Dat Warner Bros money at work, mang.
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Are modern fighting games too obtuse?
- Thread starter Deft Beck
- Start date
Dat Warner Bros money at work, mang.
If they're killing you by punishing your moves, you're the better tactician?
Edit:
Ah, ok. That makes more sense.
Arc Christelle
Member
Nah. I've beaten combo monsters in BB just with the basics and mix-ups. A person who can do combos but plays recklessly, gets wrecked.
Yep.The reason for this is because they're seen as common strategies among players of all skill ranges, so it's assumed that it's something that just "known" and not necessarily concepts enforced by the developers.
Like I always say, knowing the basics is the first step to improvement.
Terareflection
Member
I trying to disagree with him, left out the "no".
Maybe it was a poor tactic to perform that unsafe move.
EDIT: Didn't see your edit.
Anecdotal, but I've been meaning to upload a Lau mirror from a few weeks ago. I dropped all but one of my combos, my opponent was on point doing wall combos pretty consistently. But I won, because I was reading him like a book. Across four rounds, I escaped eight throws. Felt real good.
You either want to learn or you don't. If you want to play the game just for fun in a casual way, I'm pretty sure you can find other people like you online. They shouldn't dumb down their games. Most fighting games take time to learn, they're a challenge to me and I like that.
We can even take a non-fighting game like NHL 13 as an example, I sucked at it at the beginning, I was still accustomed to using a button to shoot instead of the right stick, I didn't complain and I kept on practicing. I now simply can't see myself playing with the old controls anymore.
We can even take a non-fighting game like NHL 13 as an example, I sucked at it at the beginning, I was still accustomed to using a button to shoot instead of the right stick, I didn't complain and I kept on practicing. I now simply can't see myself playing with the old controls anymore.
shadowstar
Member
I don't agree. My training partner gets the best of me in UMVC3 despite very basic combos because he has superior fundamentals. We both use Wesker and I go for max damage optimized combos, yet he hits me more than I hit him and wins. In high level play, ChrisG bodies everyone in Marvel not because he has the best combos. He doesn't have the best Morrigan, Doom, Vergil, or Magneto combos but his neutral and fundamentals are rock solid as evidenced by his play across many games.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
You realize I suck at combos right? I can already say this statement is false from my own experience.
If you are mediocre at opening me up or the events of a fight and the options available I really don't give a shit how big of a combo you can do to me. Hell congrats on landing it on me twice in a match if you do.
But when that terminology is used long enough I think it should appear in the game. And it apparently doesn't occur as "common sense" to people who are totally new to fighting games. I just think having to seek any kind of outside help just to take your first step into a competitive video game is a barrier that puts a lot of people off.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Except that you don't need to if you are dedicated enough, how in the world do you think people figure out a new game?
MikeBreezy92
Member
Pretty much. Its just the outside sources ACCELERATE the time it takes to actually break down and learn the game. But stepping into the game competitively is completely optional is not what makes them obtuse.
Arc Christelle
Member
Also for newer players.
LEARN HOW TO BLOCK
A good defense can be a good offense sometmes too.
Neutral Guard - Going into neutral guard is usually done by pressing the opposite direction of your opponent. Can be beaten by crouching attacks, sweeps, and throws.
Crouching Guard - (Holding Down + Opposite Direction) Defends against both neutral and crouching attacks, can be beaten by "overheads", jumping attacks, and throws.
Air Guard - Guarding while in the air, not a common ability in Fighting Games but has shown up in games such as Street Fighter Alpha, Garou, Vs. Series, Rival Schools, Most Arc System Works fighters.
--------
[BONUS SHIT]
Overheads - "Overheads" are attacks that are used to penetrate crouching defense by.... well going over their head. lol (ex. Ryu's Crouching Medium) In Third Strike and Garou Mark of the Wolves characters had universal overheads (MP+MK/LP+LK) Very good for players who wanted to go on the offensive. Things like this is why it's always important to know your character and their normals(basic attacks). In KOF, short hops are used frequently for this type of opening and pressure.
In some fighting games, there are systems that you can use to nullify damage like Parrying in Street Fighter 3, Focus Attack in SFIV (like anyone uses it for that purpose), Just Defense in Garou.
If you're playing KOF you can counter opponents by holding back and using the Heavy Attack (HP+HK) in cases this comes at a cost of your Power Gauge.
-------
Once you understand the basics, you can focus on the mindgames and metagame when it comes to fighters. It's reasons like this I loved MVC2, it was like a warzone with different strategies and focused on creative team synergy. But that's another discussion.
LEARN HOW TO BLOCK
A good defense can be a good offense sometmes too.
Neutral Guard - Going into neutral guard is usually done by pressing the opposite direction of your opponent. Can be beaten by crouching attacks, sweeps, and throws.
Crouching Guard - (Holding Down + Opposite Direction) Defends against both neutral and crouching attacks, can be beaten by "overheads", jumping attacks, and throws.
Air Guard - Guarding while in the air, not a common ability in Fighting Games but has shown up in games such as Street Fighter Alpha, Garou, Vs. Series, Rival Schools, Most Arc System Works fighters.
--------
[BONUS SHIT]
Overheads - "Overheads" are attacks that are used to penetrate crouching defense by.... well going over their head. lol (ex. Ryu's Crouching Medium) In Third Strike and Garou Mark of the Wolves characters had universal overheads (MP+MK/LP+LK) Very good for players who wanted to go on the offensive. Things like this is why it's always important to know your character and their normals(basic attacks). In KOF, short hops are used frequently for this type of opening and pressure.
In some fighting games, there are systems that you can use to nullify damage like Parrying in Street Fighter 3, Focus Attack in SFIV (like anyone uses it for that purpose), Just Defense in Garou.
If you're playing KOF you can counter opponents by holding back and using the Heavy Attack (HP+HK) in cases this comes at a cost of your Power Gauge.
-------
Once you understand the basics, you can focus on the mindgames and metagame when it comes to fighters. It's reasons like this I loved MVC2, it was like a warzone with different strategies and focused on creative team synergy. But that's another discussion.
I have those moments as well, VF isn't as combo reliant as most fighters, you're not going to get 100+ damage of a 12-frame jab.
Generally, the high combo folks I play aren't even mediocre tactically to the point where it's boring and I just let them beat themselves, or they're top tier players who would beat me without them.
Xie has uploaded alot of cool P4A related videos and his interview with the players is the most interesting.
This particular interview with DIEchan is pretty much spot on with how I feel about people complaining about not improving.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYykCKPjP0c
This particular interview with DIEchan is pretty much spot on with how I feel about people complaining about not improving.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYykCKPjP0c
petran79
Banned
regarding fighting games, i havent followed any tutorials. I did some training for a few months but dropped it. Prefer to play intuitevely.
Still cant apply fadc in sf4 but at least i can play c.viper, after 2 years.
This is the reason i enjoy them. Playing the game flowchart-like would kill it for me.
Hence why fighters turned uninteresting when arcades closed and online play was established, with better players stomping the newbies.
Regarding vampire savior, for characters like lei lei and morrigan, an arcade stick solves your hands. 6 button games are a pain with 4 button gamepad.
You shouldnt worry about your skill gap. Just play how you like. I dont care if i lose 20 games in a row. Playing and adapting is the most important
Still cant apply fadc in sf4 but at least i can play c.viper, after 2 years.
This is the reason i enjoy them. Playing the game flowchart-like would kill it for me.
Hence why fighters turned uninteresting when arcades closed and online play was established, with better players stomping the newbies.
Regarding vampire savior, for characters like lei lei and morrigan, an arcade stick solves your hands. 6 button games are a pain with 4 button gamepad.
You shouldnt worry about your skill gap. Just play how you like. I dont care if i lose 20 games in a row. Playing and adapting is the most important
The odds of that happening at anything but the bottom level of play is slim. I don't care how good your reads are; if you're only doing a maximum of, like 700 damage a hit you're going to lose to someone doing at least 2k. You have to out-read them, like, six or seven hits to one.
shadowstar
Member
Everyone whining in here should be watching Noah, 10 years old, playing Marvel 3 at Evo. Too complex for them, just fine for a kid?
DjangoReinhardt
Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
I had a lot more time to devote to videogames when I had no responsibilities whatsoever, too.
The last 20 years have seen a steady accumulation of mechanics and swelling of cast sizes, but I don't think that those changes have yielded net improvements to the genre. What they have done is give us games that carry ever-increasing time requirements. Fighting games are my favorite genre, but I'm probably not going to bother with them next gen because they're just too much of a timesink now.
I don't think it really takes that much more time to learn how to play BlazBlue or whatever compared to, say, Darkstalkers. Fighting games might seem like they're getting more complicated because the internet exists and weird exploits and engine-specific glitches are brought to public attention faster than ever before.
Arc Christelle
Member
Intermediate matches with friends, I got my own BnB to rely on as well. I'm not a beast at BB but I can troll the hell out of someone. Not to mention my patterns weren't always predictable, unless I wanted to troll with Tsubaki (I'm a scrub at BB) and just stop every thing with jabs for the fuck of it, play keep away and charge just to do the basics. But that was like probably......2-3 years ago when Continuum Shift was first released. The game and the players have most likely changed alot by now.
Get em while they're young. That's how I got started. I think adapting is more of a challenge for older people. It may also be the reason why I'm not interested in re learning SC or learning Tekken after all this time, even though I go out and play a lot of gems and take the time to learn those.
Man buy the games you like and play with your friends. A lot of beasts don't even frequent online play. They just play amongst each other. People with low ranks and status hop on line and demolish players who's been building points for months/years.
I dunno. I find Arc System Works games more difficult to adapt to, because of the big input window, it starts to become about managing your habits to stay consistent. I have a bad habit of making shit up on the fly, not to mention there's not many ASW games I've actually ever dedicated myself to (BF,HnK). So sometimes just from fucking around I could end up breaking up into mashing.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Generally I dislike it when people assume less buttons = dumbed down, and some even see it as a modern trend. Jojo came out in the 90's and it wasn't the first three/four button game!
Hell, people complain that SNK games only have 4 buttons!
Hell, people complain that SNK games only have 4 buttons!
Arc Christelle
Member
Why?
I understand when people may feel a game feels mashy (reasons why I wasn't a fan of melty blood at first, now that I know how to play it..... still not a fan, them character designs....)
(On a side note, I wish switching out in MVC3 was something that wasn't hold assist button. I liked Tatsu's idea better (assist + back)
Matter in fact... I wish MVC3 didn't end up being a simplified Tatsu. But it is what it is. -shrug-
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I guess it's more on people assuming that every fighter will follow SF's format.
I honestly think 4 is a nice button spread.
I honestly think 4 is a nice button spread.
shadowstar
Member
People are in here whining about qcf and srk motions and fundamentals. They've had 20 years to learn them. Noah has been alive less time than they've been unable to do them.
thesolidshark
Member
I really hope those complain about the FGs being obtuse don't view EVO this year and see skill levels that should be obtainable ONLY by what the game teaches you, and not as much time spent in playing as the players who've made it to Top 8, 16, 32, and maybe 64 too.
I would argue that this isn't true. SF4 is no more of a time sink to learn than SSF2T was, and that came out almost 20 years ago.
I know someone, who is also a poster here on gaf, who doesn't enjoy fighting games because he is bad at them, but he also refuses to put in the time to learn them. Is that the games fault? The fighting game genre is my favorite genre. But when I was first learning SF4 vanilla, I was awful at it. But I ENJOYED being bad and learning to get better. That process of learning new mechanics and match ups and finding the character that fit me best is part of the fighting game experience.
If someone doesn't like that process, and complains about the genre being "too obtuse", then the genre (or maybe just 2D fighters) are probably not for you.
This times 100. Every time this thread topic comes up, this is what needs to be said.
Can I just say, I find this topic really interesting, so thanks all for the discussion! I was actually thinking of making a topic on a similar subject but this has just about covered it.
I want to get good at fighting games but I've never really been able to get to grips with the combo system in games like Street Fighter 4. I want to love the games but until I get the timing/rhythm down I don't think I'll be able to. I'm starting to watch YouTube videos to help, we'll see how effective that is. One move's fine, it's when we're chaining moves together that I lose it completely. My main problem is definitely that I never put enough time into them. A more extensive training mode might help to make things more interesting but really there's enough in these games for me to get by.
With that said I don't think any amount of time could get me to play UMvC3 to an acceptable standard, heh.
I want to get good at fighting games but I've never really been able to get to grips with the combo system in games like Street Fighter 4. I want to love the games but until I get the timing/rhythm down I don't think I'll be able to. I'm starting to watch YouTube videos to help, we'll see how effective that is. One move's fine, it's when we're chaining moves together that I lose it completely. My main problem is definitely that I never put enough time into them. A more extensive training mode might help to make things more interesting but really there's enough in these games for me to get by.
With that said I don't think any amount of time could get me to play UMvC3 to an acceptable standard, heh.
thesolidshark
Member
For your time issue, depending on your schedule, see if you can devote 30min to an hour to practice the fighter you want to play. Before you even worry about links, know the single moves (normals, specials, supers, etc) inside out (their reach, their speed), and get to know the systems of the game.
With links and comboing, if you're having trouble performing them, don't hesitate to reach out to fan-made guides or other players. Combos that you do know, practice them with still and cpu dummies. Maybe challenge yourself with things like performing the combos with your eyes closed, going off audio cues (this should definitely come after you confidently can perform a combo on command).
Most importantly though, have fun.
viewtiful_dru
Member
problem here is that you think SFIV has a tutorial mode and it doesn't. Trials (or challenges) =/= tutorials
should it have a tutorial for new players? yes.
should the game explain the system mechanics? yes.
The trials in SFIV are purely there to challenge the player and also to show you the nuances of the system and character mechanics. Or maybe "challenge you to figure out the mechanics" since the trials are much more of a puzzle than anything else.
Seems it boils down to: most fighting games do an unfortunately poor job of including even basic essential information in-game about how it works. Developers need to do a better job of including that information and teaching players about the game, ideally in a way that is actually fun....
...but even if there were suddenly amazing in-game tutorials and/or simplification of 'obtuse' mechanics/inputs, most people complaining about the current state of the genre would still not play them. This is because most of those people are lazy and don't take joy in competition and personal improvement, which is ultimately what drives someone to continue playing a fighter.
...but even if there were suddenly amazing in-game tutorials and/or simplification of 'obtuse' mechanics/inputs, most people complaining about the current state of the genre would still not play them. This is because most of those people are lazy and don't take joy in competition and personal improvement, which is ultimately what drives someone to continue playing a fighter.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Holy shit :lol My favorite post in this thread.
There's always Persona, low cast size, low amount of mechanics.
I think there's a market for games like Persona that has been largely untapped. Divekick may tap into that market some.
Soul Calibur used to tap into that market, but SC5 went hard in the opposite direction.
Admittedly there's such a thing as too much with mechanics and characters. I feel Tekken Tag 2 is a good example of it getting a bit out of hand. But there's also the exposure to international play. You might've thought the dude from the local arcade beating you at Super Street Fighter II Turbo was really really good but now the internet is full of thousands of hours of videos with the best of the best playing. You might not even have seen any but you know they're there and they are affecting your perception of what good is and how much time is put to become good.
There's really no shame in just playing with your friends at the level you yourself find fun, though. That's the beauty of multiplayer games, really.
And that's the problem with the genre: People assume trials are what teach players: They aren't. In fact, they hinder new players more than anything. Putting new players in a "sandbag" mode is the same as putting them in training but then throwing "do 6A->28(Superjump)->66(dash)ABC->236D->5D->5B->41236D->ABCD!" isn't going to do anything but "LOL WUT *smoke coming out of their ears*" new players.
Of course it doesn't help when training modes themselves are basically the same thing just without the input wanting.
No, it's the problem with Capcom.
Thanks for the hints, my man! Yeah, it's really a time issue. I work during the day and don't play games every day but half an hour to an hour might be manageable if I pick one character and stick with them. I'm gonna pick up Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition because I've not played any of the post-OG SF4 releases, give that a whirl. Not sure if there's a topic for "fighting game rookies" where people can trade beginner's tips and so forth (may make one if not, or just post in an official fighting game topic if everyone's cool with that!) but that's good advice you've given me right there.
Also gonna check out some of VesperArcade's videos since a few people have recommended them.
Some posts here have been a real eye opener because I kinda figured if I couldn't do the challenge mode stuff I'd be fucked in the actual game. That's probably my fault for treating it like a tutorial, although I guess the early challenges do tutorialise the special moves for you. The later ones where you have to chain crazy things together... maybe I overestimated their usefulness...
thesolidshark
Member
Happy to help man.
FYI, there is a newer version of SF4 coming next year (UltraSF4), with newer characters, and new properties per character. You might have to do some adjusting if you stick with the game, but hopefully nothing big. If you pick up SSF4AE this year, the DLC upgrade should be $15. If you want to wait, the whole package will be $40.
There was an old thread made for helping newcomers get started and help build strong foundations apparently. Hopefully soon someone will bump the thread or start another one for FGs in-general.
DjangoReinhardt
Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
I disagree with your initial assertion completely.
Match-ups alone make SFIV far more of a commitment than ST. That's literally just math. Now factor in the additions of forward dashes, invincible airborne back dashes, dash-canceled moves, multi-tiered focus attacks, multi-tiered super meter, ultra meter, damage scaling formulas, counter-hit frame advantage, quick rises, hard versus soft knockdowns, etc. There is way more happening in the SFIV battle system than there ever was in ST. It's not even close.
In any case, you're ultimately arguing my point. I understand the "process" - hell, I remember what it was like figuring out SFII in the arcades before there were guides and it cost money for each tiny little lesson - but it's simply no longer worth it to me since it requires too much time. So, yes, fighting games aren't the genre for me going forward unless Capcom radically simplifies SFV. That's life, though. Sometimes you grow out of things even if you don't want to.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
If Taylor hicks plays them they can't be that obtuse
The American Idol winner?
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Did anyone learn anything from this thread? OP I hope you are more willing to learn fighting games now, and aren't put off by high level play