (except dk2... which was just bleh and is never counted in the yoko taro stuff)
Also english localization kinda messed up characters in DK3 (which was a shame considering how good nier was)

 

[Crossing Eden]

Let me tell you that dialog is the reason i feel that Dk3 is shit compared to Drakengard, like how the hell do people go from dk3 language to dk1 where the worse you hear is some god taunting you for your sister having sexual feelings for you, and probably have the word fuck used once if at all. (at least Nier made sense to have foul dialog since its location and what not)

Exactly, I don't quite understand it. I mean, it's not very funny either. Or very well acted. I feel that few games ever genuinely write unapologetic vulgar protagonists very well. I always figured that the various gameplay mechanics are why Yoko is famous, not the story, like Nier's various attempts at emulating other famous games like Resident Evil out of nowhere.

 

[LotusHD]

I still don't agree at all with the notion that a few alternate outfits suddenly completely undermines or ruins Kat as a character, especially considering the context that gets her into the majority of said outfits, as well as considering her character/personality in general. It'd be one thing if the entirety of the game was blatantly objectifying her or did other crude things. There's nothing inherently wrong with her having a cute or sexy costume or two (Or any female character tbh), especially when it's not the only outfits she has, and when they're all given to her in a rather tame and respectful manner. Although of course, this defense gets complicated with the reveal of that random Phantasy outfit, but at least the West isn't getting it I guess... Not that I don't understand that at the very least, skepticism and such is a given whenever a female character is in a outfit that is considered revealing, sexy, too cute, etc., but I can't say that her outfits in general have crossed any particular line. It shouldn't be generalized as showing skin = shitty design, or that a character only truly has a chance at being a positive example of female representation if they show no skin at all. (Hence my earlier confusion at Aloy's midriff also being considered out of line, I genuinely did not know that would be an issue) It'll always be a case by case basis imo, as opposed to some of the posts in the thread intentionally or inadvertently framing it as showing skin = bad.

I do wonder what girls/women in general think of Kat and her outfits though, because of course it's a possibility that I'm completely off in what I find to be a compelling character all things considered. That being said, regardless of what those opinions are, I'm not blind. Stuff like the shower scene and such do of course stick out, especially due to the first game overall handling things in a competent manner for the most manner.

 

[sensui-tomo]

Exactly, I don't quite understand it. I mean, it's not very funny either. Or very well acted. I feel that few games ever genuinely write unapologetic vulgar protagonists very well. I always figured that the various gameplay mechanics are why Yoko is famous, not the story, like Nier's various attempts at emulating other famous games like Resident Evil out of nowhere.

Basically this is how dialog went in yoko taro games, Drakengard is a dark fantasy ... so dialog you'd expect from maybe a FF4/6 title with Damn inserted but nothing about "vagina smelling nasty for sex" or whatever to Nier(messed up future apocalypse earth) which i can understand some people saying fuck you to a book who got mind controlled. .. to drakengard 3 which takes place earlier in Drakengard 1's exact world.... but has language more foul than the game that takes place in future earth.... also piss jokes with a dragon. I felt so bad for my friend who wanted that game as a gift that i bought him another gift to make up for how shit Dk3 was.
The reason people like the story is maybe because we/they like dark endings... kinda like Gen Urobuchi animes (fate zero/ psycho pass/madoka magica/etc) Gameplay for me has always been shit until the new nier, since its been a poor man's *restricted* dynasty warriors like gameplay. Yoko also isnt really famous, just kinda big for niche groups, kinda like how the 999 series is big and that writer/dev.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I hope the game explains why as a robot she is dressed that way and gives her plenty of depth, the likes of Major in Ghost In The Shell.

I don't think that the design the Bravely default artist gave the characters has any actual meaning in the world despite being the outfits the droids are given, but i think it would be great to see an in universe explanation definitely, even if it would probably be out there are strange.

No actually she's pretty cool but it's a shame to see that stuff undermined by stuff like fetishistic alts, (apparently worse in the sequel), a pointless fanservice bath scene etc., it serves as an example that these things can be undermined by the creator. I mean ffs they made a "no memory" arc genuinely interesting. And then there's the other designs in the game like Raven and Kali that are just plain "nope" for me as character designs. And I think Yoko Taro subverts expectations by being completely out of left field with the way he writes characters. And no in a way like Kojima where some of it makes sense but apparently I have to read external documents to understand the protagonist of DK3. And then that somehow justifies some of the most cringeworthy dialogue that isn't even edgy it's just, "who wrote this?!" Like Zero asking four if her vagina stinking is the reason she doesn't have sex with her intoner frequently, like I understand that the point is that she just stated that she's able to stay clam and then immediately breaks down at a childish insult but that entire convo could be done better. Like no thank you. Honestly I've noticed that you've seriously gotten a lot better in genuinely trying to have a valid discussion about why you find these things interesting while acknowledgement of where they falter in terms of representation. Kudos.

While i don't personally think that Kat's outfit itself, or the other girl's outfits are by definition undermining, from your perspective i can see how it would be concerning. Especially in reagards to Drakengard 3...yeah i can't defend that. I get the point but...it just fell flat for me in general. My only real enjoyment of the game came from actually seeing Zero become more humanized as you went through playthroughs, and also to see how Accord's actions were able to change the meanings of certain things.

But in general, i think a lot of the game's effort was poor. It felt like poor taste just to be shock value and weird. And it doesn't work when your budget was so small i could have probably paid for the game itself.

It just made the game feel even more cheap, and it didn't really have to be that way.

This is why i am feeling like Nier:A can hopefully be a course correction, since Nier is much more reigned in with its themes and concepts and not as out there batshit insane as drakengard 1-3 were.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I still don't agree at all with the notion that a few alternate outfits suddenly completely undermines or ruins Kat as a character, especially considering the context that gets her into the majority of said outfits, as well as considering her character/personality in general. It'd be one thing if the entirety of the game was blatantly objectifying her or did other crude things. There's nothing inherently wrong with her having a cute or sexy costume or two (Or any female character tbh), especially when it's not the only outfits she has, and when they're all given to her in a rather tame and respectful manner. Although of course, this defense gets complicated with the reveal of that random Phantasy outfit, but at least the West isn't getting it I guess... Not that I don't understand that at the very least, skepticism and such is a given whenever a female character is in a outfit that is considered revealing, sexy, too cute, etc., but I can't say that her outfits in general have crossed any particular line. It shouldn't be generalized as showing skin = shitty design, or that a character only truly has a chance at being a positive example of female representation if they show no skin at all. (Hence my earlier confusion at Aloy's midriff also being considered out of line, I genuinely did not know that would be an issue) It'll always be a case by case basis imo, as opposed to some of the posts in the thread intentionally or inadvertently framing it as showing skin = bad.

I do wonder what girls/women in general think of Kat and her outfits though, because of course it's a possibility that I'm completely off in what I find to be a compelling character all things considered. That being said, regardless of what those opinions are, I'm not blind. Stuff like the shower scene and such do of course stick out, especially due to the first game overall handling things in a competent manner for the most manner.

I think it undermines because so many characters already have such outfits and are disproportionately female. Like GR has a nice weird aesthetic so to see that undermined by "Kat you need to dress in this sexy spy outfit to blend in for this mission." It's like pretty transparent why they came up with that and drew this artwork:

hell this straight up contradicts the shower scene as she seems a bit modest when she actively covers herself up after losing her towel yet here she's wearing an outfit in the public that would fly open much more easily than a towel all things considered. This is what I mean by undermine as these two things contradict each other. Like that scene in AOTC where Padme is trying her damndest to reject Anakin but is wearing a bdsm-lite outfit for no reason.

Basically this is how dialog went in yoko taro games, Drakengard is a dark fantasy ... so dialog you'd expect from maybe a FF4/6 title with Damn inserted but nothing about "vagina smelling nasty for sex" or whatever to Nier(messed up future apocalypse earth) which i can understand some people saying fuck you to a book who got mind controlled. .. to drakengard 3 which takes place earlier in Drakengard 1's exact world.... but has language more foul than the game that takes place in future earth.... also piss jokes with a dragon. I felt so bad for my friend who wanted that game as a gift that i bought him another gift to make up for how shit Dk3 was.
The reason people like the story is maybe because we/they like dark endings... kinda like Gen Urobuchi animes (fate zero/ psycho pass/madoka magica/etc) Gameplay for me has always been shit until the new nier, since its been a poor man's *restricted* dynasty warriors like gameplay. Yoko also isnt really famous, just kinda big for niche groups, kinda like how the 999 series is big and that writer/dev.

Oh ok. So there's a regression there? Based on Nier 1 and DR3 I assumed that was how the dialogue typically was across his projects but it's apparently a more recent phenomenon?

While i don't personally think that Kat's outfit itself, or the other girl's outfits are by definition undermining, from your perspective i can see how it would be concerning. Especially in reagards to Drakengard 3...yeah i can't defend that. I get the point but...it just fell flat for me in general. My only real enjoyment of the game came from actually seeing Zero become more humanized as you went through playthroughs, and also to see how Accord's actions were able to change the meanings of certain things.

But in general, i think a lot of the game's effort was poor. It felt like poor taste just to be shock value and weird. And it doesn't work when your budget was so small i could have probably paid for the game itself.

It just made the game feel even more cheap, and it didn't really have to be that way.

This is why i am feeling like Nier:A can hopefully be a course correction, since Nier is much more reigned in with its themes and concepts and not as out there batshit insane as drakengard 1-3 were.

I agree that Nier doesn't seem anywhere near as ridiculous as DRG, but it's still pretty out there. I'm hoping Platinum has some effect in that regard and while their games are over the top they're usually not over the top who and how the fuck is this a thing?[/I If that makes any sense.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Out of all 3, the only one I have preordered is Horizon. As a guy who was obsessed with robots and dinosaurs as a kid, I can't wait to hunt robot dinosaurs

Nier Automata looks great, but I usually steer away from technical action games from Platinum because I have a bad right wrist that hurts like fuck after playing a game like DMC. Gravity Daze 2.... well I liked flying in the first game, but I need to lessen time playing open world games since next year will be a busy year for me and my wife.

I generally steer away from games with designs that focus on female sexuality, probably due to the fact I was bought up conservative but honestly my first focus on how the portrayal of characters. This is probably why I'm pretty alright with Cindy in FFXV, but annoyed at Luna who turned out to be just another miss perfect who spends her whole life preparing for marriage with Noctis.

 

[Serenade_King]

I hope the game explains why as a robot she is dressed that way and gives her plenty of depth, the likes of Major in Ghost In The Shell.

Don't know what the explanation will be but I do like the contrast of the human robots being so advance that they have emotions and have clothing that really serve no purpose for combat while the Alien robots look really simple and you seem to see the "Machine Life forms" evolve with the diferent types you encounters. In fiction it's usually the Aliens the ones with technology far more advanced than what we humans got so I appreciate the route this game is going for.

 

[sensui-tomo]

Oh ok. So there's a regression there? Based on Nier 1 and DR3 I assumed that was how the dialogue typically was across his projects but it's apparently a more recent phenomenon?

Story wise it makes no sense why Dk3 should have the dialog that nier has... its like going from a dragon quest 8/ff12 world (drakengard 1) to FF15(nier) which makes sense for some dialog to DmC (why the fuck is the dialog this cringy) in a game where its the literal past of the prim and proper game.
To sum it up: Dialog was better in Dk1, made sense in Nier, was fucking out of place and wrong in Drakengard 3 (hell english localization made Zero a different character from her japanese counterpart, in terms of tone)
Nier automata is the odd wild card, sense we're going to see some aspects of both series in it due to story reasons, I just hope we dont have the stupid dialog from Dk3 and the worst we get is probably the funny line Kaine says to Weiss .

 

[Platy]

Did you really just try to dismiss thebaroness's arguments by implying her very real experiences regarding objectification aren't as valid as those perpetuated against fictional characters, because she can choose to be objectified? That's kind of what it seems like.

I never said anything like that.

This is because of the "complaining about fictional character designs = slut shaming real people" and that is absolutely FALSE because real people and fictional character designs are 2 completely different things.
Cosplay arguments (including the classic "this character design is good because it has cosplays !" from the other thread) are completely irrelevant while talking about fictional character designs in fictional spaces.

That being said, objetification in games does leads to normalization of harassment of cosplayers but that is a talk for another thread =P

 

[SolidSnakex]

I think it undermines because so many characters already have such outfits and are disproportionately female. Like GR has a nice weird aesthetic so to see that undermined by "Kat you need to dress in this sexy spy outfit to blend in for this mission." It's like pretty transparent why they came up with that and drew this artwork:

hell this straight up contradicts the shower scene as she seems a bit modest when she actively covers herself up after losing her towel yet here she's wearing an outfit in the public that would fly open much more easily than a towel all things considered. This is what I mean by undermine as these two things contradict each other. Like that scene in AOTC where Padme is trying her damndest to reject Anakin but is wearing a bdsm-lite outfit for no reason.phenomenon?

This is the second time you've posted that art, but it's not from anyone on the Gravity Rush team. It was done as a fan tribute by Yusuke Kozaki, the character designer behind No More Heroes and Fire Emblem.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I agree that Nier doesn't seem anywhere near as ridiculous as DRG, but it's still pretty out there. I'm hoping Platinum has some effect in that regard and while their games are over the top they're usually not over the top who and how the fuck is this a thing?[/I If that makes any sense.

I think having Platinum on the project and appealing to a wider audience this time will reign Yoko Taro in somewhat in what he puts into the game. But i still think there needs to be a very implicit balance between 'groundedness', and the general allure of Yoko Taro and how he approaches game themes and conventions.

If they can do it right, i think it'll be really remarkable.

 

[Maxinas]

This is probably why I'm pretty alright with Cindy in FFXV, but annoyed at Luna who turned out to be just another miss perfect who spends her whole life preparing for marriage with Noctis.

Well, the developers are more to blame for rushing the story and not allowing her to flesh out more.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Well, the developers are more to blame for rushing the story and not allowing her to flesh out more.

Honestly, from what I've seen from her I doubt they could do much. She was the worst character in the game for me by far.

Hope they can prove me wrong with future patches but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Ganon Dragmire]

Yes, 2B is an awful lazy design.
Just like these operators:

and their commander:

this is the only good one so far in the game:

so of course she's not playable.

After D3 I have no hope for this game except for the gameplay and that's because of Platinum

 

[LotusHD]

Yes, 2B is an awful lazy design.
Just like these operators:

and their commander:

this is the only good one so far in the game:

so of course she's not playable.

After D3 I have no hope for this game except for the gameplay and that's because of Platinum

inb4 that's the explanation for why 2B looks the way she does lol

 

[Crossing Eden]

This is the second time you've posted that art, but it's not from anyone on the Gravity Rush team. It was done as a fan tribute by Yusuke Kozaki, the character designer behind No More Heroes and Fire Emblem.

Wait are you serious? It looks incredibly similar to the other character artwork. But explains quite a bit more about the framing and why it shows up whenever you search for the outfit. Still, it's really out of place, her posing in the official artwork is a quite a bit more sexualized than the others on top of the outfit, with the arched back and such compared to the other outfits.

I think having Platinum on the project and appealing to a wider audience this time will reign Yoko Taro in somewhat in what he puts into the game. But i still think there needs to be a very implicit balance between 'groundedness', and the general allure of Yoko Taro and how he approaches game themes and conventions.

If they can do it right, i think it'll be really remarkable.

We can only hope. Then there's the hope that Platinum's gameplay style can work in an open world context. Nuts that they're making two open world games simultaneously.

 

[Serenade_King]

.

Didn't know about that last picture, so wierd seeing a gun in the game. It makes sence since the humans are "modern" again but it never crossed my mind that there actually would be guns in the game.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Yes, 2B is an awful lazy design.
Just like these operators:

and their commander:

this is the only good one so far in the game:

so of course she's not playable.

After D3 I have no hope for this game except for the gameplay and that's because of Platinum

I actually like the distinct design split from the battle androids/command station operators an the relatively normal clothes of the resistance earth human beings

Spoiler

still don't know how there are existing humans in this world though

Didn't know about that last picture, so wierd seeing a gun in the game. It makes sence since the humans are "modern" again but it never crossed my mind that there actually would be guns in the game.

Yeah. seeing an AK 8k years in the future is just strange even knowing the pods have guns attached to them.

Even though it makes sense with the generic guerrilla fighter rebel theme.

I hope Anemone is a very interesting NPC...but based on Nier's past history with NPC's, i generally am scared for her ability to not die in a horrible fashion at some point.

 

[Serenade_King]

Spoiler

still don't know how there are existing humans in this world though

Spoiler

That's the twist! The "humans" are actually the aliens Emil fought, but after the fight made peace with them and the ones we fight are another race of aliens also invading the earth!... or IDK, maybe some humans went to the moon before the whole Shade thing happened and froze themselves or something

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

You're really stretching to say Kat is sexualized. The only thing I've seen so far is that garbage ass PSO2 alt she has in 2 and probably the Spy outfit from 1. And even then, she doesn't actually do anything in said outfits that would be considered "pandering" or "obscene"

 

[vivekTO]

I have read quiet a few first page , but then it got derailed and it sort of depressing, I will not talk about other two games , but what's the problem with the horizon one.

Are you guys(mostly yes) suggesting that showing naval is sexualized . I can see that its sexualized in a way if its accompanied by ass hugging tight pants or cleavage showing shirt. But that alloy armor is totally justifiable.

There is stealth section in games , night gameplay and less armor on midrif provides for better tactical movement , (not saying realistically in game as the clothing has little to no impact on movements) but still , why there is so much vitriol over it.

Next you will say that Indian women who wear sarees are sexualized as they wear them below naval, from where do you guys come from , middle east??

Sorry if this is offending to someone but i am really getting this vibe here and its a little depressing.

 

[MCD]

Yes, 2B is an awful lazy design.
Just like these operators:

and their commander:

this is the only good one so far in the game:

so of course she's not playable.

After D3 I have no hope for this game except for the gameplay and that's because of Platinum

So fully clothed = only good design now?

The two women you say are lazy fit the game well unlike fully clothed soldier there.

 

[Serenade_King]

You're really stretching to say Kat is sexualized. The only thing I've seen so far is that garbage ass PSO2 alt she has in 2.

I know a lot of people hate it but when I saw the picture I actually liked it, expecially how her hair looks while she uses the costume... then I saw the video where she uses it and noticed that those "shields" aren't on her arms but instead just there at her sides looking wierd and clipping with her hands.

 

[Narag]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYtoB0kIIUE

jesus christ

 

[Crossing Eden]

You're really stretching to say Kat is sexualized. The only thing I've seen so far is that garbage ass PSO2 alt she has in 2 and probably the Spy outfit from 1. And even then, she doesn't actually do anything in said outfits that would be considered "pandering" or "obscene"

Like similar outfits in other games those outfits existing in general is straight up pandering. Compared to other characters in other games she's light on fanservice but that fanservice is still there. When they could've gone with the more outlandish and stylish alts. You're right she doesn't do anything obscene, but why are those outfits even there?

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Other than the Spy costume, I really like all the other alternate costumes in Gravity Rush 1 & 2

http://gravityrush.wikia.com/wiki/Costumes

 

[LotusHD]

Other than the Spy costume, I really like all the other alternate costumes in Gravity Rush 1 & 2

http://gravityrush.wikia.com/wiki/Costumes

I'm hoping like hell that she'll actually sing in the game for whatever side mission gives her the Jazz Singer outfit. She probably will though.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'm hoping like hell that she'll actually sing in the game for whatever side mission gives her the Jazz Singer outfit. She probably will though.

 

[LotusHD]

You right, I dunno why I convinced myself that that could possibly be just stuff made for just the trailer, when practically everything else looks like it comes straight from the game lol

 

[Karkador]

You're really stretching to say Kat is sexualized. The only thing I've seen so far is that garbage ass PSO2 alt she has in 2.

Is it really a stretch to say that, in Kat's default costume, the bare legs, the high heels and swirly motifs running through her body like a highlighter around her chest and legs isn't meant to sexualize the character?
It's not by any means the most sexualized design out there, but even this tame example shows a design priority on sex appeal over anything.

 

[SolidSnakex]

You right, I dunno why I convinced myself that that could possibly be just stuff made for just the trailer, when practically everything else looks like it comes straight from the game lol

It's definitely from the game as they posted this for one of the livestreams and it wasn't shown in the trailer

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

Like similar outfits in other games those outfits existing in general is straight up pandering. Compared to other characters in other games she's light on fanservice but that fanservice is still there. When they could've gone with the more outlandish and stylish alts. You're right she doesn't do anything obscene, but why are those outfits even there?

Its such an absolutely minor aspect though. So minor that you tried to pass of fan art of a costume as an example due to the actual game having so very little of it. Its not like she has the maid outfit on and goes "Welcome home, Master" and shit. As for why they're present, to give her an alt costume to accompany the story line of each of the DLCs? Its not like the DLC is just the costume and that's it. I'm pretty sure they thought "some people would like to see Kat in X costume" but I really don't think its this character-betraying, 100% pandering device that you seem to think it is. As I said before, the only ones I think go too far are the Spy and PSO2 ones and even then, she never does anything suggestive, obscene, etc. These (mostly tame) designs aren't just wrong for simply existing, imo. If you feel that they are really that much of an issue however, we can just agree to disagree right here because the conversation won't go anywhere.

 

[PaulloDEC]

People talk about Kat's alt outfits as being examples of unnecessary sexualisation, but I'm still firmly on team fuck-high-heels.

Next to falling at high velocity, the two things Kat does most are A) run around and B) fall onto hard surfaces from great heights. Her poor goddamn ankles.

 

[LotusHD]

People talk about Kat's alt outfits as being examples of unnecessary sexualisation, but I'm still firmly on team fuck-high-heels.

Next to falling at high velocity, the two things Kat does most are A) run around and B) fall onto hard surfaces from great heights. Her poor goddamn ankles.

I dunno how she survives crashing down onto the ground like that. I just assumed she has an invisible gravity field or w/e that shields her from shit like that.

 

[neohwa]

Compared to other characters in other games she's light on fanservice but that fanservice is still there. When they could've gone with the more outlandish and stylish alts. You're right she doesn't do anything obscene, but why are those outfits even there?

I don't understand what you are asking.

Developers make the game and hope people would buy them. More content = potentially more sales. That's good for business.

You don't like them because reasons? Don't buy the game. Don't support them. Go protest on the streets.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It would be annoying if velocity was actually realistic though. You would keep dying from errant crashes into geometry if you didn't stop yourself short, and even then in real life, you would break limbs and damage vital organs whiplashing yourself in that manner continuously. This game is nowhere near realistic...

...

What were we discussing again?

 

[Condom]

Kat felt like a bit of a silly girl in GR1 but nothing sexualized or something. Just a fun character with cool powers.

The lack of a cheesy love story etc. helped a lot. It's been some years since I finished it though.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Its such an absolutely minor aspect though. So minor that you tried to pass of fan art of a costume as an example due to the actual game having so very little of it. Its not like she has the maid outfit on and goes "Welcome home, Master" and shit. As for why they're present, to give her an alt costume to accompany the story line of each of the DLCs? Its not like the DLC is just the costume and that's it. I'm pretty sure they thought "some people would like to see Kat in X costume" but I really don't think its this character-betraying, 100% pandering device that you seem to think it is. As I said before, the only ones I think go too far are the Spy and PSO2 ones and even then, she never does anything suggestive, obscene, etc. These (mostly tame) designs aren't just wrong for simply existing, imo. If you feel that they are really that much of an issue however, we can just agree to disagree right here because the conversation won't go anywhere.

I'm aware that the dlc is not just the costume and that's it and that they try to provide reasons for Kat wearing different outfits in different situations. But remember that even small examples can serve to undermine a character. I already stated that I wasn't aware that that artwork was fan art due to how much it genuinely resembles the official character artwork. I mean, there's tame, and there's dressing a character in a skin tight suit with the zipper pulled more than halfway down her body revealing that she's at the very least, not wearing a bra.

People talk about Kat's alt outfits as being examples of unnecessary sexualisation, but I'm still firmly on team fuck-high-heels.

Next to falling at high velocity, the two things Kat does most are A) run around and B) fall onto hard surfaces from great heights. Her poor goddamn ankles.

A fair criticism of her design.

I don't understand what you are asking.

Developers make the game and hope people would buy them. More content = potentially more sales. That's good for business.

You don't like them because reasons? Don't buy the game. Don't support them. Go protest on the streets.

I always do vote with my wallet. My criticism boils down to embrace the weirdness, not the sexy. There's a lot of cut outfit concepts that are strange but really awesome.