Support NeoGAF

[FloatOn]

This latest batch of high profile indie games I'm working through are kind of on the tough side of the difficulty spectrum (La-Mulana, FEZ and Monaco). Looking back though, this is nothing new, it seems in general indie games veer more to side of difficult and I'm trying to sort out why that is. My theories on the matter are this:

1) To increase the staying power of the game. Many indie games are on the shorter side in terms of actual content and if they were easy then it wouldn't take so long to beat them, thereby diminishing the value some customers place on them.

2) To earn some kind of fame by way of word of mouth. I want to be the guy is a good example of this.

3) This is where the thread title comes in. I'm wondering from a development point of view if many of these games difficulty is a huge middle finger to mainstream gaming. These independent developers grew up with games just like you and I did, perhaps the game they created is a reaction to how they see the industry failing these days. Whether that is in terms of gameplay mechanics, story or difficulty these games are often polar opposites of what we see in mainstream gaming and I love them for that.

So I'll ask again, if mainstream gaming were more challenging do you think indie games would be less tasked with carrying the "no hand holding" burden?

 

[Skyzard]

Well thought-out! I'm not sure of course but I can definitely see the first two especially being important factors and the third also for some of the more passionate developers [about traditional difficulties. Also if they were specifically going for that more challenging gameplay and demographic, which is less of a risk with indies].

I would add Guacamelee as a good recent example too tbh, does pump up the difficulty compared to most [in platforming and combat, as well as even more challenging sections when going for 100%], especially considering the style and theme of the game having quite a wide appeal.

 

[Doctor Decimate]

i think a lot of it is probably just trying to emulate a bygone era for nostalgic purposes as opposed to any sort of "statement". the pixelated graphics aren't necessarily a "middle finger" to 3-D graphics

 

[Furio53]

I think players crave challenges and solving problems, and a lot of indie games harken back to the "old school" difficulty. Mainstream games are easier because they need to sell more, so a wider audience is required. bigger budget, costlier production, so make the game more hand holding and the player base numbers open up.

Indie games usually have a more specific audience in mind, cheaper budgets, thus requiring fewer sales which allow them to take risks that most big publishers are wary of.


edit*

I should add that I think the rise in popularity of games such as Demon and Dark souls, as well as a lot of indie games, has to do with a lot of players really wanting a challenge when playing a game, and enjoying games that provide it.

 

[Bear]

I think it's really just a case of mainstream games targeting the lowest common denominator.

The difficulty of indie games spans the entire spectrum more evenly. Perhaps some of the hard games are just catering to an underserved market, but I think most of them just offer genuine challenges because they're good for gameplay.

 

[inm8num2]

I think indie games are more challenging because the developers don't feel as obligated to cater to "mainstream" audiences by making the game easier.

 

[Diablohead]

I think indie games are more challenging because the developers don't feel as obligated to cater to "mainstream" audiences by making the game easier.

This is how I see it.

 

[GopherD]

I think indie games are more challenging because the developers don't feel as obligated to cater to "mainstream" audiences by making the game easier.

Spot on

 

[jacksepticeye]

I wouldn't say they're difficult, I'd say everything else is just too easy. Sure some might be over difficult for the sake of it like you said, but I think overall they're just normal games that don't hold your hand as much.

 

[MoogPaul]

Came in expecting a throw away OP, found a well thought out and constructed argument. All points brought up are good, and some different combination of the three is most likely your answer. What combination is depending upon the game.

 

[Septimus Prime]

They say it's easier to design levels that are too hard than levels that are easy or manageable.

 

[transience]

I think indie games are just more focused on mechanics and level design while mainstream games focus more on setting and atmosphere. There is no place in the AAA space for a game like VVVVVV or Meat Boy.

 

[rohlfinator]

I imagine a lot of AAA games start out more difficult and then have it beaten out of them through focus testing.

 

[sixghost]

I don't think you can paint all indie games with one brush like this. For every Super Meat Boy or FTL, there are games like Journey, Bastion, Botanicula, and Limbo that aren't trying to be that difficult.

 

[Mandoric]

Modern AAA, especially in the west, lives on the idea that mechanical gameplay is one of four or five hooks alongside (at least) narrative, setting, and setpieces, and that being unwilling or unable to enjoy it shouldn't spoil your enjoyment of the rest.

On the other hand "indie" is extremely catchall, and due to small staffs tends to focus on a single hook. Sometimes this is gameplay, and sometimes the dev is just so focused on something else that he or she doesn't have the time or motivation to exhaustively rebalance.

And of course, when you've only got the budget to make six levels and ten enemies, you need to make sure that the player will be spending a lot of time on them.

 

[FloatOn]

This is the part where I admit that I kind of wish some indie games were not so mind bending. I think I would get more enjoyment if the took it down a notch or two. I'm thinking of Spacechem in particular here, try as I might that game sadly just flies right over my head.

 

[Skyzard]

I don't think you can paint all indie games with one brush like this. For every Super Meat Boy or FTL, there are games like Journey, Bastion, Botanicula, and Limbo that aren't trying to be that difficult.

True of course and a good point but I think what people notice is the difficulty seems to be generally getting harder with indies compared to bigger devs and publishers with their retail games. You see more SMB than you do Dark Souls etc.

Less worried about blowblack and taking a firmer stand on traditional video game values and experiences. There is no doubt you figuring out a puzzle leaves an impression and adds to satisfaction. Or generally having a more challenging game.

I think they might be worried it would be a lot less satisfying without the difficulty too as they don't have the added cinematics/big effects of retail games. Less distracted etc, more focus on the gaming itself.

 

[Open Source]

Also lack of available focus testers that represent casual gamers.

Edit: also a lot more true on PC than on the match-3 hell of mobile devices. But both are "indie"

 

[Skyzard]

Also lack of available focus testers that represent casual gamers.

And the ones they do get are probably more keen about the game rather than commenting to seem valuable.

/random assumptions

 

[Skilletor]

They say it's easier to design levels that are too hard than levels that are easy or manageable.

Who is this 'they'?

 

[pantsmith]

The people making indie games are also likely pulling from the "classics" that inspired them, as opposed to the peers raking in tons of money (a la Call of Duty, or whatever), and the "classics" are probably coming from 1980s and 90s, a time of harder difficulty because games were only trying to impress other gamers.

 

[rohlfinator]

They say it's easier to design levels that are too hard than levels that are easy or manageable.

I think it's more that it's easy for developers to underestimate their own skill and familiarity with the game. I've heard numerous devs talk about designing something that the team could easily breeze through, but new players found impossible to beat.

 

[BloodMoney]

Indie games are like the games of yesteryear... they are normal.
Modern video games are hold your hand baby step cake walks.

 

[El Sloth]

I always just assume the smaller indie games play a certain way because that's just the sort of game the developer would want to play his/herself.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

From the discussions I have had with NIGORO(the creators of La-Mulana) this is definitely part of their design philosophy although they look at it from a different angle.

To them as the industry has moved towards 3D games, the evolution of 2D games came to a standstill and the design lessons learned have been forgotten and not carried over to 3D games.

One of their goals is to continue and evolve 2D game design.
And of course anyone who has played La-Mulana knows that part of that design philosophy is challenging players with an absurd level of difficulty although not to the point of being unfair.

 

[Venin]

I wouldn't say they're difficult, I'd say everything else is just too easy. Sure some might be over difficult for the sake of it like you said, but I think overall they're just normal games that don't hold your hand as much.

This is really how I feel, too, personally.

Maybe AAA titles would be a little better on the difficulty side if they were to stop with all the needless tutorials and explanations. I've always hated how every AAA game nowadays has a map, mini-map, icon indicators, "quest trails," intractable objects that shine and glow, etc.

Those things are my biggest gripes about AAA video games today. It's very rare to have to figure something out on your own. It's even rarer to ever get physically lost in a game with all the maps and indicators they throw in your face. Speaking for myself, I need to be challenged in a video game to really enjoy myself.

You know what game I really enjoyed lately? Legend of Grimrock. That game is awesome. I turned off the map and jumped in. No dumb glowing or sparkly levers or buttons, no maps to help you out, no explanation as to what you need to do... It made me want to cry happy tears. The last AAA game I enjoyed that was similar was the original Metroid. It's been a damn while.

 

[charsace]

In some cases yes. Sometimes the games are just difficult period. Super Meat Boy and They Bleed Pixels are two great indie platformers that are much harder than any game in the Mario Allstars collection.

 

[joezombie]

Indie games are just more diverse, so you'll get harder games. You also get 'games' with no conventional difficulty whatsoever(Dear Esther, etc)

 

[AnbaLeumas]

Well if they make it harder because mainstream is easier then I'll start calling them "Hipster Games".

 

[Acerac]

I think indie games are more challenging because the developers don't feel as obligated to cater to "mainstream" audiences by making the game easier.

Can this be moved to the first post?

 

[Dr.Hadji]

"Mainstream" games also have difficulty modes that people love to forget about when talking about game difficulty.

I don't think you can paint all indie games with one brush like this. For every Super Meat Boy or FTL, there are games like Journey, Bastion, Botanicula, and Limbo that aren't trying to be that difficult.

And this as well.

 

[FloatOn]

I just wanted say a quick "thanks" before I head to bed, lots of really good insight here. Keep it coming.

I can only hope that with the continued success of the Souls series that mainstream gaming will stop all the catering to the lowest common denominator and that indies will maybe become okay with not ramping things up so absurdly in the way of difficulty.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

"Mainstream" games also have difficulty modes that people love to forget about when talking about game difficulty.



And this as well.

Most of those difficulty modes do absolutely jack shit to make a game more 'challenging' in my opinion. 99% of the time it just makes things more annoying than challenging. I know that is all subjective but increased difficulty modes are almost always botched attempts to increase challenge.

 

[FloatOn]

Most of those difficulty modes do absolutely jack shit to make a game more 'challenging' in my opinion. 99% of the time it just makes things more annoying than challenging. I know that is all subjective but increased difficulty modes are almost always botched attempts to increase challenge.

Pretty much this. They just increase the health or add extra enemies. In terms of actual intelligence nothing is improved.

 

[Dr.Hadji]

Most of those difficulty modes do absolutely jack shit to make a game more 'challenging' in my opinion. 99% of the time it just makes things more annoying than challenging. I know that is all subjective but increased difficulty modes are almost always botched attempts to increase challenge.

Eh, I don't think the some of the hard for the sake of being hard indie games is any better a method for making a "challenging" game. Nor do I think not telling the player how to play the game is a great way of introducing challenge as well.

 

[KenOD]

How many thousands of thousands of easy, simple, or not challenging at all indy titles do we ignore though when we talk about the harder, difficult, or challenging ones? I can't say, because I only remember that Super Meat Boy and forget the easy and forgettable platformers. How many single or smaller guys are making games easier, simpler, faster with in-app-purchases or special versions to get more sales and how many of us will care or notice if they do so if we are busy focusing on something else?

I wish in both "mainstream" and "indy" titles, challenge and skill improvement was more sought after than "difficulty".

 

[BudokaiMR2]

How many thousands of thousands of easy, simple, or not challenging at all indy titles do we ignore though when we talk about the harder, difficult, or challenging ones?

For every Super Meat Boy I've seen a dozen more basic and easy plataformer.

I don't think anyone in here is arguing that all indie games follow this trend.

However, it is hard to deny that it is harder to name legitimately challenging AAA games while you do not have to search far to find indie games with that level of challenge.

For example, what are three legitimately challenging AAA platformers made in the last 5 years? The only two I can even think of are Bionic Commando:Rearmed and Hard Corps....

 

[Alexios]

There are plenty easy indie games. You just choose what you like and lean towards the harder more involving titles.

La Mulana is nearly a decade old, and its remastered version is overall easier, yet still hard.

It's not a middle finger, it's creative freedom where these particular developers whose games tou mentioned didn't focus test everything, they couldn't anyway, so they made what they wanted and hoped for the best. It's not like they could make an AAA fps, or even would want to.

Also, not every non indie game is mainstream/easy, there are plenty smaller companies like Treasure, Platinum, From Software, and teams within larger companies, that do make relatively more niche and tougher games.

 

[VariantX]

I wonder if its just the AAA developer's desire to tell a story taking precedence over creating a more difficult game. If the selling point of your game is its story, you don't want the player to lose interest if he/she gets to a point in the game where the difficulty ramps up a bit too quickly and the player simply loses interest in continuing because the game itself (mechanics anyway) are a bit boring, underdeveloped, or copied from another game that the player may have already experienced before.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

Part of it is not being afraid to make the game more difficult.

The other part is that a lot of them are shit at actual challenging level design and instead make levels hard or the sake of being hard.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

There are plenty easy indie games. You just choose what you like and lean towards the harder more involving titles.

La Mulana is nearly a decade old, and its remastered version is overall easier, yet still hard.

It's not a middle finger, it's creative freedom where these particular developers whose games tou mentioned didn't focus test everything, they couldn't anyway, so they made what they wanted and hoped for the best. It's not like they could make an AAA fps, or even would want to.

Also, not every non indie game is mainstream/easy, there are plenty smaller companies like Treasure, Platinum, From Software, and teams within larger companies, that do make relatively more niche and tougher games.

Well the funny thing is that in a way the La Mulana remake WAS focus tested, as they were directly taking feedback from the community to tweak the game's balance. This is kind of a stretch I know....Heh

As you said it is overall easier however they did go in and buff up certain bosses that had exploits in the original version.

The difference is that instead of inviting a bunch of completely unrelated people into a room and getting their shitty opinions about stuff they don't understand, they went directly to their most hardcore fans to re-balance the game.

It's also interesting that you mention Treasure and Platinum as depending on how you define it those two developers are Indie.

 

[Dark Octave]

I think indie games are more challenging because the developers don't feel as obligated to cater to "mainstream" audiences by making the game easier.

I'm working on an indie game right now and this is pretty much the reason. That and as the OP said, the game is pretty short if you were to blast right through it without problems.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

They have to get by more on gameplay, ie, they are judged more by how well their game runs rather than how pretty it looks.

They say it's easier to design levels that are too hard than levels that are easy or manageable.

Any fool developer can do for the player (no enemies, less work!), but it takes a skilled developer can make things right.

 

[FloatOn]

It's not purely contrarian. They serve an undeserved market, and high difficulty is great for low budget games because it stretches out the time it takes to get through content.

AAA games would still be hard if they were still forced to make fairly small games due to storage limitations. Right now it's in vogue to ship games packed with content regardless of quality, so you get behemoths like Skyrim.

Indie games are just as notorious for going the opposite direction, by the way. To The Moon and Dear Esther, for example.

I would agree with this more if there were not so many 8-15 hour long games out there (looking at pretty much every fps and tps this gen). I think there are far more shorter games out there than longer in the AAA scene and I think they would do well for themselves to spend a bigger portion of their budget on actually focusing on the intelligence of the enemies and the pacing of the encounters.

If this became the norm I think that we would see a balancing in both gaming scenes and maybe reach some semblance of what it looks like to have a decent difficulty without feeling the need to be absurd about it.

 

[KDR_11k]

Perhaps you mean "why are there harder indie games than mainstream games?". I've played indie games of all kinds and difficulties. Some are pushovers, some wouldn't be out of place in a torture chamber. Some are both, depending on where you put the difficulty slider. There's simply a lot of them and random distribution mandates that some will be hard. There are orders of magnitude more indie games than AAA games out there.

If there's an average towards higher difficulty I could imagine it being a lack of focus groups, indies test their games either only themselves or by giving it to other veteran gamers. These are going to have a higher average skill than the people focus group tests grab and thus an appropriate level of challenge will be slightly higher.