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[Shikamaru Ninja]

The Zelda series has two major things holding it back.

1. Production value. It took years of criticism and fan outcry to get an orchestrated soundtrack in the series. It really is concerning that you have such a lucrative and popular franchise struggling to get some industry standard things green lighed in the budget. But the series still feels years behind when it comes to production and presensation. The lack of any voice content, cheap sound effects, really deter from the epic potential of the series.

2. Hand holding. The 3D console games perform well outside of Japan, and poorly inside of Japan. The executives at Nintendo feel that they have to make the 3D Zeldas as accessible and unintimidating as possible. Unfortunately it has not worked. The 3D console Zelda series is still limited to a niche userbase in Japan, and the rest of world wide audience has often suffered for the decision.

The dungeon design and mechanics of the series are impeccable. Still brilliant and proof that the development team themselves is not the problem. The drawbacks of the series come from extrinsic factors outside the development team. Outside of the director. Outside of the producer.

Quite frankly, the names we should be concerned with are Shigeru Miyamoto and other executive branch personnel responsible for the decisions and limitations being place on the development. While many inaccurately cite Shigeru Miyamoto as an active developer, the man is the general manager and executive officer that approves or vetos all the requests proposed by the producers of his development teams.

Someone mentioned Masahiro Sakurai previously. Because Sakurai works for a development team outside of Shigeru Miyamoto's jurisdiction, he has all this creative freedom to do things like difficulty balance, online, voice acting. Another example is Yoshio Sakamoto who again can create a game without any limitations being placed on him by Shigeru Miyamoto.

The EAD branch currently has seven producers each corresponding to a development team. If you ask me, they are all being creatively stiffled. All their games have to adhere to Miyamoto's philosophy which I think hurts the progress of several franchises.

 

[Spieler Eins]

^But Miyamoto is the one who actually demanded to reduce all text in SS and forced Aonuma to organize an orchestrated soundtrack...

 

[Tookay]

Are we talking plot text or instructional text Spieler? Because Miyamoto does hate story bits.

EDIT: Also, I'm kinda interested where you got that from, never heard it before.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

^But Miyamoto is the one who actually demanded to reduce all text in SS and forced Aonuma to organize an orchestrated soundtrack...

If you read back interviews with Kondo (sound manager) and miyamoto (general manager) you can trace several dismissals of orchestrated soundtracks since Wind Waker. With Skyward Sword it seems that orchestral soundtrack was "approved" in mid-development and that's when Miyamoto approached Aonuma with the decision. If you ask me, I think the determining factor here was Mahito Yokota.

 

[volmer]

I thought the first few hours of Skyward Sword were a joy to play.

I am a bit puzzled how someone can look at the game and say "no innovation, need change", when the game actually features a whole bunch of incremental changes and twists to the classic 3D Zelda mechanics. Sure, the basics remain the same; Link is shown in 3rd person perspective and has a variety of items that he uses to solve puzzles, but that is also the premise of making a new entry in the series that isn't regarded as a spin-off.

 

[Anth0ny]

Not to justify Assassin's Creed/Call of Duty/etc. having annual releases, but there's a situation where you can forgive a new installment for only making marginal advancements over its predecessor.

Expectations aren't higher for Zelda because it's Zelda, but precisely because it's averaging a 3-4 year gap between releases. And in all honesty, the series has taken such baby steps forward in 13 years that it would actually be more forgivable if Zelda was an annual release as well. There should be higher expectations for a new Zelda game that comes out after a 5-year wait.

It's not a witch-hunt against Zelda because it's "Zelda", it's deserving criticism for a franchise that has fallen short of reasonable expectations for how a franchise should evolve over the course of 13 years. Whereas Mario and Metroid have re-invented themselves over the past decade with huge success despite remaining unmistakably Mario and Metroid games at heart, Zelda has continued to tread water. The series has taken one bold step forward in 2000, and since then, they've made it a conscientious objective to have nothing to do with that game because some people were disappointed that it was "too different from Ocarina of Time." By and large, the series has gone backwards from that game over the past 11 years, and summarily in 13 years has made very little advancement to the Ocarina framework that they are basing each game around. If that doesn't warrant criticism, I don't know what does.

I also disagree with your Resident Evil comparison, and actually, the response to RE5 draws strong parallels to Zelda. RE4 couldn't be any further from the classic games. The reason RE5 got flak was because, like Zelda, it failed to live up to expectations built-up over a 4-year wait. RE5 was a dumbed-down RE4. Was it worth waiting 4 years for a watered-down, creatively bankrupt version of the same game? No. Had RE5 come out a year or two after RE4 on the GameCube and PS2, those lack of advancements are a lot easier to stomach.

I like this post. I like it a lot.

 

[royalan]

Not to justify Assassin's Creed/Call of Duty/etc. having annual releases, but there's a situation where you can forgive a new installment for only making marginal advancements over its predecessor.

Expectations aren't higher for Zelda because it's Zelda, but precisely because it's averaging a 3-4 year gap between releases. And in all honesty, the series has taken such baby steps forward in 13 years that it would actually be more forgivable if Zelda was an annual release as well. There should be higher expectations for a new Zelda game that comes out after a 5-year wait.

It's not a witch-hunt against Zelda because it's "Zelda", it's deserving criticism for a franchise that has fallen short of reasonable expectations for how a franchise should evolve over the course of 13 years. Whereas Mario and Metroid have re-invented themselves over the past decade with huge success despite remaining unmistakably Mario and Metroid games at heart, Zelda has continued to tread water. The series has taken one bold step forward in 2000, and since then, they've made it a conscientious objective to have nothing to do with that game because some people were disappointed that it was "too different from Ocarina of Time." By and large, the series has gone backwards from that game over the past 11 years, and summarily in 13 years has made very little advancement to the Ocarina framework that they are basing each game around. If that doesn't warrant criticism, I don't know what does.

I also disagree with your Resident Evil comparison, and actually, the response to RE5 draws strong parallels to Zelda. RE4 couldn't be any further from the classic games. The reason RE5 got flak was because, like Zelda, it failed to live up to expectations built-up over a 4-year wait. RE5 was a dumbed-down RE4. Was it worth waiting 4 years for a watered-down, creatively bankrupt version of the same game? No. Had RE5 come out a year or two after RE4 on the GameCube and PS2, those lack of advancements are a lot easier to stomach.

I agree with every part of this.

It is because we only get Zelda games every 4-5 years that huge evolutionary advances are expected in the formula.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Can't wait for the "Skyward Sword appreciation thread" before the next 3D Zelda hits shelves.

 

[Magicpaint]

I agree with every part of this.

It is because we only get Zelda games every 4-5 years that huge evolutionary advances are expected in the formula.

While it is reasonable to expect evolutionary changes when you wait that long (and I will argue that they do happen), I feel like the more space between releases the fresher the experience is.

 

[Varna]

Yeah, because it's like that all the time... If you turned off the game because you had to read two dialogue boxes from your side kick, have you finished any of the 3D Zeldas? I was playing OOT 3D yesterday and every time I went into a new area Navi or that owl popped up to tell me what the area is about and what I need to do, this it not something new to the series.

It actually is. I made it to the fourth dungeon and it was the same thing every time. The game actually does a very good job of conveying the new area, new mechanics, etc without the need for a actual explanation... but despite that every time you encounter something new you still have to listen to Fi state the obvious in the most annoying way possible (very long-winded without the option to skip or even speed up the text). Not to mention all the random NPCs who would come out of nowhere to remind of your objective just in case you forgot after being told about it for 5 minutes straight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

Great video that pretty much sums up why Skyward Sword (and any game that's this insulting to the player) pretty much sucks.

As far as the intro goes, I don't know what a good balance is. They just seem like a waste of time and resources. They are basically designed for people who have never played a video game. Why can't the manual or something on the title screen do the same so the rest of us don't have to suffer through it? The intro in SS/TP might have actually been decent if there was some tension.

 

[Shion]

1. Production value. It took years of criticism and fan outcry to get an orchestrated soundtrack in the series. It really is concerning that you have such a lucrative and popular franchise struggling to get some industry standard things green lighed in the budget. But the series still feels years behind when it comes to production and presensation. The lack of any voice content, cheap sound effects, really deter from the epic potential of the series.

Yes.

Production values and presentation are two of the biggest holdbacks in modern Zelda. This is where the medium has made the biggest progress in the last decade and, sadly, Zelda seems to have stuck in the N64 era. This holds the series back, not gameplay wise, but as an experience.

 

[mikeysteena]

Iam just a junior on these boards but I want to add my two cents.

I think the problem with the series nowadays is the amount of time between each modern release.
It seems to me that the longer we have to wait, the more willing we are to pick the game to pieces when it's finally released.
Skyward Sword was great but I honestly feel that had it been released say two years after TP it would have been seen more as a natural progression of the series and the fans would have respected it as such.

 

[CorvoSol]

Now, I'm but a humble junior on the boards, but I can't help but wonder: why does everyone keep saying that all console Zeldas following Majora's Mask tried too hard to be Ocarina? I know, obviously, that they're skipping over FSA, since it was top-down 2D, but Wind Waker? I cannot honestly believe that Wind Waker was trying in any way to be like Ocarina. It used some of the things Ocarina did, sure, but not any more so than Majora's Mask. The game relied on Ocarina's story to make its punches more emotional, I suppose, but really, I just don't see how Wind Waker was trying to be Ocarina at all.

There are valid complaints to be made, certainly, such as the emptiness of the ocean (great for the story, wretched for the gameplay) or the lack of dungeons and the disappointing Triforce Quest, but really, Wind Waker is its own game, and it doesn't try to be Ocarina. Say what you will of Skyward Sword, I haven't played it yet, and Twilight Princess, which I love despite the flak, but WW OoT was not.

 

[IrishNinja]

like others, i agree with much of what kajima's saying. likewise though:

The games are still good. Skyward Sword is a good/very good game, that finds greatness through some truly outstanding moments, but also has a fair share of low points that comprise a significant portion of the game. I can play it and say its another good follow-up to Ocarina of Time, sink 90 hours into it and come away with an experience that was mostly positive and more than justified the $50 price tag. Same with Twilight Princess.

But the days where I come away from a new Zelda feeling like I played something special, or groundbreaking, or truly magical, something that puts it on another level from anything else I played in a given year, those days have come and gone. It's become "another good sequel", and I can accept that from an annual Assassin's Creed game, but I expect something more from Zelda, whether it comes out every 5 years or every 2 years.

borrowing from the earlier bits of your post: i felt certain moments were "magical", but the elements most cited here - hand-holding tutorial, dull sidekick, some stuff repeating etc - i can see how that deterred others from said experience. moreover, there were certain sections like collecting tears, swimming with motion controls etc that I endured, not enjoyed, which is always a shame.

If this can be "blamed" on the series having set a high standard and failing to live up to that, okay, that's fair. But I also don't think that's reason to just give it a free pass and say, "well, people are always going to complain no matter what." I really don't think that has to be the case.

But as long as the developer-mentality is that Ocarina of Time has to be the foundation for all 3D Zelda games going forward, this will always be a byproduct of that. Majora's Mask was the only follow-up that didn't set out to out-do Ocarina of Time, and it's why it's one of my favorite games of all time as well.

to the former: i can't really agree; as a huge nintendo mainstay, and something of the king of adventure gaming, i don't think it's fair to say the expectations are only based on release schedule - i.e., if Assassin's Creed 3 fell off for 3-4 years, no doubt expectations would be quite high, but i don't think they're akin to those of Zelda, personally. entire franchises have been built around it, and it resonates greatly after 25+ years.

to the latter: i can't fault any love for MM or link's awakening, but for me, i really love the quiet little in-between stories that aren't as bogged down by formulas and continuity, you know? i think that was the big strength of MGS3 as well.
id really like another like that, but the DS ones werent my cup of tea, and sadly, after SS's sales i cant see the first WU one not being something closer to the formula. id very much like to be wrong.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Gonna have to say that I hate reading long text from NPCs. Also, the cutscene story segments are a bore ad nauseum, too.

Personally, reduce cutscene text story by 90%, and have you explore the world that gives hints about the past, like in the Metroid Prime games.

 

[RagnarokX]

It actually is. I made it to the fourth dungeon and it was the same thing every time. The game actually does a very good job of conveying the new area, new mechanics, etc without the need for a actual explanation... but despite that every time you encounter something new you still have to listen to Fi state the obvious in the most annoying way possible (very long-winded without the option to skip or even speed up the text). Not to mention all the random NPCs who would come out of nowhere to remind of your objective just in case you forgot after being told about it for 5 minutes straight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

Great video that pretty much sums up why Skyward Sword (and any game that's this insulting to the player) pretty much sucks.

As far as the intro goes, I don't know what a good balance is. They just seem like a waste of time and resources. They are basically designed for people who have never played a video game. Why can't the manual or something on the title screen do the same so the rest of us don't have to suffer through it? The intro in SS/TP might have actually been decent if there was some tension.

But Skyward Sword DOES teach without telling you explicitly. The only thing Fi tells you is that the boss door might be a boss door. There was only 1 time in my playthrough where she sorta spoiled something and that was telling me

Spoiler

that the Lanayru map revealed hidden paths

. Skyward Sword had some great aha! moments, especially durring the final boss and realizing

Spoiler

that I could use my sword as a lightning rod.

The problem with Fi is that she is a boring character. Navi and Tatl were way more annoying.

 

[Anth0ny]

Can't wait for the "Skyward Sword appreciation thread" before the next 3D Zelda hits shelves.

Really? I haven't seen any for Twilight Princess.

I don't see TP or SS getting the appreciation threads Majora's Mask or Wind Waker get. People were disappointed with Majora's Mask initially because it was so radically different from OOT. As time went on, more and more people realized what a masterpiece it was, and that deviating from the established Zelda formula was not only a good thing, but a great thing.

Wind Waker, of course, got shit on because of the graphics. As more and more "realistic" looking games from the GC era aged like shit, Wind Waker aged like fine wine. With Dolphin, it's arguably the best looking game of all time. The charming character designs, music, writing, sense of scale... it's all there.

 

[Coolwhip]

Someone else than Aonuma should do Zelda. I lost interest in the console Zelda's after OoT :/

 

[CorvoSol]

Someone else than Aonuma should do Zelda. I lost interest in the console Zelda's after OoT :/

You've been missing out then. MM and WW are awesome.

 

[Anth0ny]

As far as the intro goes, I don't know what a good balance is. They just seem like a waste of time and resources. They are basically designed for people who have never played a video game. Why can't the manual or something on the title screen do the same so the rest of us don't have to suffer through it? The intro in SS/TP might have actually been decent if there was some tension.

Ocarina of Time. I can't see them throwing you into the action as fast as Majora's Mask or Link to the Past ever again. Ocarina's intro was perfect. First, we kick off the story and build tension with two simple cutscenes: Ganondorf haunts your dreams. The Deku Tree is in trouble.

Now, you're in control. If you're an experienced player, you can collect the 40 rupees and grab the sword and shield in less than 5 minutes. If you're new, you can speak to Saria, who runs up to your home as soon as you exit. Notice how this long dialogue isn't mandatory? The only mandatory dialogue is when entering the shop. It's one line about this little elements introduced to the world of video games called Z TARGETING. I think that warrants an unskippable dialogue, lol.

If you need additional help, you can continue to explore. You learn how to climb vines. You learn how to jump. You learn how to crawl into small spaces. You can read signs if you can't figure this out for yourself (which pretty much involves holding forward or pressing a button. Not rocket science).

I just think that game is paced fucking perfectly. Compare the first 30 minutes of OOT with TP. It's like night and day. How to do an intro sequence right, and how to do an intro sequence so, so wrong.

But Skyward Sword DOES teach without telling you explicitly. The only thing Fi tells you is that the boss door might be a boss door. There was only 1 time in my playthrough where she sorta spoiled something and that was telling me

Spoiler

that the Lanayru map revealed hidden paths

. Skyward Sword had some great aha! moments, especially durring the final boss and realizing

Spoiler

that I could use my sword as a lightning rod.

The problem with Fi is that she is a boring character. Navi and Tatl were way more annoying.

Not even fucking close. Fi makes Navi seem like a mute. Tatl is probably the least annoying sidekick in Zelda history, she barely talks.

 

[Eusis]

I was always somewhat baffled at being annoyed at Navi. Later I could understand, at least from an objective sense, but she rarely intrudes and the most annoying thing is how she almost immediately steals your first person perspective button at the start of a session to go HEY LISTEN. Fi however, THAT was immediately, blindingly obvious. Some personality or at least playing around with the percentages in a meaningful manner would've helped, but as is she was just too boring for how redundant she was and the quirk of listing percentages came off as completely asinine.

 

[RagnarokX]

Ocarina of Time. I can't see them throwing you into the action as fast as Majora's Mask or Link to the Past ever again. Ocarina's intro was perfect. First, we kick off the story and build tension with two simple cutscenes: Ganondorf haunts your dreams. The Deku Tree is in trouble.

Now, you're in control. If you're an experienced player, you can collect the 40 rupees and grab the sword and shield in less than 5 minutes. If you're new, you can speak to Saria, who runs up to your home as soon as you exit. Notice how this long dialogue isn't mandatory? The only mandatory dialogue is when entering the shop. It's one line about this little elements introduced to the world of video games called Z TARGETING. I think that warrants an unskippable dialogue, lol.

If you need additional help, you can continue to explore. You learn how to climb vines. You learn how to jump. You learn how to crawl into small spaces. You can read signs if you can't figure this out for yourself (which pretty much involves holding forward or pressing a button. Not rocket science).

I just think that game is paced fucking perfectly. Compare the first 30 minutes of OOT with TP. It's like night and day. How to do an intro sequence right, and how to do an intro sequence so, so wrong.



Not even fucking close. Fi makes Navi seem like a mute. Tatl is probably the least annoying sidekick in Zelda history, she barely talks.

Yeah, but they still interrupt you to tell you pointless things like "Maybe you should talk to Saria to find out about the next spiritual stone even though you are already in Zora's Domain!" The difference is that Navi and Tatl and Midna have better personalities. Yes, Fi is annoying, but the point is that she isn't making the puzzles easier or really even reiterating what you already know that much more than previous helpers (the boss door thing is pretty much the only thing). She's just boring. Midna was an awesome character and she would still do stuff like "Hey, did you hear what that NPC said? Maybe you should go to bold word."

 

[CorvoSol]

I was always somewhat baffled at being annoyed at Navi. Later I could understand, at least from an objective sense, but she rarely intrudes and the most annoying thing is how she almost immediately steals your first person perspective button at the start of a session to go HEY LISTEN. Fi however, THAT was immediately, blindingly obvious. Some personality or at least playing around with the percentages in a meaningful manner would've helped, but as is she was just too boring for how redundant she was and the quirk of listing percentages came off as completely asinine.

I want your version of Ocarina of Time. Because the Navi I've met is the one that sits there and blinks and says "HEY LISTEN" nonstop until you talk to her, only for her to tell you what you already know, and then do it again a minute later. And again. And again.

And I don't know where people get off saying Navi has a personality. Navi was just an annoying blob shouting at you incessantly. Tatl, sure, but Navi? Not even.

 

[IrishNinja]

Gonna have to say that I hate reading long text from NPCs. Also, the cutscene story segments are a bore ad nauseum, too.

Personally, reduce cutscene text story by 90%, and have you explore the world that gives hints about the past, like in the Metroid Prime games.

reading chozo lore is the exact same thing as cutscene exposition, though - as long as they're both skippable, i don't see much difference.

Really? I haven't seen any for Twilight Princess

i know the cycle's kindve a meme now but i did see it a bit here - some folks finally stopped bagging on TP a bit before SS, and some of skyward's backlash was on about how great things were in twilight - midna, some of the later dungeon complexity, etc.

 

[Redford]

Still reading through this thread, but I liked someone's idea about reserving the tutorial until the second or third failure. I see little kids playing games like Skyrim and CoD and the difficulty only seems to make them even more determined.

Unless we're talking about a truly juvenile audience, no one gives up after the first or second try. And if they do, well Nintendo's going to have to revaluate their priorities.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Really? I haven't seen any for Twilight Princess.

There were a few.

 

[Gleethor]

I want your version of Ocarina of Time. Because the Navi I've met is the one that sits there and blinks and says "HEY LISTEN" nonstop until you talk to her, only for her to tell you what you already know, and then do it again a minute later. And again. And again.

And I don't know where people get off saying Navi has a personality. Navi was just an annoying blob shouting at you incessantly. Tatl, sure, but Navi? Not even.

Her personality was invented by nostalgia.

 

[CorvoSol]

Her personality was invented by nostalgia.

See, I don't want to just say this, because people always say that's where Samus' personality came from (ignoring Fusion), but I dunno. Navi didn't HAVE a personality as I recall it. In fact, the only times I remember her participating in the story rather than being a shrill annoyance was when the Deku Tree forced her on you and when you fight Ganondorf.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

You might as well say the same about Miyamoto and 3d Zelda games.

Anyway, I think that's just a lie. I don't see how you could look at Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask (Aonuma was Game System Director), Wind Waker and Twilight Princess (Aonuma was the Director) and Skyward Sword (Aonuma was the Producer, like with the portable titles) and say that they all share the same flaws.

Oh, I am. As far as I'm concerned all the Zelda staffers are expendable when it comes to 3D gaming.

 

[Boney]

Her personality was invented by nostalgia.

Except that's total bullshit

 

[CorvoSol]

Except that's total bullshit

Is it? I mean, where does Navi's personality come into play? People always say she's this self-sacrificing if jealous character, but I played Ocarina not too long ago and I just don't see it. Navi in Ocarina of Time doesn't have a personality.

 

[The Xtortionist]

reading chozo lore is the exact same thing as cutscene exposition, though - as long as they're both skippable, i don't see much difference.

You have to actually find things to scan in Prime, instead of having them spoon-fed to you. Makes you feel almost like a detective.

 

[RagnarokX]

Is it? I mean, where does Navi's personality come into play? People always say she's this self-sacrificing if jealous character, but I played Ocarina not too long ago and I just don't see it. Navi in Ocarina of Time doesn't have a personality.

Well, she does have about the same amount of personality as Fi. They are both assigned to be your helper in similar ways, and both have

Spoiler

forced "sad" parts

towards the end. The most personality Navi shows is durring the final battle where Ganon knocks her away and you can't Z target and then she promises not to let that happen again. She's less robotic, though, so she has that going for her.

 

[Boney]

Is it? I mean, where does Navi's personality come into play? People always say she's this self-sacrificing if jealous character, but I played Ocarina not too long ago and I just don't see it. Navi in Ocarina of Time doesn't have a personality.

I don't wanna sound like a total dick, but after seeing fimbulvetr and the rest argue with you about Ramza and Marche, I'm just gonna say that dialogue and actions give character their, well, character. You should play it again.

reading chozo lore is the exact same thing as cutscene exposition, though - as long as they're both skippable, i don't see much difference.

uhhhh no they're not. Scanning for lore is definatey a viable alternative, personally I don't think it's a very good one, but they're not the same thing at all.

 

[Redford]

The series is worshipped to the point and/or perceived even by newer players as supposedly "godlike", that the public strangles each game to death before it even comes out.

If you took the Zelda name off Skyward Sword, I'm willing to bet it would be viewed as a massively refined and rich action adventure game. And that like Darksiders, it would be complimented by virtually everyone as being superb "Zeldalike" that learned all the right lessons from The Legend of Zelda. At most, the hand-holding would be criticized, as that's a universal issue, but past that, I can't help but feel it would be recognized as a AAA experience.

But, it's got Zelda on the cover... so the expectations of every game revolutionizing video games is there.

Sorry, I've just been considering this all since seeing the Zelda cycle break open again when Skyward Sword was released. Zelda is treated with different gloves than most other games and if one steps back a little, it seems not that rational.

Sorry, but when I look at 10/10 scores from the press and people throwing up a shitstorm about a 7.5 review, I just can't sympathize with people who say that Zelda is persecuted because of it's pedigree, when it does nothing but benefit from the nostalgia and hype.

If you took off the Zelda logo, SS would be critiqued on the same tier as a Sonic game. It's unremarkable. There is just too much competition pushing production value ahead out there for me to ever see SS as a AAA release.

Basically, your argument only applies to sites like this, where the discontent portion of the fanbase is fairly large. On say, IGN, its the complete opposite.

 

[CorvoSol]

I don't wanna sound like a total dick, but after seeing fimbulvetr and the rest argue with you about Ramza and Marche, I'm just gonna say that dialogue and actions give character their, well, character. You should play it again.

I fail to see how my saying that Ramza and Marche look alike somehow reflects on the topic at hand. Especially since I've made it clear I referred only to their appearance, and not to their being similar characters. I suppose you mean to imply that I don't know what makes a character a character, in the which case I assure you I do, and am somewhat annoyed by the suggestion I don't. If you're sure of your convictions, how about providing evidence aside from telling me to play the game again? You say actions and dialogue give Navi her character, so please, do cite some.

 

[Retro]

Awesomeness

Wading through the bile and ugliness of this thread was worth it just for this gem. You are to be congratulated for getting right to the guts of the problem while framing it all very nicely. Great post.

 

[abstract alien]

Can we at least agree that most of the dungeon work in SS was awesome? Whatever choices he made, I thought they were pretty damn great when it came to that department. The flow and pacing of them just felt really nice for me, as well as the scale.

 

[Boney]

I fail to see how my saying that Ramza and Marche look alike somehow reflects on the topic at hand. Especially since I've made it clear I referred only to their appearance, and not to their being similar characters. I suppose you mean to imply that I don't know what makes a character a character, in the which case I assure you I do, and am somewhat annoyed by the suggestion I don't. If you're sure of your convictions, how about providing evidence aside from telling me to play the game again? You say actions and dialogue give Navi her character, so please, do cite some.

Opening scene has Navi bumbling through the air trying desperately trying to find Link. Later gets annoyed because Link won't wake up and goes erratic trying to wake him up and makes a snarky comment of how he can be the future of Hyrule if all he does is sleep. Ventures forth with Link without hesitation inside the Deku Tree. As the Deku Tree withers and dies, it says goodbye to it and remains for a few seconds longer in silence after Link leaves.

That's all in the opening of the game and helps Navi establish herself as a character. If you say that's all nostalgia talking and Navi is a blank slate that's only there to say "Link, you should go to Death Mountain". Well, I don't know what to say to you.

 

[Anth0ny]

Can we at least agree that most of the dungeon work in SS was awesome? Whatever choices he made, I thought they were pretty damn great when it came to that department. The flow and pacing of them just felt really nice for me, as well as the scale.

Dungeons are pretty much the only element that has stayed consistently good/great in 3D Zeldas, excluding Wind Waker (interesting ideas, mediocre execution). Skyward Sword is no exception, the third, forth and fifth dungeons standing out as some of the best in the entire franchise.

 

[Davey Cakes]

The worst part of Skyward Sword was the handholding throughout the game. I was usually a step ahead of the game, but still had to suffer through Fi telling me what to do.

But otherwise, there's a lot of good to the game that should not just be brushed aside and forgotten. The combat was engaging due to the motion controls (with a definite learning curve, though). The dungeons are about as good as ever (though TP really set a high standard). And in general the mechanics are relatively complex and satisfying, with environmental obstacles being quite compelling to traverse. The Lanayru Region in particular was absolutely filled with utterly fantastic gameplay.

 

[loosus]

My biggest beef with modern Zelda is that they have tried to turn it in an RPG with a story. If I wanted that, there are numerous other games doing that and doing that better.

Simply, THERE IS TOO MUCH TEXT. There are too many cutscenes. It used to be that text and cutscenes in Zelda basically linked (in a very, very brief way) two parts of the game. Not anymore. Now, they try to tell you a backstory, they repeat things they really think you should know, you are told every time you pick up a rupee, etc.

I don't like how it shows you a mini-movie whenever you start a new game profile, either. Starting a new file in Zelda nowadays is fucking painful. If you manage to get through a modern Zelda game once, chances are that you will never do it again.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Simply, THERE IS TOO MUCH TEXT. There are too many cutscenes. It used to be that text and cutscenes in Zelda basically linked (in a very, very brief way) two parts of the game. Not anymore. Now, they try to tell you a backstory, they repeat things they really think you should know, you are told every time you pick up a rupee, etc.

I get tired of having to constantly talk to the overly bizarre, gormless, "hee-larious" characters (seriously, fuck that clown in SS) they always try to stuff into the modern games. I'm more about the exploration and combat and that gets a little more fenced in every game.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Talking to the NPCs is actually very pleasant, if you ask me. I think Nintendo does a great job incorporating them with their own little personality and nuances.


Then again, I also devoted a solid 6 months of my life to Animal Crossing so I guess I have a higher tolerance for things like that than others.

 

[BassForever]

I loved Skyward Sword and thought it was the best Zelda made, I don't think they will ever make a Zelda game against that is universally praised because everyone has a different opinion on what the best Zelda is or what the best direction for the series is. MM/WW/SS depending on who you ask is either the "most disappointing/worst Zelda ever" or "a masterpiece".

 

[loosus]

Yeah, I couldn't care less about "talking" to virtual people in a videogame. That shit should've stopped in the 1990s. There is NO PIECE OF DIALOGUE that an NPC could utter that would make their virtual conversation any more interesting.

I mean, imagine the original Zelda for NES. You go into a shop where the guy is selling a candle, dungeon key, and bait. Before you can buy anything, he says:

"Have you talked to the lady at the dead-end near the tree? I hear she has a gambling game that you can play to make rupees. You should talk to her sometime. I did once, but I regret it. I lost my entire month's wage! My wife...oh...

Okay, buy something, will ya!"

Or, you go to the old man who gives you the first sword:

"Link, welcome to Hyrule, the place where you grew up. This land is filled with monsters that will take your rupees. However, you can destroy the monsters, and they will return rupees to you. Slash your sword by pressing the A Button. If your Heart Meter is full, you will have a special sword power that lets you destroy enemies from far away!

However, it is dangerous to go alone. Take this!

Now, let's practice using the sword before entering real battle. Fight me!"

Talking to the NPCs is actually very pleasant, if you ask me. I think Nintendo does a great job incorporating them with their own little personality and nuances

I give not one shit about the "personality and nuances" of Zelda's NPC characters.

 

[CorvoSol]

Opening scene has Navi bumbling through the air trying desperately trying to find Link. Later gets annoyed because Link won't wake up and goes erratic trying to wake him up and makes a snarky comment of how he can be the future of Hyrule if all he does is sleep. Ventures forth with Link without hesitation inside the Deku Tree. As the Deku Tree withers and dies, it says goodbye to it and remains for a few seconds longer in silence after Link leaves.

That's all in the opening of the game and helps Navi establish herself as a character. If you say that's all nostalgia talking and Navi is a blank slate that's only there to say "Link, you should go to Death Mountain". Well, I don't know what to say to you.

No, see, I actually did reject the notion that Navi's character is solely derived from nostalgia. I just don't think Navi has much of a character, that's what I'm saying. Because, after the opening, we don't really get any character out of Navi again until the fight with Ganon. Compare that to Tatl, KoRL, Midna, Ezlo, and ST Zelda, and well, Navi is very flat.

Which is, in fact, where my initial line of argument began. Someone grouped Navi in with the aforementioned as an exposition fairy of personality. I have a hard time believing that. I'd be hesitant in saying that Navi has as much personality as Ciela, even.

 

[Ultimadrago]

First Zelda where I was dragging my feet to finish. Skyward Sword is one of my least favorite (3D) Zeldas. I don't see why some take it so hard that a number of people genuinely disliked or hated the title.

"I'm not really opposed to adding more complexity to Zelda," Aonuma told us. "However, I don't think Zelda needs complicated elements that have to be mastered before a player can enjoy the core of the game's appeal. I think Zelda should be a game that is simple but that also has enough depth and variety to enable players to continue to make new discoveries."

And I would agree.

 

[Redford]

Yeah, I couldn't care less about "talking" to virtual people in a videogame. That shit should've stopped in the 1990s. There is NO PIECE OF DIALOGUE that an NPC could utter that would make their virtual conversation any more interesting.

I mean, imagine the original Zelda for NES. You go into a shop where the guy is selling a candle, dungeon key, and bait. Before you can buy anything, he says:

"Have you talked to the lady at the dead-end near the tree? I hear she has a gambling game that you can play to make rupees. You should talk to her sometime. I did once, but I regret it. I lost my entire month's wage! My wife...oh...

Okay, buy something, will ya!"

Or, you go to the old man who gives you the first sword:

"Link, welcome to Hyrule, the place where you grew up. This land is filled with monsters that will take your rupees. However, you can destroy the monsters, and they will return rupees to you. Slash your sword by pressing the A Button. If your Heart Meter is full, you will have a special sword power that lets you destroy enemies from far away!

However, it is dangerous to go alone. Take this!

Now, let's practice using the sword before entering real battle. Fight me!"


I give not one shit about the "personality and nuances" of Zelda's NPC characters.

Sarcasm in the first part?

 

[RagnarokX]

Sarcasm in the first part?

No, it's loosus. I'm pretty sure he still thinks there isn't a timeline.