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[kurisu_1974]

To be honest, even my earliest gaming (on MSX in the 80s) was with an RGB monitor and a SCART cable so I've always had the pixels and somewhat less of the CRT effect, and today it does not bother me at all to play my retro games on a modern screen.

Only issue sometimes is flickering when scrolingl, like in early Dragon Quest when you walk around the overworld.

 

[lukilladog]

There's literally tons of information out there. Later sd CRTs have all sorts of problems. 100/120hz, treating 240p as 480i, converting the analog to digital adding multiple frames of lag, etc.

Oh I see, you are talking about Europe, in America standard definition of TV´s is 480i and they all handle 240p fine.

 

[93xfan]

How would everyone rate plasma for older games? It seems to look pretty decent for classic games imo, though certainly not quite as good.

 

[baphomet]

Oh I see, you are talking about Europe, in America standard definition of TV´s is 480i and they all handle 240p fine.

No, I'm definitely taking about American TV's.

 

[lukilladog]

No, I'm definitely taking about American TV's.

They are rare compared to 480i tv´s, anyway, it´s easy to tell them apart, if you don´t know ask at crt reddit or the crt collective in facebook.

 

[01011001]

no input lag and near instant response time... yeah...

the input lag is getting there with modern TVs, and Black Frame Insertion, if done well, also gives near perfect pixel response time, so we are almost at a point where we can emulate CRTs perfectly as CRT filter also get better.

so yes, they still are better, but soon won't be anymore.

 

[dispensergoinup]

I've been looking for a sony pvm for a while now. Once I saw Chrono Trigger on it, I knew I had to have one.

 

[01011001]

Motion clarity is still better.

if you have a good PC monitor that can do BFI at 120hz then not really anymore no.

120hz BFI if implemented correctly (my Dell monitor has a really good BFI implementation) actually can look cleaner in motion than a CRT, which still exhibits a bit of afterglow at fast motion

edit: here a BFI motion test image from a modern PC monitor

as you can see, basically zero blur. the blur that is there would not really be noticeable to the human eye

 

[lukilladog]

if you have a good PC monitor that can do BFI at 120hz then not really anymore no.

120hz BFI if implemented correctly (my Dell monitor has a really good BFI implementation) actually can look cleaner in motion than a CRT, which still exhibits a bit of afterglow at fast motion

That cuts your brightness in half?... and that flicker must kill my eyes, I always had severe comfort problems with pwm led and fluorescent lamp lcd. On the other hand CRT TV's are perfectly comfortable for me (the phosphor persistence should be providing the sweet spot for my vision and the afterglow looks pretty cool in arcades).

 

[01011001]

That cuts your brightness in half?... and that flicker must kill my eyes, I always had severe comfort problems with pwm led and fluorescent lamp lcd. On the other hand CRT TV's are perfectly comfortable for me (the phosphor persistence should be providing the sweet spot for my vision and the afterglow looks pretty cool in arcades).

my Samsung TV has a huge brightness penalty for using BFI and noticeable flicker. but you get used to that after a few minutes. I would only recommend that for retro games

my Dell PC monitor on the other hand has no noticeable flicker and a tiny drop brightness. that is easily usable for modern games as well

at high refreshes BFI flicker and brightness loss is not an issue. also as TVs get beighter and brighter we also get to a point where even with BFI on, your TV will most likely be brighter than any CRT out there.
CRT screens aren't even remotely as bright as any modern TV, I think a lot of people forgot that. we are at a point where consumer TVs can reach about 10x the Nits than any CRT... if you cut that in half you still have a way brighter image than a CRT, and usually also still a higher contrast ratio as well

 

[Panajev2001a]

You don't even need a CRT to attain that look, a good scanline filter will do it.

But what you get with CRTs that you don't get with most HD sets is accurate colours, better contrast, and peak input response because the image updates instantaneously.

Yeah, if you want to play a lot of SD games and have the means to obtain a CRT then it's well worth it.

Most game provided CRT filters suck though :/.

 

[StateofMajora]

A good amount of flat screen sd tvs don't display 240p correctly.

Such as?

There's literally tons of information out there. Later sd CRTs have all sorts of problems. 100/120hz, treating 240p as 480i, converting the analog to digital adding multiple frames of lag, etc.

I think you are talking about hd crts like the 4:3 models out there and also the xbr widescreen models.

My flat Trinitrons such as fs200, fs100 and fv300 don't have any problems with 240p mate.

 

[DragoonWalker]

Straight facts.
And this also applies to optical special effects in movies. People were not retarded back then, those effects actually looked good on 35mm, the final battle in Return of the Jedi on film is even impressive to this day for example.. they only became laughable during the DVD era thanks to awful, altered in white balance, contrast and gamma, de-grained masters.




Even early CGI for that matter, a million times better than the altered versions on home video formats.

Can confirm. I have a blu ray copy of the unaltered star wars trilogy from a 35mm scan and indeed it looks fantastic.

Holy shit at that Jurassic Park presentation. That's way better than it looks on my vanilla ass blu ray. The grimier tone, subdued colors, more shadowy contrast makes the dinosaurs look so much more real. I wish there was a way to get a hold of that version.

 

[cireza]

I'm surprised they still haven't found a way to faithfully reproduce the look of crt on modern tvs.

That's because you can't. It is a technological issue. The way the picture is produced is entirely different so there are things that you cannot achieve on modern TVs.

For anything 240p, that will take advantage of the natural scanlines, CRT is a million times better. For 480i you will still get all the other advantages, the main one being the outstanding motion clarity. CRT also have fantastic brightness without causing as much eyestrain.

They also have their issues, of course. But overall, for 240p content, I will pick CRT any day.

 

[Vick]

Can confirm. I have a blu ray copy of the unaltered star wars trilogy from a 35mm scan and indeed it looks fantastic.

Holy shit at that Jurassic Park presentation. That's way better than it looks on my vanilla ass blu ray. The grimier tone, subdued colors, more shadowy contrast makes the dinosaurs look so much more real. I wish there was a way to get a hold of that version.

At least the original SW trilogy has been released with proper colors and gamma on both BD and UHD-BD not long ago. Still not the original versions, but a huge jump compared to previous releases.

Jurassic Park on the other hand will always be stuck on that awful super colorful, magenta dominant, bright/absent shadows fake-ass cheap TV movie presentation.
Spielberg himself made a new grading for the 3D release, with amazing colors but too much degrain due to the conversion process and also a bit too warm, but that version is stuck on 3D BD and braindead fans hated its look anyway because it wasn't like the "original" (meaning that awful piece of shit of a master that looks nothing like the original made for the LaserDisc and refurbished for the DVD and BD).
They hated it so much Universal felt the need to please these idiots and made the new 4K version basically identical to the previous, completely inaccurate pink versions.
Such a classy, serious and scary looking movie, photographed by a horror DoP, became that kids colorful and happy shitfest. Depressing stuff.

 

[Dr.D00p]

I have to disagree, scanlines filters make images too dark as the black lines every other line lower your image brightness.

Even boosting your gamma or brightness/contrast will just wash out your image if you try to make it not look too dark.

On a CRT TV you get a bright image with scanlines without washing out the picture or making it too dark.

Most game provided CRT filters suck though :/.

Most people judge scanline filters on their PC monitors, where brightness levels are far lower than a good, large screen TV which have far superior lighting & contrast levels.

Using windows HDR mode on a PC monitor can remedy this to a certain extent, if properly calibrated.

Also when using filters on a PC monitor, people tend to sit much closer to the screen, which makes scanlines somewhat over bearing, compared to the much more subtle look from the usual TV viewing distances.

 

[lukilladog]

my Samsung TV has a huge brightness penalty for using BFI and noticeable flicker. but you get used to that after a few minutes. I would only recommend that for retro games

my Dell PC monitor on the other hand has no noticeable flicker and a tiny drop brightness. that is easily usable for modern games as well

at high refreshes BFI flicker and brightness loss is not an issue. also as TVs get beighter and brighter we also get to a point where even with BFI on, your TV will most likely be brighter than any CRT out there.
CRT screens aren't even remotely as bright as any modern TV, I think a lot of people forgot that. we are at a point where consumer TVs can reach about 10x the Nits than any CRT... if you cut that in half you still have a way brighter image than a CRT, and usually also still a higher contrast ratio as well

Pwm led monitors and lamp lcd didn´t have noticeable flicker either, and their switching was way faster than BFI, so I don´t think this tech is for sensible eyes. I have not used bfi, but I often see people complain about the loss of brightness, so it seems there is no standard there. I don´t think high refresh BFI will help 60hz old games.

 

[01011001]

Pwm led monitors and lamp lcd didn´t have noticeable flicker either, and their switching was way faster than BFI, so I don´t think this tech is for sensible eyes. I have not used bfi, but I often see people complain about the loss of brightness, so it seems there is no standard there. I don´t think high refresh BFI will help 60hz old games.

playing games over retroarch or other emulators on PC, with your output set to 120hz and BFI turned on, it definitely helps. you have perfect motion basically and the high refresh hides flicker pretty well

 

[Alexios]

CRT shaders are good enough, sure not every CRT will be 1:1 replicated but it makes the pixel art look nice instead of garish like it is raw so it's all good. Sonic's waterfalls, shading, etc. Of course folks playing on a PC should probably also just at least roll their chair back a little like on a TV.

Color accuracy isn't a thing, every CRT TV will show things differently, not to mention all of them have ruined contrast and brightness by now so will need repairs for sure.

 

[Melon Husk]

If you had a flat screen monitor with a 240Hz refresh rate capable of backlight flicker at a resolution of 2160p, you could emulate (with considerable processing power) cathode ray tubes' motion resolution and sub-"pixel" structure quite well!

 

[MadchesterManc]

The RF filter in the Mega Drive emulator I use does a good enough job of replicating the poor IQ one would get after a tuning into channel 6 back in the day, coupled with a Play SEGA controller it taps into that nostalgia enough. I do still have a Mega Drive fully boxed but don't use it much as it's PAL, which means 50Hz and noticeably slower games compared to emulated or via various collections played on other consoles over the years. That's a bigger gripe for me, CRT or not.

 

[Mattyp]

True, CRT TV's are still very easy to obtain. The biggest challenge is finding the space for it, since you'll most likely only use it for retro gaming.

This all depends on the country you're in, in Australia where the entire population scrapped them over a decade ago now they have become rare and quite expensive when you couldn't give them away 10 years ago.

If you live in the US it seems to be a country where they are plentiful and people never got rid of them or kept them around their house for some reason instead of recycling them.

I managed to track down a perfect Sony 68cm some time ago, same thing with a flatscreen CRT monitor 19" but that cost me ($300)

Anyone, anyone who actually plays retro games has to on a CRT. Don't waste your time on anything else.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Just finished Kuon on a modern LG led tv. It looked actually quite gorgeous upscaled to a 2k resolution with wide-screen patch applied.


But if for some godforsaken reason you actually want old games to look like they did 20 years ago by all means buy a CRT.

Or a time machine.

 

[GloveSlap]

My first hdtv was a 30 inch widescreen crt. I would play Halo 3 all of the time and then get confused when people online would say how pixelated and jagged it looked. Then later on i hooked it to a lcd and it all made sense.

 

[Calling 911 Melts Beams]

whichever type of display you prefer is wrong and i hope you get mad about it

 

[Rayderism]

For pixel art games, yes. And it really annoys me when indie devs make pixel art games without a CRT filter. Those scanlines give pixel art the illusion of higher detail. The OP shows exactly what I mean with his pic comparisons.

 

[xpresstuning]

They were designed for CRT TVs, yes. But buying an old tube TV isn't a do or die situation, although it's not as accurate, playing them on emulators through a good filter is not only more convenient and accessible, but it's also a method that allows you to choose your preferred output style.

I've been tinkering with SSF (Saturn emulator) with a CRT shader through Reshade, and it's pretty nice.

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

has anyone experience in playing retro games on this?

its a Sony Wega KLV-L23M1

 

[lukilladog]

playing games over retroarch or other emulators on PC, with your output set to 120hz and BFI turned on, it definitely helps. you have perfect motion basically and the high refresh hides flicker pretty well

The flicker that tends to hurt the eyes of sensible people and induce headaches (< 3000hz) is not noticeable to the brain, but from what I am reading those are not all the problems, it appears it also introduces input lag. I think we are still not in a point where its a solved problem for flat screens in the market. (it might be for the few not very sensible to flicker and input lag).

 

[rofif]

But crt monitors don't do that ?
CRT pc monitors show pixels precisely... right?! just round.
I have a crt in the basement. I had it connected maybe 2 years ago... and it looked normal.
I do remember resident evil 2 looking way better as a child... but who know now. I could start it up on that crt.

Here are some images last time I had it plugged in. I mainly wanted black levels out of it. But now that I am using lg oled, I don't feel the need to get back to it.... and the black levels were a bit disappointing honestly. The screen is a bit grey.
The motion is good though. RTCW and Max Payne rock on a crt
I also have older 15" hyundai crt (first pic) which is not flatscreen but it is so dim I have no idea how to fix it

Spoiler: old monitors

 

[DeepEnigma]

Yes.

 

[Sgt.Asher]

Yes, without a doubt.
Years ago i got a giant sony trinitron from my moving job, classic games looked fantastic. Had to get rid of it cause the thing weighed upwards of 200 lbs and took up way to much space.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Yep, and for certain systems it really elevates parts of the image. Sega Saturn games use natural blurring of CRTs to fake dithered shadows into transparent shadows. Tho as @Neff said, you don't need a clunky-ass CRT for that per-se, just a good scanline setting if you're using an emulator. If you're on original hardware or hardware emulators like Analog and MiSTER, you'd need to do something else, but the options are there.

If you're using something like an original Dreamcast and don't want the fuss of a clunky CRT, you're probably better off with something like those older VGA Dell monitors. They don't cost that much and have pretty good color saturation, and Dreamcast is one of the only older systems with built-in VGA output support. Was really ahead of its time in that respect when you compare the video output options for some of the consoles that came after it (or immediately after it, like the PS2).

Only with regards to what was released and supported by games to general gamers. The PS2 linux kit is supplied with a Dsub25 VGA output and I've personally output 1080p from it (it was to my KDL-46X3000 using the component cable with Xwindows manager I tested with).

One of Sony's failed first party titles I forgot (a gargoyle type game iirc) even unofficially worked with the VGA adapter, and I think Socom 2 did too.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Yes. Anything PS2 or older is best on crt.

GameCube, Wii and Xbox it depends on whether you want the more stable progressive scan image on a modern TV or the better clarity of a crt.

Not Gamecube, but that's maybe because few people have access to the digital out cables (I've got a boxed component one I keep forgetting to ebay).

My cube is modded twice, once for the laser mod for running the special loader facility region free, and I also got my Dad to mod in one of the digital to hdmi boards with control pad menu mod too, so the scan filters menu can be accessed via a key combo. I remember how good games looked via s-video & RGB scart from the cube on my top of the line Sony KD-32X200 CRT, and how it looked on component on my Panasonic projector at 480p, and the fidelity, brightness and colour accuracy isn't better than my cube playing those games with scan filter on my Sony KD-65ZD9, not even close, even with a screen size difference of more than 4 times the area. But granted, few will have those options, and ultimately those games were visually designed around softness of analogue interlaced video output.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Only with regards to what was released and supported by games to general gamers. The PS2 linux kit is supplied with a Dsub25 VGA output and I've personally output 1080p from it (it was to my KDL-46X3000 using the component cable with Xwindows manager I tested with).

One of Sony's failed first party titles I forgot (a gargoyle type game iirc) even unofficially worked with the VGA adapter, and I think Socom 2 did too.

Is the game you're speaking of Primal by chance?

The Linux kit for PS2 always intrigued me; while it's nice that supported VGA it still kind of sucks the main console did not have native VGA support, though I suppose you could pass a composite signal through a VGA adapter.

Although doing a quick look on Wiki shows PS2 also supported D-Terminal, which is interesting.

 

[StateofMajora]

Not Gamecube, but that's maybe because few people have access to the digital out cables (I've got a boxed component one I keep forgetting to ebay).

My cube is modded twice, once for the laser mod for running the special loader facility region free, and I also got my Dad to mod in one of the digital to hdmi boards with control pad menu mod too, so the scan filters menu can be accessed via a key combo. I remember how good games looked via s-video & RGB scart from the cube on my top of the line Sony KD-32X200 CRT, and how it looked on component on my Panasonic projector at 480p, and the fidelity, brightness and colour accuracy isn't better than my cube playing those games with scan filter on my Sony KD-65ZD9, not even close, even with a screen size difference of more than 4 times the area. But granted, few will have those options, and ultimately those games were visually designed around softness of analogue interlaced video output.

Yep, I play cube games through the Wii component cables, not GC. On the hd flat screen I use HDMI with Wii U.

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

has anyone experience in playing retro games on this?

its a Sony Wega KLV-L23M1

no one?

 

[DryvBy]

But crt monitors don't do that ?
CRT pc monitors show pixels precisely... right?! just round.
I have a crt in the basement. I had it connected maybe 2 years ago... and it looked normal.
I do remember resident evil 2 looking way better as a child... but who know now. I could start it up on that crt.

Here are some images last time I had it plugged in. I mainly wanted black levels out of it. But now that I am using lg oled, I don't feel the need to get back to it.... and the black levels were a bit disappointing honestly. The screen is a bit grey.
The motion is good though. RTCW and Max Payne rock on a crt
I also have older 15" hyundai crt (first pic) which is not flatscreen but it is so dim I have no idea how to fix it

Spoiler: old monitors

This is now my favorite set of pictures on the internet.

 

[squidilix]

It's been 14 years since I played on a CRT TV so I don't remember anymore.
But does a CRT really make such a big difference compared to playing it on normal TV/Monitor nowadays?
Is this edited images? Because Draculas Eyes is such a huge difference. Time to get a CRT again if true.

Yes
But you can also enjoy with Shaders on Retroarch..

Final Fantasy IX on Retroarch / Duckstation

Without Shaders

With Shaders...

The Best way is OLED + This... but you know.... OLED Burn in... well...


EDIT : Other screenshots

You can also found better screenshot here...

Mega Bezel Reflection Shader! - Feedback and Updates

Mega Bezel CRT Simulator This thread is about the Mega Bezel Reflection Shader for Retroarch! Here you can tell me what’s working for you and what could be better. If you are wondering “What is this thing?” here’s a nice little overview up sharing our ideas around the Mega Bezel project and...

forums.libretro.com

 

[PaintTinJr]

Is the game you're speaking of Primal by chance?

The Linux kit for PS2 always intrigued me; while it's nice that supported VGA it still kind of sucks the main console did not have native VGA support, though I suppose you could pass a composite signal through a VGA adapter.

Although doing a quick look on Wiki shows PS2 also supported D-Terminal, which is interesting.

Yeah that was the game. I didn't own it but tried the demo with the cable IIRC and the requirement was games needed to support sync-on-green, I believe..

My launch modded PS2 was mainly for playing Winning Eleven imports that gen - with metal gears, Ico, SotC, etc and a DVD player, and PS2 linux - so I don't still have it - gave it to a friend that needed a DVD player for a relative's care home lounge - but years later when the PS2 platform was completely jailbroken with the ability to run games from the internal drive I think I read that you could force sync-on-green mode for any game, in the same way that Swiss on GC allows forcing of different video options. So I suspect anyone with a nintendont-styled PS2 setup could probably get the D-SUB25/D-terminal cable and get pristine video output from any PS2 game, now.

 

[clem84]

If I want a good quality CRT TV for retro gaming nowadays, what should I look for? I hear good thing about Sony Trinitrons.

 

[BennyBlanco]

If I want a good quality CRT TV for retro gaming nowadays, what should I look for? I hear good thing about Sony Trinitrons.

Yea, they are the best. They also weigh like 400 lbs.

CRTs are sick but just too unwieldy to justify for me.

 

[Vick]

Those Max Payne screenshots man.. absolutely glorious.

Super nice setup dude.

 

[LordMuffin]

I used to swear by CRT but they're so bulky and mostly the geometry goes to shit after a certain screen size.
Fast forward to some months ago, when I purchased a really cheap Panasonic Plasma online (70 euros) and hooked an XSS running Retroarch to it. With a good CRT shader applied the motion clarity is just astounding, as well as the color vibrancy, all without all the inconveniences of a huge ass CRT and the benefit of having a relatively big screen too! Also, the lag is optimal with this model, so if you want to build a little retro corner I highly recommend doing it this way!

 

[PaintTinJr]

If I want a good quality CRT TV for retro gaming nowadays, what should I look for? I hear good thing about Sony Trinitrons.

Going by memory - that's hazy - Sony's last two UK flagship screens were the KD-32DX200 (which I had and was 10 stone , £1500 MSRP for 32", had amazing sound, Digital Reality Creation picture engine and a 1280x720 internal screen, but no component video to feed it HD sources) and the more expensive KD-36SX200 which was the same, but much heavier and had a component video input IIRC, but might have been a limited feature for the US model. That's basically the TV for showing in a museum to future generations IMHO.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I ran into problems with widescreens later on, but 4:3 CRT's are absolutely best for the likes of SNES, PSX, Saturn etc. No input lag and while there are some good conversions to 16:9 with appropriate filters, its still not the real deal.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Since we are in this thread, I was thinking about getting a 240 Hz 1080p monitor that I could use for older games where I know I can maintain 240 fps. Im talking about early 90s titles. Anyone have suggestions? I want it to have solid image quality and be as close to a CRT as possible. In DFW, despite being a huge region, actual CRTs are rather hard to come by.

 

[nkarafo]

Yes.

You aren't supposed to see the individual, fat pixels. Games were made with CRT blending in mind. Even composite cables were taken into account, creating transparencies and extra colors with their color bleed effect.

Which is why modern pixel art games that pose as "Retro" suck. They are not Retro because the games looked nothing like that. We didn't have sharp LCD panels back then to see those sharp pixels that can cut you. If you really want to emulate a retro 8/16 bit game on a modern panel, you need to use a proper CRT filter/shader.

And even then you won't be able to emulate the sharp looking motion/scrolling. Because CRTs may had blurrier still images but the motion was super sharp. With modern panels you get the opposite. Sharp still images and blurry motion.

 

[deriks]

lower the resolution, crt is more suitable in my experience.

If the console came with HDMI port - then it's good on the modern display...
but if the console didn't come with one, then CRT is better.

Wii is kinda weird though.
It looks better on CRT, for sure... but can't really imagine playing Wii game on a small screen due to the whole wiimote.
When I turn on my Wii games via Wii U on the HDTV.. I just sigh with how horrible they look.

CRT is too big and heavy though. My 17" monitor is heavier than my 65" OLED.

Wii on 32' HDTV with S-cable is not that bad. I still play from time to time

Actually, PS2/Xbox/GameCube/Dreamcast are also not that bad on modern TVs if you have better cables. CRTs still are better because of the smoothness of the screen, but I'm fine with HDTV in this gen - everything else before thou, is just CRT

 

[Ulysses 31]

Since we are in this thread, I was thinking about getting a 240 Hz 1080p monitor that I could use for older games where I know I can maintain 240 fps. Im talking about early 90s titles. Anyone have suggestions? I want it to have solid image quality and be as close to a CRT as possible. In DFW, despite being a huge region, actual CRTs are rather hard to come by.

Odyssey Neo G9 is 240Hz and can do way more than 1080p.