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Anyone here a lawyer? (Reckless driving accusation)

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Seth C

Member
Here's the story...

Yesterday while driving to work I passed someone in a designated passing zone (dashed line). I was in a 55mph zone, and the car in front of me was going 40mph. I passed him without exceeding the speed limit. The oncoming traffic was far enough away that I was able to wait long enough to give the car I passed plenty of room before returning to my lane. Now, once I got back in my lane I was able to see that the first oncoming vehicle was a motorcycle, then a car, then a police cruiser. At that moment I checked my speed just to be sure, and was only going 55, so I thought nothing of it.

Now, several miles down the road a state trooper begins to come up behind me. He isn't running his lights or siren, but is riding my bumper so close that it was unsafe. Assuming he simply wanted by I put on my turn signal and pulled to the side of the road. To my surprise he pulled over with me. Even more to my surprise, instead of walking up to my window and asking for my license he stood behind my car and yelled "get out of your vehicle." I did, and slowly approached him (he was in street clothes), when he demanded my license. I gave it to him, and he ordered me to go get back in my car. I go back to my car to wait.

Some time later a second officer arrived, knocked on my window, and asked me to step out of my car. Again I get out and go to the rear of my car. He asks if I was in a hurry to get somewhere. I said I was headed to work, and was running a little late but should be able to get there in time. He asked where I work, then questioned me as to what kind of business it was. He begins to pressure me, telling me he "knows" I must have been going "real fast" because it took the other officer so long to catch up to me. I told him that wasn't possible, as I wasn't speeding. He insisted I must have been, and I again told him I wasn't, and asked if he had me on radar speeding? He said no and grew frustrated.

At this point the second officer asks, "Do you have anything in your car that you shouldn't have?" Of course I say no. Then he asks, "Do you mind if I have a look around your car?" I had nothing to worry about, so I tell him he can look. At this point he required that I turn my back to my car and look the other way while he searches my vehicle. This, to me, was more than a little suspicious, but I went along with it anyway. After a few minutes he gets out of my car and walks back to the car of officer #1. In the meantime a THIRD officer has arrived (all three in street clothes). He asks #2 if I "had anything" to which he replies "no." I remain standing at the rear of my car.

A few moments later the original officer approaches me, gets all the way in my face, and begins yelling at me. The rant went something like, "What the fuck do you think you're doing out there? You almost hit that car! You nearly killed someone's grandmother and grandfather! You're lucky I don't haul you in to jail right now! I saw the look on your face when you jerked your car back over! If I didn't have to be at training I'd be taking you to jail!" Throughout this I remained calm and respectful. I tried to apologize (for whatever he felt I did) to which he shouted, "Don't fucking tell me you're sorry! Tell the people whose grandparents you almost killed!" Then he hands me the citation and says "Now you're going to have to go to court and lose some points on your license." After this he goes back to his car and they leave.

This, word for word, is what he wrote on the ticket:

"1. Reckless Driving.

Vehicle passing vehicles in curve almost causing a major wreck. Subject almost lost control of his vehicle when trying to get back over in to his lane."

Now, forgive me but shouldn't something like this include some amount of fact? I almost lost control of my vehicle? How? Did I swerve? Did I go off the road? What are the facts that lead him to believe I "almost lost control of my vehicle. How does one ALMOST cause a MAJOR wreck? Sounds like hyperbole to me. There are several steps between not causing a wreck of any kind (what happened) and causing not only an accident, or a wreck, but a MAJOR wreck. Nevermind the fact that he states I as passing vehicles, plural, which is simply false. I passed one vehicle. Given his view (three cars back) he saw none of that, but just made an assumption and placed it on the citation. But let's not forget, he could see the "look on my face" from that distance. I won't even get in to whether or not he should be acting aggressive and violent when dealing with me.

So, what should I do here?
 
Absolutely get a lawyer. It was also good that you wrote this to keep it fresh in your memory. Take it from me, you DO NOT want a reckless driving charge on your driving record. Also check out www.motorists.org for info on fighting tickets.
 

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
I would contest it, but it seems like it's gonna be your word against his word. Sounds fucked up though :(
 

Seth C

Member
DJ Demon J said:
Absolutely get a lawyer. It was also good that you wrote this to keep it fresh in your memory. Take it from me, you DO NOT want a reckless driving charge on your driving record. Also check out www.motorists.org for info on fighting tickets.

I wrote even more down immediately after I got to work. Almost four pages. Didn't want to forget anything.
 
Seth C said:
I wrote even more down immediately after I got to work. Almost four pages. Didn't want to forget anything.

Good. You also played it smart by not losing your cool and answering the officers' questions and following instructions. All of this just adds to your defense and hurts his credibility. (If you can recall the other officers' names/badge numbers, write them down too).
 
That's fucked up. I would absolutely contest this. Money spent on an attorney will be MORE than made up in an insurance hike that you'll have to pay for the next 3-5 years.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Sounds whack to me. you are doing the right thing.

Contact a lawyer, save everything you can from the incident, and contest it.

Edit: Oh and never pull over for an officer unless you are instructed to do so or they have their sirens on. He might not have anything better to do.
 
scola said:
Edit: Oh and never pull over for an officer unless you are instructed to do so or they have their sirens on. He might not have anything better to do.

Why do you say this? Is there a law or something that you don't have to pull over unless they have their lights/sirens on? Just curious. Although I don't think I ever would pull over until they flipped them on...
 
Well consider your costs, short term or long term. Short-term: do you want to pay for a lawyer to get out of what might be a $200 ticket which could probably taken care of through driving school and not having the points show up on your record thereby keeping your insurance rates low, or Long-term: pay for a lawyer, risk the possibility of losing and still paying for the ticket, and having higher insurance rates?

It sucks what you've gone through, but unless they pulled a Rodney King on you then I wouldn't sweat it too much.
 

SKluck

Banned
I know when cops come to your house you can call the police station and ask about it to verify he is a real cop, but what do you do on the road? Anything can be forged. In plain clothes that should've been some kind of warning, should've at least asked for ID or a badge and written it down, that is key.

"In the meantime a THIRD officer has arrived (all three in street clothes). He asks #2 if I "had anything" to which he replies "no.""

That is EXTREMELY suspicious. They certainly seem legit after giving you a citation. But ALL 3 in plain clothes? They were marked police cars weren't they?

Not to mention him telling you to turn your back while searching your car, I know you don't want to fuck with cops because they can put bullshit on you and you are stuck fighting it in court losing money/time, but shit that is dangerous.

Didn't another guy post on here a while back he pulled over for a cop that didn't have his siren on and he gave him a ticket because he 'thought' he must have been doing something wrong because he felt guilty and pulled over or some shit?
 

Seth C

Member
Yes. All three vehicles were marked and had lights, they just didn't turn them on. Apparently all three were going to some training.

And I pulled over because he was right on my ass. I'm sorry, but it was to the point it had become dangerous, and he wasn't backing away. If I had slammed my brakes he couldn't have stopped in time to not hit me. Of course, I was the one driving recklessly. :/
 

Odoul

Member
I fucking detesty cops. And that search conversation sounds real suspect. You know you don't have to let them? Make a pig work (out in papers, get a warrant). That seriouly sounds like some Vic Mackey shit.
 

Seth C

Member
Odoul said:
I fucking detesty cops. And that search conversation sounds real suspect. You know you don't have to let them? Make a pig work (out in papers, get a warrant). That seriouly sounds like some Vic Mackey shit.

If I had said no I suspected he'd claim that was probable cause and try to search the damn thing anyway. At the very least I guarantee it would have resulted in me in the slammer.
 

Odoul

Member
Without a warrant it don't mean SHIT. Ironically I just had this conversation with my sister 3 days ago( her 3rd year of law school). If you refuse and they claim probable cause sure they'll force their way in. But if they do it without a warrat the entire case/complaint gets tossed right out on it's ass (even if you were carrying something illegal).
 

marsomega

Member
SETH MY FRIEND. Get a lawyer. Write everything down and get come up with every single thing you can against these cops.


The cops have no proof. Even with radar, there are lawyers that practically swallow these cases raw. Tell them you felt threaten, embarrassed, and harassed. Tell them how everything went and how there was no incident that they described. The cops had no witness. So the grandpa and grandma story and go up their ass for all anyone cares. You never broke the speed limit so regardless the speeding story is shit with evidence or not. Tell the lawyer everything about the other cops coming in later, cornering you up and don't forget the tail gating.

GOSH TELL THE LAYWER EVERYTHING. Let him decide whether you have a case or not. And don't forget to get a second opinion from another lawyer.

Have a good story with a similar issue. But I have to go walk my dog right now.
 

bionic77

Member
I am not a lawyer yet, just a law student. But, I have seen how effective a lawyer can be for traffic violations in the firms I have worked at last year and currently this year. And the cop can't get Probably Cause just because you don't consent to let him search. Anything he found in that search would be thrown out of court. That whole episode was pretty damn sketchy, which state was this in by the way?
 

Joe

Member
without a doubt get a lawyer. its gonna cost you some nice cash but its worth it. ive had two friends go through this, and without a lawyer they wouldnt be driving right now.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
heavy liquid said:
Why do you say this? Is there a law or something that you don't have to pull over unless they have their lights/sirens on? Just curious. Although I don't think I ever would pull over until they flipped them on...

No, there is no law, but like I said, they may have nothing better to do with their time. Pulling over before they indicate to do say could signal to them that you think you might have done something wrong.

[edit:: actually I am sure you are well within your rights not to pull over unless a)they tell you to over the horn b) do the siren c)do the lights d) point you over to the side of the road ]

One time I was out messing around with some friends and I screched the tire on the car (to freak my friends out) and around the corner comes a cop 2 seconds later. The cop didn't see it, it could have been somebody else around us. so he starts following us really close, I start to drive my friend hom never flinghing as the cop follows our every turn. Eventually the game bores him and he didn't see me do shit. He flashed his high beams at me once then turned a corner and left us like some bully faking a punch to see if I would flinch.
 

Socreges

Banned
In Greater Vancouver, where I live, if the cop doesn't show up to the hearing [a pre-scheduled date where you can dispute the ticket], you don't have to pay the fee. I've known of people who tried that when they were blatantly in the wrong and got off completely free.

So, if that's the case in Kentucky, it gives you even stronger initiative to take this up. Regardless, though, you've got so much going in your favour, I think it'll definitely be worth the cost of a lawyer. As well as saving some money, you'll get some experience with law and a whole lot of pride. I'm sure you'd love making them look like goofs.
 

bionic77

Member
Seth C said:
Also, I've never had a lawyer or needed a lawyer for anything. How much is one going to cost for this?

Impossible to say. Could be more then a thousand, could be like a 100 bucks. Depends on the lawyer, the firm, the area, etc.
 
scola said:
No, there is no law, but like I said, they may have nothing better to do with their time. Pulling over before they indicate to do say could signal to them that you think you might have done something wrong.

[edit:: actually I am sure you are well within your rights not to pull over unless a)they tell you to over the horn b) do the siren c)do the lights d) point you over to the side of the road ]

One time I was out messing around with some friends and I screched the tire on the car (to freak my friends out) and around the corner comes a cop 2 seconds later. The cop didn't see it, it could have been somebody else around us. so he starts following us really close, I start to drive my friend hom never flinghing as the cop follows our every turn. Eventually the game bores him and he didn't see me do shit. He flashed his high beams at me once then turned a corner and left us like some bully faking a punch to see if I would flinch.

That's funny. Reminds me of the time my friend's car died in Chicago, and we ended up having to push it in front of his house. Not that the cop tried to help us or anything. About halfway down his street, the cop car yelled over his loudspeakers *TRY GAS*... THANKS! SO HELPFULL!
 

Tortfeasor

Member
Seth - I am in my 2nd year of law school, so I may be able to add some insight. Disclaimer#1 - I am not offering you legal advice, as I am not qualified to do so. If seeking legal advice I would recommend seeking out a qualified lawyer in your area.

It is not really worth going to a lawyer because you have no case. In the end since the only witnesses are you and the cop, and with no additional evidence, the judge is going to have to make a judgement call if you plead not guilty. More than likely the judge will find you guilty owing to the built in credibility of the police officer.

You best bet is to show up to court and go right up to the prosecutor and offer to make a deal. I am not sure what the laws are in your state, but if you have something like "court supervision" the prosecutor will most likely waive the reckless driving charge and offer you supervision (no points removed) with a fine.

Going to a lawyer will get you the same result and cost way more in the long run.

BTW... I assume that the ticket is just for a misdemeanor. If it is for a felony then make sure to hire a lawyer. Now for disclaimer #2 :) I am not qualified to offer you legal advice being that I am just a law student and am totally unfamilar with the laws of your state, so the above is in no way legal advice. To find the specific laws of your state and to recieve legal advice, make sure to consult a qualified lawyer in your area. :)
 

explodet

Member
Seth C said:
Happened in Kentucky. All three were State Troopers.
Damn, every time I drive through Kentucky on a road trip, I notice the state troopers there are EVERYWHERE. I never got pulled over thankfully, but every time I drive through, I'm always very apprehensive.
 
fight it. These guys sound like jackasses, they probably won't even bother going to court and you will win by default (i think cops don't have to go if they say they are too busy or something). Fuck'em.
 

Phoenix

Member
You don't really have a choice - the charge is pretty severe as far as insurance goes. Get a lawyer, that person will be able to get it reduced (possibly) and you may need to come out of the pocket in some way, but it is VERY rare that the traffic courts go against officers in civil matters unless you have a lawyer or some pretty significant evidence (which you don't have).
 

Seth C

Member
explodet said:
Damn, every time I drive through Kentucky on a road trip, I notice the state troopers there are EVERYWHERE. I never got pulled over thankfully, but every time I drive through, I'm always very apprehensive.

You aren't kidding. On the way to work today I passed 5 State, 2 unmarked State, and 3 local cops.
 

Dilbert

Member
My girlfriend is a lawyer who used to be a defense attorney (not in Kentucky, though). I sent her your story, and here was her response:
I read this story with great interest. My response is two-fold, the legally correct analysis and the analysis that will not get you punched in the stomach and your car ransacked.

Legal Analysis:

1. A cop who is in street clothes can pull you over for probable cause (in this case he is claiming he witnessed an almost-accident)
2. He can direct you to get out of your car for a traffic violation.
3. You are obligated to comply.
4. You have a right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures absent a warrant or exigent circumstances. That right is waived when you consent (unless you prove duress) to a search. You do not have to consent.
5. You have no legal right to observe the search.
6. It is inappropriate for a police officer to use profanity. You can file a complaint with internal affairs.
7. Your ticket for Reckless Driving: The officers will probably not prevail. The officer will have a hard time proving that you almost caused a major wreck (how does he know?) without testimony from other drivers or witnesses. But, there will be no plea bargain or offer to dissmiss extended to you, and you will have to win after trial.

Avoiding Physical Injury:

1. Get out of the car. Comply with everything that the officer says. Take your hands out of your pockets and make no sudden movements. Do not antagonize the officer.
2. When asked if he can search your car, say yes. If you don't, he may arrest you and impound your car and search it in the impound lot.
3. When an officer yells and screams at you, do not answer back or try to defend yourself. Simply accept the ticket, get in your car, drive away cautiously and call your lawyer when you are safely in your office.
Although she didn't suggest a specific strategy for #7, it sounds like a competent lawyer might be able to come up with a defense if there are no witnesses. Given the significant costs of going to trial and potentially losing, however, you may want to investigate a plea bargain if offered.

Good luck...
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
I'm not a lawyer, so I wouldn't give you legal advice, but please get one. Torfeaser's simplifying it a bit much by saying the lawyer cannot do anything for you. He'll know exactly how to go about pleading your case to a judge he's likely familiar with and hopefully you'll get one that specializes in moving violations.

And Odoul's right about what rights you have... but that's very naive way to go about it... unless you're a drug dealer and want to avoid serious charges by hiding behind your rights.

If you're a law abiding citizen it's best to let them do whatever they want since they can and will. I've been pulled over 15 times and only two of them have been for legitamite reasons. My cars been searched almost everytime. I's a hassle for sure, but much less than fighting them on it, especially since it's their world to control when it's just you and a cop.
 
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