DICKS AHOY
Banned
At the time I assumed chunks of the cancelled GCN Kirby game were used for SSE, though given HAL's minimal involvement with Brawl and that game eventually becoming Return to Dreamland I'm not so sure now.
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Apparently, SSBB had no other developers who worked on previous SSB titles
- Thread starter Oblivion
- Start date
Definitely not
I played Melee just recently and it's every bit as fun as the first day I played it when I got my Gamecube.
And Brawl is a better package if you like quantity over quality, which is pretty much the definition of Brawl.
I can guarantee you all those Kirby trophies were reused form the cancelled GCN game.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
We've known about this since it was announced they hired a bunch of Game Arts staff for the game. That said, much of Brawl's weaknesses are fundamental design choices by Sakurai and not just because of the code monkeys involved.
Quality vs quantity is a real hard argument to make when nothing in melee besides the multilayer and some of the event matches hold quality in them.
I can name a bunch of stuff I found interesting in brawl and wanted to do. Melee was a mess.
Oh yes, your argument is so compelling considering that MULTIPLAYER IS 90% OF EITHER GAME.
SMH
You are contradicting yourself.
Do you play only time battle, 3 minutes, without ever turning any items off? No? Then congratulations, by your logic, you're playing a game that doesn't exist.
PezDispenser
Banned
So, the question of which game has the better combat mechanics is entirely subjective, but when it comes to the "total package," that's an inarguably objective matter? Haha, this guy has to be trolling right?
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
But it does exist. It's called Super Smash Bros. Melee. Every tournament restriction made is directly enabled by the game. Why are you so angry that people enjoy OPTIONS? Why should people play on shit stages with items "just because"? I hope you've never used a FAQ or cheats in a game to "preserve the developer's vision".
There's a reason why poker games aren't just one hand or best out of three hands. There's a reason why cards that search for other cards are always powerful and valuable in TCGs. It's to lower the impact of luck. Funny you should mention poker though. The most common form of tournament poker is community card (such as Texas Hold 'Em). Should they all be playing poker as the original creator intended instead?
Edit: I love how Villager expects formal arguments in favor of Melee, but does nothing on his side but say he can "name a bunch of stuff he found interesting". Hope that list isn't a subjective one.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Plus apparently a ton of kirby enemies were cut from SSE using those trophy models, if Unseen64's anything to go off.
Was the net code a fundamental design choice? One person doesn't make the game alone, though Sakurai is still to blame for most of Brawl's missteps.
Professor Beef
Banned
I see that people are just now getting introduced to NeoGAF Member Village and his posts.
The online could be blamed on everyone involved. Nintendo at the time was anti online and still pushing local as the only real way to play. Smash's online was at best a test for MK Wii and at worst a check mark on the back of the box.
From what I've heard Namco is really damn good at netcode so I'm not going to worry too much about it anymore.
But if I swear to god if it does have bad netcode...........
I'm still so confused on what Namco is doing with this/how much of it they're handling.
Brawl has more arguably good shit and fleshed out shit in it.
A game with more arguably good things is better than a game with little to no arguably good things in it. Especially when the latter had little to nothing in it at all.
No not really.
This statement I have made before and I will make again. ^
If its arguable then you cant make that assertion. Its your opinion and thus highly subjective. Also poorly reasoned if your "arguments" so far are to be taken seriously.
Bill Rizer
Member
So HAL isn't involved at all in Smash 4?
You seems pretty delusional with these '''Melee doesn't exist'' stuff.
See, Smash is all about options, so even if Melee was made with hardcore players in mind, casuals could have tons of fun too.
Would you agree that local multiplayer is an essential part of Smash? Why is there then an option to play against the CPU? Don't you think knocking people out of the stage is essential to Smash? Why does then stamina mode exist? Time and Stock mode are completely opposite in how they play, so why do we have both? Why on Earth did Sakurai give us all these options to play non-existing games?
Randomness does remove emphasis on skill and puts it on luck, that's simply not up for debate. It's like saying that someone who won the lottery is as skilled as a hard working businessman. Like I said, start your own tournament with your own rules and have fun instead criticizing how other people chose to enjoy the game.
PezDispenser
Banned
Hey wait guys I just thought of something. If Melee doesn't exist... and I've been playing it all this time... then that must mean.... I don't exist?
OH MY GOD! My hands are starting to fade like in Back to the Future! It's only a matter of time now. Village, what should I do?!
OH MY GOD! My hands are starting to fade like in Back to the Future! It's only a matter of time now. Village, what should I do?!
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Obviously you were just playing DreamMix TV World Fighters the past decade and somehow the fever-dream state that game will always leave you in made your hazy memories of it remember it as this strange 'Melee' game full of whimsy and magic and final destinations you keep speaking of.
NeonZ
Member
They're the main development team, just like GameArts was for Brawl. Sakurai is the director, but programmers and other designers are mostly from Namco itself. Well, besides any possible outsourcing (like how Brawl also had Monolith and some others handling elements of the game). Although Namco Bandai should be big enough to avoid something like that, I think.
I'll take a look at the credits again later, I had looked at those credits last year, but I remember noticing how the names listed in the sections for SSE weren't from GameArts.
Brawl's single player is not better than Melee's. Okay, I'll give it Subspace Emissary over Adventure (though even that's debatable - Adventure is more replayable and has arguably better fanservice). But while Brawl has more content, almost every mode that's in both games is better in Melee. And why are people acting like Melee was bare-bones on content? On its release it was praised for the plethora of different modes and things to do. Yes, it's multiplayer first, but there's more single player than most fighting games.
In Melee, the character lineups for Classic and All-star were random. You would fight characters in a different order every time, which gave it replay value. You have a mostly-fixed character/stage order for Classic - you'll fight a Zelda character for the first match every single time, while in Melee you might not fight one at all. The type of battle (team, giant, single, etc.) is randomized in Brawl, but it's still not as good as a different order of characters every time. It makes it less fun to replay. Reverting back to a fixed character order like Smash 64 (which Melee was praised for fixing) was a bad idea.
All-star's order is even more rigid, and the difficulty progression from Melee (from solo to doubles to triple opponents) is gutted. Both classic and all-star also lack the scoring system - earning little achievement-type bonuses was fun and a feature of Smash since 64.
Break the Targets is completely ruined with five bland stages instead of one tailored for each character. Home-run contest fares somewhat better, but the addition of the shield around the platform takes away from its uniqueness and challenge.
Multi-man Melee - Okay, this is pretty much the same in both games.
Trophies - Brawl has more. But Melee has a better selection. Brawl's are heavily weighted toward recent games and have way too many bland Subspace villains that are tedious to get. And Melee's are more fun to earn, really one of the best "achievement" systems ever. I enjoyed getting them in Melee, while in Brawl I got bored long before. Beating Adventure with every character could get old in Melee, but Brawl has a lot of tedious trophies that are worse than that, especially since a lot of the single player modes are worse than Melee. I would prefer them not to do trophies in Smash 4 unless they can think of a way to make them really fresh and different.
Brawl does have boss rush, but it's not really that great. The game's mechanics aren't designed for these types of bosses. Master Hand was fun, but fighting a bunch of Master-Hand type enemies in a row gets old.
Events are better in Melee. Admittedly, I didn't play the co-op ones in Brawl. But Melee's are more creative and change up the rules more often.
In Melee, the character lineups for Classic and All-star were random. You would fight characters in a different order every time, which gave it replay value. You have a mostly-fixed character/stage order for Classic - you'll fight a Zelda character for the first match every single time, while in Melee you might not fight one at all. The type of battle (team, giant, single, etc.) is randomized in Brawl, but it's still not as good as a different order of characters every time. It makes it less fun to replay. Reverting back to a fixed character order like Smash 64 (which Melee was praised for fixing) was a bad idea.
All-star's order is even more rigid, and the difficulty progression from Melee (from solo to doubles to triple opponents) is gutted. Both classic and all-star also lack the scoring system - earning little achievement-type bonuses was fun and a feature of Smash since 64.
Break the Targets is completely ruined with five bland stages instead of one tailored for each character. Home-run contest fares somewhat better, but the addition of the shield around the platform takes away from its uniqueness and challenge.
Multi-man Melee - Okay, this is pretty much the same in both games.
Trophies - Brawl has more. But Melee has a better selection. Brawl's are heavily weighted toward recent games and have way too many bland Subspace villains that are tedious to get. And Melee's are more fun to earn, really one of the best "achievement" systems ever. I enjoyed getting them in Melee, while in Brawl I got bored long before. Beating Adventure with every character could get old in Melee, but Brawl has a lot of tedious trophies that are worse than that, especially since a lot of the single player modes are worse than Melee. I would prefer them not to do trophies in Smash 4 unless they can think of a way to make them really fresh and different.
Brawl does have boss rush, but it's not really that great. The game's mechanics aren't designed for these types of bosses. Master Hand was fun, but fighting a bunch of Master-Hand type enemies in a row gets old.
Events are better in Melee. Admittedly, I didn't play the co-op ones in Brawl. But Melee's are more creative and change up the rules more often.
Good post. Totally agree on everything.
Your post also reminded me how long it's been since me and my friends played All Star mode. We used to play it all the time when Melee first came out, but we then stopped for a long time, probably cause we could never beat it on Very Hard. But yeah, AS mode was pretty fun, and everything was random, which, depending on who you fight and how your health is, could be either good or bad.
Regarding Adventure mode in Melee, it might have not been nearly as fleshed out as it was in Brawl, but I felt it did a better job with sticking to the actual Nintendo universe. It was so awesome playing the Mushroom Kingdom level for the first time. It was almost what I wanted in a 2D Mario. Brawl focused way too much on brand new, generic, random characters and levels. Mind you, I'm not exactly opposed to the idea of making SSB-centric beings and such, but the execution kinda blew.
While SSE could have been a lot better, I enjoyed it for one run-through. Adventure is quite short, but that does give it more replay value (also because it has the points system and extra fights like Giga Bowser and Giant Kirby). So I'd say it's open to debate whether SSE or Adventure is superior.