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Are modern fighting games too obtuse?
- Thread starter Deft Beck
- Start date
Because after a while, most players will rely on setups which will result in a 50/50 mix-up of some sort. Telling a player "Your opponent relies on coinflips" is almost useless. If anything, developers should look at trends in their games and explain in game what is happening and how to possibly prevent it/get around it. The problem is the community notices these trends and puts out information faster than the devs, and since determining matchup/tier charts are not an exact science due to almost quantum mechanical decisions by players, this is almost impossible and not worth the money.
It would be better if the devs put in: Better tutorials, breakdowns of matches by top players, execution exercises and a guaranteed patch schedule.
Deft Beck
Gold Member
I agree on your points. A game should encourage a player to commit to learning its mechanics and foster the development of skills through competition with similarly skilled players. As tutorial and matchmaking systems improve, this will remove many of the barriers that complex systems present to newbies.
I don't think fighting games are any more confusing than whatever other genre. As others have said, it's all about how much time you put into it. You'll naturally get better with inputs and reads if you make the slightest bit of effort. That's life in general.
One thing I got to say, I think some fighting games like Blazblue or Skullgirls explain too much. When your tutorial starts explaining how characters are meant to be used (Blazblue), I think you end up sacrificing some of the satisfaction that comes from exploring and discovering the move set. It sort of gives the impression that there's only one way to play a character and that can lead to some frustrating growing pains. New players get so caught up on beginners tactics and combos that they lose focus on the person their fighting against.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I genuinely believe that more people would have success at fighting games if they just learned how to read their opponents instead of just trying to do combos. It's annoying how some people actively discourage turtling when you play online. There's nothing wrong with playing defensively. More beginners should be taught how to defend well rather than be given a list of combos to use.
One thing I got to say, I think some fighting games like Blazblue or Skullgirls explain too much. When your tutorial starts explaining how characters are meant to be used (Blazblue), I think you end up sacrificing some of the satisfaction that comes from exploring and discovering the move set. It sort of gives the impression that there's only one way to play a character and that can lead to some frustrating growing pains. New players get so caught up on beginners tactics and combos that they lose focus on the person their fighting against.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I genuinely believe that more people would have success at fighting games if they just learned how to read their opponents instead of just trying to do combos. It's annoying how some people actively discourage turtling when you play online. There's nothing wrong with playing defensively. More beginners should be taught how to defend well rather than be given a list of combos to use.
Arc Christelle
Member
lol I actually welcome the complexity, When I saw high-level play of Alpha 3, 3rd Strike, and MVC2 when I was in high school, that shit hyped me up so much that I had to improve. Especially when it came to Custom Combos and Gen-ei-jin. Also I agree with you. I love some goddamn lever throws.
I know just the video for ya.
lol not really, since not too many people still play MVC2. but there are plenty of things I learned from this video that I actually use in real matches. Namely Shoryuken nullifiers.
EDIT: I wish I could find Magnetro's Explanatory parts of it.
Deft Beck
Gold Member
1.) Exactly.
2.) Perhaps they just focus on different challenges.
3.) I agree that practice is important. It's just about ensuring that people will be willing to practice in the first place instead of dropping a game altogether. But, yes, some genres are not for everybody.
Leave fighters alone, please. Can you imagine fighters with QTEs where no skill or practice is needed to make flashy stuff happen? D: Also, there are lots of fighters and some of them are easier to "get" than others, so it's not like every single fighter is impossibly complex. Not to mention you can play "casually" any fighter out there and still have fun.
Deft Beck
Gold Member
Maybe not exactly like that. The problem is how to encourage the player to tough it out. Feedback and reinforcement upon successful use of tactics is very important.
Most players by what metric? You're assuming too much predictability.
I agree on your second point, though. It would certainly reduce a lot of guesswork on the player and dev sides.
Deft Beck
Gold Member
Such a fighter as you suggested would be unappealing to all but the most casual player, and that would be unexciting to most people on this forum. I recognize the purpose of your hyperbole, though.
Fighters don't have to be less complex, but it should not be as difficult to grasp all of its systems and play competently after a while. There is room for fighting games of all types.
IdiotMyshkin
Banned
By what happens in the modern day. All the "newbs/scrubs" leave after a while and the bottom rung players are actually mid-tier players save a select few, which in turns raises the bar of entry. A lot of fighting games player bases decrease overtime as the game gets older, and the only ones remaining are seasoned vets. This isn't a bad thing altogether, as a new player in an older game can look at what tactics work and doesn't have to figure it out from scratch.
Deft Beck
Gold Member
1.) People should be confident that their time is being used efficiently and effectively while learning something. Otherwise, they might feel that their time and effort has been wasted when they are still being defeated repeatedly.
2.) Perhaps they are missing the point. They aren't teaching the right things, putting emphasis on characters instead of mechanics.
3.) Do you think it's possible for a tutorial to discuss the metagame, even if briefly?
Deft Beck
Gold Member
Perhaps that pattern is inherent to a lot of fighting games, but it doesn't discount the importance of easing a player into a game's mechanics off the bat.
dacuk
Member
The amount of time required to practice, to maintain an average level in SF4 is humongous.
I started playing fighting games in 1992, with SF2, paused playing them from 1995 until 1999, when I buy a DC and played all the nice fighting games in it (SF3, MsvC, Capcom vs SNK, etc.)
While I was never a pro, I was still able to enjoy playing them with my friends.
Now, SF4 and UMvsC3 demand a level of dedication and time to be somewhat proficient, that the fun in playing them is lost there, just turning them into a boring training, count-the-frames game, where you just wait for your oponent to do a mistake and then punish it.
I prefer to invest my time playing other games where your investment of time in them is more satisfying.
My humble opinión, though.
I started playing fighting games in 1992, with SF2, paused playing them from 1995 until 1999, when I buy a DC and played all the nice fighting games in it (SF3, MsvC, Capcom vs SNK, etc.)
While I was never a pro, I was still able to enjoy playing them with my friends.
Now, SF4 and UMvsC3 demand a level of dedication and time to be somewhat proficient, that the fun in playing them is lost there, just turning them into a boring training, count-the-frames game, where you just wait for your oponent to do a mistake and then punish it.
I prefer to invest my time playing other games where your investment of time in them is more satisfying.
My humble opinión, though.
Complex how? It's very easy to play and understand, its depth stems from very little damage being guaranteed. Everything comes from reading your opponent.Someone should make an accessibility tier list of fighting game seriesWhich fighter is considered to be the most complex? Virtua Fighter?
Teknopathetic
Member
"While I was never a pro, I was still able to enjoy playing them with my friends.
Now, SF4 and UMvsC3 demand a level of dedication and time to be somewhat proficient, that the fun in playing them is lost there, just turning them into a boring training, count-the-frames game, where you just wait for your oponent to do a mistake and then punish it."
The real response to this is that the world is larger now than it was when you were playing local vs your friends. Your skill level was never average or even proficient back then, there was just no internet, no youtube, no online play, so you didn't know how bad you and your friends actually were. Now you do.
Now, SF4 and UMvsC3 demand a level of dedication and time to be somewhat proficient, that the fun in playing them is lost there, just turning them into a boring training, count-the-frames game, where you just wait for your oponent to do a mistake and then punish it."
The real response to this is that the world is larger now than it was when you were playing local vs your friends. Your skill level was never average or even proficient back then, there was just no internet, no youtube, no online play, so you didn't know how bad you and your friends actually were. Now you do.
Someone should make an accessibility tier list of fighting game series
I don't know that complexity strictly equals accessibility. Take 3rd strike, parrying makes that game tough to play at a high level. You are hosed if you can't parry.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
We never want to be normal or average at things we're good at.
This too. I'd wade thru the thread for the "parries are too tough!" and "fighting games got too complicated and ran off the casuals!" posts, but I know they're there anyways.
This too. I'd wade thru the thread for the "parries are too tough!" and "fighting games got too complicated and ran off the casuals!" posts, but I know they're there anyways.
Someone should make an accessibility tier list of fighting game series
VF is easy, I wish people would stop calling it hard :[
I'm admittedly ignorant about VF, but I mostly hear that it's more complex than other fighters :O I bought Final Showdown and I had fun with it, but ultimately I don't have offline people to play with.
How else are you going to win at a competitive game?
I don't think the mechanics should be dumbed down (that wouldn't be good for anyone), but there has to be more of an incentive for newcomers to want to learn the mechanics, whether it be through tutorials (tutorials as they are now are terrible) or other means.
MOBAs have steep learning curves but are extremely popular right now, so maybe fighting game developers should look at what those games are doing right in terms of attracting new players.
MOBAs have steep learning curves but are extremely popular right now, so maybe fighting game developers should look at what those games are doing right in terms of attracting new players.
Teknopathetic
Member
"MOBAs have steep learning curves but are extremely popular right now, so maybe fighting game developers should look at what those games are doing right in terms of attracting new players."
You can blame 4 other people when you lose in a MOBA (and people do frequently), which doesn't frustrate in the same way. That's why, despite having as much nuance as they have, MOBAs continue to be hot right now. Also, they're free to play. That last bit is important.
You can blame 4 other people when you lose in a MOBA (and people do frequently), which doesn't frustrate in the same way. That's why, despite having as much nuance as they have, MOBAs continue to be hot right now. Also, they're free to play. That last bit is important.
I don't think I've seen it tried in the fighting games that I've played. However, it should be a point of emphasis, don't you think?
I think it's much easier for people to play cautiously instead of trying to win playing aggressively which is how most newcomers play (at least if the VF and SC crowds are any indication).
waifus and sven
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
In SF2, you don't have all those comeback mechanics to save you if your ground game is sloppy. And the combos were way more punishing because there was no damage scaling.
Teknopathetic
Member
"3.) Do you think it's possible for a tutorial to discuss the metagame, even if briefly?"
"Metagame" as MOBA players like to call it, doesn't really exist in a fighting game. Characters take too much effort to truly master for people to shift around often.
"Metagame" as MOBA players like to call it, doesn't really exist in a fighting game. Characters take too much effort to truly master for people to shift around often.
I've had people that had no idea how to play fighting games play SF2, SF4, Mortal Kombat, MVC3, MVC2, Power Stone, Tekken, and Smash Bros have a lot of fun with them. They are playing the games to have fun and don't need to know all the infinite combos or the details about each mechanic of the game A lot of people are perfectly happy with jumping around and mashing buttons. You can't get into any game expecting to be an expert unless it is a modern "AAA" game that is easy from the start and directly tells you everything you need to do.
I know how to play Smash Bros and all the Capcom fighting games and am pretty good at them. Not like a tournament player but just a fan of fun games. I have no idea what the infinite combos, hit boxes, or glitches are. As with any classic style game you get better with more experience, that is how you master any game.
Despite what the fighting game community thinks, the majority of people who bought MVC3, SFIV, and Mortal Kombat were not hardcore tournament players, just general consumers.
I know how to play Smash Bros and all the Capcom fighting games and am pretty good at them. Not like a tournament player but just a fan of fun games. I have no idea what the infinite combos, hit boxes, or glitches are. As with any classic style game you get better with more experience, that is how you master any game.
Despite what the fighting game community thinks, the majority of people who bought MVC3, SFIV, and Mortal Kombat were not hardcore tournament players, just general consumers.
ihearthawthats
Banned
f2p?
tekken revolution is a good game, and a great game for beginners imo.
ultimately though, i think it comes down to fun. no matter how hard or long it takes to master a game, people will play it because it's fun.
fun is quite an ambigious word. personally, i think part of the "fun" in moba's comes from character empowerment. killing creeps and buying items in the shop is something everyone can do in a match and find enjoyable, win or lose. also similar to fps, you can get a kill or win a battle, but still lose the match. i'm not sure if something like that directly translates to fgs. it's much harder to take a round in a 2/3 match consistently. i think marvel format is great, because it's just a single round and killing even just 1 character can be satisfying, similar to fps.
one mechanic that seems popular is comeback mechanics. people can hate on it all they want, but it makes the game fun.
I don't think anyone thinks otherwise.
Gunstar Ikari
Unconfirmed Member
Rage of the Dragons?
The high-level tactics in a fighting game seem fun and interesting, but getting there just seems... not necessarily difficult. Obtuse is a good way to say it, actually. Pointlessly obtuse.
I don't understand the point of hiding all the good gameplay under layers and layers of bullshit. Why is the special move mapped to down back quarter circle high strong kick and why would I want to get good at doing it when I can go play another game that immediately bases its learning curve on actual human skillsets like problem solving, decision making, etc?
Like, I'm not trying to be a dick here. If someone could explain the appeal to me...
I don't understand the point of hiding all the good gameplay under layers and layers of bullshit. Why is the special move mapped to down back quarter circle high strong kick and why would I want to get good at doing it when I can go play another game that immediately bases its learning curve on actual human skillsets like problem solving, decision making, etc?
Like, I'm not trying to be a dick here. If someone could explain the appeal to me...
What exactly is your complaint? A moves execution is directly tied to its utility, it's balance, the circumstances under which you would want to use said move. Change the motion, change the strategy.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I don't understand the point of hiding all the good gameplay under layers and layers of bullshit. Why is the special move mapped to down back quarter circle high strong kick and why would I want to get good at doing it when I can go play another game that immediately bases its learning curve on actual human skillsets like problem solving, decision making, etc?"
A lot of moves in fighting games are balanced by their (relative) difficulty to perform. For example, Guile's Sonic Boom requires you to charge for 2 seconds before you can use it, but it recovers significantly faster than Ryu's fireball, for example. These things make two moves that are pretty similar (a ranged projectile) *very* different.
Also, they're really not even remotely difficult to perform. Quarter circle motions are really, really, really, really, really, really, really not hard. Same with charge moves. I don't even know why some perpetuate this idea. If you have any amount of competence on a game pad (which you've likely built up over the years of playing games in other genres), it really can't take more than a few minutes to wrap your head around the motion. It really boggles me.
A lot of moves in fighting games are balanced by their (relative) difficulty to perform. For example, Guile's Sonic Boom requires you to charge for 2 seconds before you can use it, but it recovers significantly faster than Ryu's fireball, for example. These things make two moves that are pretty similar (a ranged projectile) *very* different.
Also, they're really not even remotely difficult to perform. Quarter circle motions are really, really, really, really, really, really, really not hard. Same with charge moves. I don't even know why some perpetuate this idea. If you have any amount of competence on a game pad (which you've likely built up over the years of playing games in other genres), it really can't take more than a few minutes to wrap your head around the motion. It really boggles me.
To be honest the only thing that starts to bother me is 1 frame or 2 frame links, this shit is not hard its just stupid for the most part i doesnt require "skill" its more a matter of luck and how you "feel" today add in playing over the internet and it turns 1 frame links into pure gambling. The rest i can deal with but 1 frame links is just bullshit.
How would you differentiate between who is good and bad at the game without having layers of depth that need to be earned/attained?
Just seems like people who misunderstand fighting games misunderstand what makes a competitive game good and competition in general.
Because execution is part of fighting games. In P4A, some characters have Shoruken-equivalent moves with the use of two buttons. This dumbing down did not result in a better game, or teach beginning players better habits IMO. I think execution should be a little bit of a barrier in a good fighting game.
just pretend the qcf motion is you aiming the reticule in an fps and the strong kick the trigger
OnimaruXLR
Member
I don't really have a problem with fighters as they are, but more that the genre seems to be pretty stagnant as a whole. They're relegated to niche titles now so nobody takes risk; people are just glad if they get new sequels, much less anything crazy and different. If the current atmosphere had been around in the late 90s/early 00s, there would've never been games like Bushido Blade, Tobal, Smash Bros or Powerstone.
The last fighting game that made me think "Huh, that's kinda different" in a good way (that didn't involve simplifying things to sub-Punch Out levels of strategy for FUCKING phones) was Def Jam Vendetta Fight for New York. And that was like, 50% wrestling game! As someone who is never going to be one of those Evo dudes, but still enjoys fighting games at a pretty-terrible-at-them-level, I'd like to see titles beyond the old classics pop up occasionally and do something different.
The last fighting game that made me think "Huh, that's kinda different" in a good way (that didn't involve simplifying things to sub-Punch Out levels of strategy for FUCKING phones) was Def Jam Vendetta Fight for New York. And that was like, 50% wrestling game! As someone who is never going to be one of those Evo dudes, but still enjoys fighting games at a pretty-terrible-at-them-level, I'd like to see titles beyond the old classics pop up occasionally and do something different.
1 frame links aren't inherent in a system. They're the result of moves being a certain amount of frames to initiate. And judging something by how difficult it is to do over the internet is a poor way to do anything.
It's not like Ono was sitting around going, "Make Cammy's strong be +5 on hit annd make her c.fp be 4 frames. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I HAVE CREATED A LINK! FEAR ME, INTERNETS!"
If that's the case, play Blazblue. Generous buffer window. don't have too deal with links.
Leave links alone.
#linksforlife
I will explain to you why this complaint will fall on deaf ears when directed at fans of fighting games, and it's quite simple: input motions are not hard, and if you don't have the dedication to overcome that hurdle then the amount of streamlining required to get *you* to play fighting games is unacceptable. Furthermore, even if you finally get past the relatively tiny hurdle that is input motions and you discover that the entire reason people who enjoy playing fighting games competitively do so because it is literally just a field of infinite hurdles to be overcome, you'll quit anyway because making fighting games take less work to "learn" just masks the fact that fighting games are all about learning.
If you make the skill floor higher by making the game super intuitive, all you're doing is making the bad players look more flashy.
Make basic combo execution easier? The game will become less about comboing (which is easy) and more about mindgames (which is hard).
Make mind games easier to reconcile? The inverse will happen.
Make them both easy? People will drop your game like a rock.
No matter you will do, bad players will still get trashed by anyone decent at the game and the complaint will be reduced to what it actually is: You don't want to put in the effort to become decent at fighting games. This is a perfectly understandable position to take of course, as being decent at a fighting game is almost like a second job. But what you are asking by trying to make fighting games more intuitive is contradicting the appeal of fighting games in the first place.
BlazBlue has combos with small rooms for error in the range of 1F. The input buffer doesn't change the fact that some combos involve delay and dashes.
ihearthawthats
Banned
execution is part of rts and fps games too. sc measures/glorifies apm. not just any new player can pull off headshots in fps games. etc. etc.
I like this post.
same here. Learned all the motions as a little kid playing SF2. If pre-teens can learn it, anyone can. And all those motions carry over to other 2D games. 3D games barely have complex input motions at all.
I think he is making an "intuitiveness" argument. With FPS you point and click, RTS you hotkey etc. A qcf + p seems un-intuitive to beginners, but makes sense as you gain experience.
As a "leaver fighters alone!" person, I think this is a good thing.
Because I only get 60-70% success rate on mine and many other people apparently feel the same way. And I don't suck at shooters for example, so it's not just gamepad proficiency.
The difficulty of actually performing moves is what kills fighting games for me, I like my special moves defined by how God of War does it, so I can actually concentrate on strategy and not just trying to do the moves.
Anyway, I'm not asking for the fighting community to change or anything, just explaining that I have a real problem with stuff like QCF, and I think it's outdated since it's 2013 and we're all using analog sticks now.
I'm happy with not playing fighting games and will never miss them, but just trying to explain why no fighting game ever will be as accessible as a FPS.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Anyway, I'm not asking for the fighting community to change or anything, just explaining that I have a real problem with stuff like QCF, since it's 2013 and we're all using analog sticks now."
There's still dpads on the gamepads, you know. Use the right tool for the right job.
There's still dpads on the gamepads, you know. Use the right tool for the right job.