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Are there too many law schools?

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Bitter new blog posted on ATL:
My goal is to inform potential law school students and applicants of the ugly realities of attending law school. DO NOT ATTEND UNLESS: (1) YOU GET INTO A TOP 8 LAW SCHOOL; (2) YOU GET A FULL-TUITION SCHOLARSHIP TO ATTEND; (3) YOU HAVE EMPLOYMENT AS AN ATTORNEY SECURED THROUGH A RELATIVE OR CLOSE FRIEND; OR (4) YOU ARE FULLY AWARE BEFOREHAND THAT YOUR HUGE INVESTMENT IN TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY DOES NOT, IN ANY WAY, GUARANTEE A JOB AS AN ATTORNEY OR IN THE LEGAL INDUSTRY.
http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/

I gotta say as to point 1 it's pretty interesting. That's actually something that was creeping in when I was starting law school. It's well known that "Top 14" is considered cream of the crop, and was once considered an almost guaranteed good job upon graduation. But in my observations I started to see a real distinction between schools in the top 6 and schools like northwestern, cornell, and the like. Basically even back then going to one of those schools meant you had to really watch out for your class rank, which jibes with the stories I heard about Cornell being incredibly cutthroat.

Some interesting links there too:
This blog is written by a coalition of lawyers dedicated to exposing the "law school scam." In particular, we are interested in exposing the dramatic oversupply of lawyers, and how that oversupply has been caused by bogus employment and income/salary statistics used by most law schools to induce applicants to apply to law school. Also, we are concerned with how the legal establishment is complicit in this "law school scam."
http://lawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

Guess we're starting to reach a tipping point here. Maybe. I'll believe it when apps go down.
 
AstroLad said:
Bitter new blog posted on ATL:

http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/

I gotta say as to point 1 it's pretty interesting. That's actually something that was creeping in when I was starting law school. It's well known that "Top 14" is considered cream of the crop, and was once considered an almost guaranteed good job upon graduation. But in my observations I started to see a real distinction between schools in the top 6 and schools like northwestern, cornell, and the like. Basically even back then going to one of those schools meant you had to really watch out for your class rank, which jibes with the stories I heard about Cornell being incredibly cutthroat.

Some interesting links there too:

http://lawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

Guess we're starting to reach a tipping point here. Maybe. I'll believe it when apps go down.

seriously the whole situation is so fucked up.

I don't even see where all the costs for law schools go?!

I'm hoping more people hear the advice, Tier 1 school or nothing at all.

Once those 3rd tier schools (why do they even exist?) lose so much attendance they have to close their schools hopefully we'll see a massive pullback and the ABA will stop handing out accreditations lefts and right.
 
See, lawyers are smart. They tell students to go away so the supply of fresh law graduates will go down, therefore ensuring an under-supplied lawyers in the future. Brilliant :O
 
Just glancing at that blog it's amazing how much tuition has gone up since 1980. 1,900 a semester for non residents is now 20.000+ per semester? So about 45k a year to be a lawyer? Fuck that nonsense, what are all these lawyers coming out with this kind of debt gonna do without the jobs to pay off those loans? Our country needs a serious overhaul when it comes to our for profit on everything society from education to medicine. It's a joke.
 
unomas said:
Just glancing at that blog it's amazing how much tuition has gone up since 1980. 1,900 a semester for non residents is now 20.000+ per semester? So about 45k a year to be a lawyer? Fuck that nonsense, what are all these lawyers coming out with this kind of debt gonna do without the jobs to pay off those loans? Our country needs a serious overhaul when it comes to our for profit on everything society from education to medicine. It's a joke.
For the vast majority, there is absolutely zero chance that they will ever even come close to paying them back. You're talking about people who can't get legal jobs of any sort, even ones that pay <$50k. Meanwhile many have loans in excess of $100k, while debt of even half that can still be crippling.

don't even see where all the costs for law schools go?!
. . .
Once those 3rd tier schools (why do they even exist?) lose so much attendance they have to close their schools hopefully we'll see a massive pullback and the ABA will stop handing out accreditations lefts and right.
Funny you should mention both of these! As one of the articles said, law schools are pure profit centers for universities. Much more so than most any other graduate programs because they are relatively cheap to run yet people will willingly fork over $35k+ to attend. That's it. There's not even the illusion of most of your tuition dollars being fed back into improving the school at most places.

As to your second point, the ABA did used to limit accreditation based on, in part, consideration of market factors. But then they were sued by the DOJ b/c private law schools were bitching.

These are addressed in the OP, but probably merit mentioning again since they're so mind-bogglingly stupid, and in this market are nothing shy of pure farce.
 
It always amazes me how many non-law people think that all lawyers are pulling down 150k+ per year. When I tell them that a new lawyer would be lucky to make 1/3 that, their jaws always hit the floor. I bet 85% of new law students don't' realize what kind of job/salary prospects they are going to face.

My gf has a friend who is graduating from georgetown law, an "elite t14 school", and this friend can't find a job to save her life and said a lot of her friends can't find work either.
 
If it weren't for my wife miraculously finding a good job at the same time I found a job, there's no way I could afford my student loan payment right now.

The cost of law school seems to be what is most out of control. The job situation is what it is; the market will constantly fluctuate, and a lot of law grads will eventually work in non-law jobs. All this wouldn't be so bad if people weren't racking up 150-200K in student loans while doing it.
 
lawblob said:
If it weren't for my wife miraculously finding a good job at the same time I found a job, there's no way I could afford my student loan payment right now.

The cost of law school seems to be what is most out of control. The job situation is what it is; the market will constantly fluctuate, and a lot of law grads will eventually work in non-law jobs. All this wouldn't be so bad if people weren't racking up 150-200K in student loans while doing it.

seriously if law school was like any other degree and priced the same it would be so bad but unlike med school where if you get in and do well you will actually find a job the legal system is in such shambles.
 
(I only read the OP)

My sister-in-law graduated six years ago or so. She makes a few hundred grand per year in the USA, she is about to become a partner at her firm, and she works so many hours that she is always stressed out and drinks a bit more than necessary (and the same goes for her colleagues, she says).

Combined with OP's info and what I've heard first hand (which I do not intend to be any sort of sweeping statement for all more successful lawyers), I think I would rather work at a gas station than pursue that career. Lucky for her, she is an immensely talented talented baker and a fluent speaker of french. She dreams of moving down near the Mediterranean and opening a shop. I hope she's saving up so she can do it when her daughter grows up and gets through college in about ten years.
 
Bumping for this article my friend sent me. It's like all the stuff I've been saying for years in this thread got about a hundred times worse.

Bar Raised for Law-Grad Jobs
Employment prospects dim as firms retrench, derailing career paths for many.


Fabian Ronisky thought he was on track last summer to become a high-powered corporate lawyer. He was an intern at a leading firm in Los Angeles, earning about $3,000 weekly. But the firm didn't offer him a permanent job.

So Mr. Ronisky, a 25-year-old student at Chicago's Northwestern University School of Law, spent the fall sending 50 resumes to law firms and government agencies, to no avail. Now, just days shy of graduation and with $150,000 of student loans, he plans to move back to his parents' home in San Diego and sell music and movies online.
. . . .
Mr. Ronisky is one of about 40,000 law-school students who will graduate this spring and enter one of the worst job markets for attorneys in decades. This year's classes have it particularly bad, according to lawyers and industry experts. Though hiring was down last year as well, they said 2009 graduates applied for jobs before law firms had felt the full brunt of the downturn.
. . . .
Law firms of all sizes have suffered as clients have curbed work on real-estate acquisitions, mergers, public offerings and other staples of corporate practice. They have had to fire lawyers, reduce hiring and defer the start dates of the law graduates who did receive job offers.
. . . .
It is too early to get a comprehensive view of the employment rate for the 2010 class, but there are plenty of troubling indicators.

Law firms had an average of 16 summer internship positions to offer this year, about half the number of the previous year, according to a March report by the National Association for Law Placement Inc.
. . . .
"I've been at this for 23 years, and this is the worst job market I've ever seen," said Karen Klouda, head of career services at the University of Iowa College of Law.

Those considering law school might want to reconsider, said Allan Tanenbaum, chairman of an American Bar Association commission studying the impact of the economic crisis on the profession. Students take on average law-school debt of about $100,000 and, given the job market, many "have no foreseeable way to pay that back," he said.

Thomas Reddy, a second-year student at Brooklyn Law School, hasn't landed a summer internship yet after sending resumes to more than 50 law firms. He is taking on about $70,000 of debt each year of the three-year program to earn his degree, but said he may be fortunate to make $80,000 a year in a lawyer job after graduating. "That is less than what I was making before I went to law school," he said.
http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/109478/bar-raised-for-law-grad-jobs?mod=career-work
 
AstroLad said:
Bumping for this article my friend sent me. It's like all the stuff I've been saying for years in this thread got about a hundred times worse.

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/109478/bar-raised-for-law-grad-jobs?mod=career-work
I'm so thankful right now that I decided to forgo law school. So many clueless people that I've met who keep telling me that they'll just be happy if they can "get into ANY law school". They don't realize that what's killing the law field are the dozens and dozens of law schools that have no standards for admission.
 
Sucks to be you guys.

I've got a sweet gig already lined up at my father's successful firm :D Nepotism is the way to go, really.
 
AstroLad said:
what guys?
Those blokes with no jobs. I guess it's probably true they probably aren't exactly reading the random thread on GAF. There's a pretty similar ongoing thread on SA saying how disastrous it is to go to Law School right now if you don't have a job lined up, but that one had a lot of people complaining about their lack of jobs.

I really can't stress enough how important it is to make sure your close family members want to bring you into their growing business before you decide to drop 120 thousand dollars into a degree.
 
i like to think i have saved a few lives. actually i think a few people were influenced in their decisions. it's pretty much always been a PSA even before it got all trendy for sites to write about the state of the legal market (not that it's a bad thing that it's getting more coverage)
 
AstroLad said:
i like to think i have saved a few lives. actually i think a few people were influenced in their decisions. it's pretty much always been a PSA even before it got all trendy for sites to write about the state of the legal market (not that it's a bad thing that it's getting more coverage)
And yet, the number of applications and graduates keeps going up, and they're opening new schools!!!!
 
AstroLad said:
i like to think i have saved a few lives. actually i think a few people were influenced in their decisions
The thing that really surprised me personally is the shocking lack of aptitude for the law among students and recent graduates. We take a lot of students and recent grads to do odd appearances and get briefs/discovery in and most of them have no skill at it, i.e. they are probably worse attorneys than our secretary (I'm serious about that.)

Not only that, but I'm not even sure some people in Law School realize what the job entails; there really seems to be a lot of people that actually get those coveted BigLaw jobs that really seem to hate them.

Zyzyxxz said:
seriously the whole situation is so fucked up.

I don't even see where all the costs for law schools go?!

I'm hoping more people hear the advice, Tier 1 school or nothing at all.

Once those 3rd tier schools (why do they even exist?) lose so much attendance they have to close their schools hopefully we'll see a massive pullback and the ABA will stop handing out accreditations lefts and right.
:lol Right. :lol
 
SoulPlaya said:
And yet, the number of applications and graduates keeps going up, and they're opening new schools!!!!
:lol i know . . . not much that can be done about that. and the schools are pushing law school harder than ever. increasing tuition, increasing class sizes. the thing is such a cash cow and there is often so little value given back it's bordering on criminal. years back i used to do some pro bono cases involving shady diploma mills who would get people to get govt loans and just bilk them out of $50k+ for absolutely nothing but now we're getting to the point where i can't say law schools are much different
 
All I hear the engineering professors at my school complain about all day is dropping enrollment numbers and these kids are practically guaranteed 60-80k jobs after just a BS! I can't understand why one would go to law school and incur so much debt, especially when law school sounds much harder than undergraduate education...
 
BananaBomb said:
All I hear the engineering professors at my school complain about all day is dropping enrollment numbers and these kids are practically guaranteed 60-80k jobs after just a BS! I can't understand why one would go to law school and incur so much debt, especially when law school sounds much harder than undergraduate education...
A lot of people have the wrong assumption about what Attorneys do.
 
BananaBomb said:
All I hear the engineering professors at my school complain about all day is dropping enrollment numbers and these kids are practically guaranteed 60-80k jobs after just a BS! I can't understand why one would go to law school and incur so much debt, especially when law school sounds much harder than undergraduate education...
Ignorance, really. Everyone that I talk to seems to honestly believe that it's a gateway to respect and 160K a year. Of course, there is also the biggest myth ever, "you can do so much with a JD!" Honestly, if you're not planning on becoming a lawyer, don't get a JD! There's also the inherent fear of math and science that plenty of people (especially in my generation) have. I used to be the same way until I actually started reading science, and I realized how much more interesting it is (to me) than much of what I learned in my other classes. Now, I'm a PoliSci major (with a minor in Psychology), but I've decided to take the prerequisites for medical school (already taken Physics), and I'm enjoying the classes so far. They give me a real sense of accomplishment, and while this new plan of mine will cause me to graduate med school at 28 instead of 25 at law school, I don't spend so many nights worried to death about how I'm going to get a job once I get out of law school. Now, I just worry about how I'm going to get into med school, because unlike law schools, there are no easy US med schools to get into.

Unfortunately, there's something people that I know hear all the time, but don't take too seriously. "Unless you truly love law and want to be a lawyer, then don't go to law school." That used to just be something counselors had to tell you, but now it's a cold, hard fact.
 
BananaBomb said:
All I hear the engineering professors at my school complain about all day is dropping enrollment numbers and these kids are practically guaranteed 60-80k jobs after just a BS! I can't understand why one would go to law school and incur so much debt, especially when law school sounds much harder than undergraduate education...


Ally McBeal.

flockhart.jpg


ally1.jpg


do they make shows about engineers!!? NO!?!?? ok then.....
 
NetMapel said:
See, lawyers are scum. They tell students to go away so the supply of fresh law graduates will go down, therefore ensuring an under-supplied lawyers in the future. Brilliant :O

Yeah it's a brilliant strategy
 
Law school seems to only be a sensible option if you can get into one of the Top Tier schools.

This is unlike my area, science, where it isn't so important where you went to school, but what you actually publish as a scientist that makes your career.

Yes, I mean this as a dig at the school snobbery with law degrees.

I have an Ivy League Ph.D but in science that doesn't actually benefit you much
 
Thought I'd bump this thread since my friend sent me a good new article on this topic:
During the recession, the logic was ubiquitous: The economy is terrible—better to wait it out! It is a three-year fast track to a remunerative, respectable career! It's not just learning a subject—it's learning how to think! Law school, always the safe choice, became a more popular choice. Between 2007 and 2009, the number of LSAT takers climbed 20.5 percent. Law school applications increased in turn.

But now a number of recent or current law students are saying—or screaming—that they made a mistake. They went to law school, they say, and now they're underemployed or jobless, in debt, and three years older. And statistics show that the evidence is more than anecdotal.
. . . .
The big firms that make up about 28 percent of recent grads' employment slashed their associate programs in 2009 and 2010, rescinding offers to thousands and deferring the start dates of thousands more. Worse, the profession as a whole shrunk: The number of people employed in legal services hit an all-time high of 1.196 million in June 2007. It currently stands at 1.103 million. That means the number of law jobs has dwindled by about 7.8 percent. In comparison, the total number of jobs has fallen about 5.4 percent over the same period.

At the same time, the law schools—the supply side of the equation—have not stopped growing. Law schools awarded 43,588 J.D.s last year, up 11.5 percent since 2000, though there was technically negative demand for lawyers. And the American Bar Association's list of approved law schools now numbers 200, an increase of 9 percent in the last decade. Those newer law schools have a much shakier track record of helping new lawyers get work, but they don't necessarily cost less than their older, more established counterparts.
. . . .
Another point is that prospective law students usually look at average pay at graduation. But the average hides substantial inequality: There are the jobs at white-shoe firms that pay about $160,000 per year to recent graduates, and then there are the rest of jobs, which generally pay between $45,000 and $60,000. Almost no salaries are near the median or the average. They are clustered at the bottom, with fewer high earners, many of whom come from a handful of super-elite law schools, up at the top. That means that most students do not meet the break-even salary—the starting salary that would make law school tuition a good investment, estimated at around $65,000.

Students simply "cannot earn enough income after graduation to support the debt they incur," wrote Richard Matasar, the dean of New York Law School, in 2005. "Even those making the highest salaries find that the debt that they have accumulated while in school may tax them for years."
. . . .
So does that just mean a continued oversupply of lawyers, dragging down their own median salaries and dealing with their heavy debt burdens while a few lucky associates make it to the corporate big leagues? Not necessarily.

David McGowan of University of San Diego and Bernard Burk of the Center for Corporate Governance at Stanford argue that trend cannot continue. Prospective students will recognize that law school can be a bad deal, and one way or another is not a sure thing. Applications will slowly drop off. The marquee law schools will be fine. But some of the newer, lower-ranked law schools will end up shutting down—meaning fewer lawyers, and the vindication, if not the employment, of all of those scam-blog authors.
http://www.slate.com/id/2272621/pagenum/2
 
Bumping to give a shout out to the participants in this thread. This thread probably single handedly saved me from going to a third tier school with the delusion that I could get to a firm job and have tuition paid for. I scrapped those plans, and just a few days ago was accepted into a t14 school!

It's quite funny though, I generally don't share with my wife's work associates where I have applied to school (just to make sure there's no job fallout for her), and pretty much every time I mention applying to law school, I have to hear a spill about how great the local third tier school is. Even had a dinner last night where someone told me they basically could have gotten into any school they wanted to, but chose a fourth tier school for scholarships... riiiiiight.

Keep fighting the good fight gentleman and saving unknowing innocents like myself!
 
Byakuya769 said:
Bumping to give a shout out to the participants in this thread. This thread probably single handedly saved me from going to a third tier school with the delusion that I could get to a firm job and have tuition paid for. I scrapped those plans, and just a few days ago was accepted into a t14 school!

It's quite funny though, I generally don't share with my wife's work associates where I have applied to school (just to make sure there's no job fallout for her), and pretty much every time I mention applying to law school, I have to hear a spill about how great the local third tier school is. Even had a dinner last night where someone told me they basically could have gotten into any school they wanted to, but chose a fourth tier school for scholarships... riiiiiight.

Keep fighting the good fight gentleman and saving unknowing innocents like myself!
Nice, hope it works out for you. It is frightening the amount of misinformation out there. Just stuff like here's X partner from some well-respected local firm and he went to Y local school therefore it must be the way to go! Even though that doesn't take into account the fact that X partner came out of school when there was about 10% the amount of competition, etc. etc. etc. Thankfully there's more and more information online exposing this.
 
Byakuya769 said:
Bumping to give a shout out to the participants in this thread. This thread probably single handedly saved me from going to a third tier school with the delusion that I could get to a firm job and have tuition paid for. I scrapped those plans, and just a few days ago was accepted into a t14 school!

It's quite funny though, I generally don't share with my wife's work associates where I have applied to school (just to make sure there's no job fallout for her), and pretty much every time I mention applying to law school, I have to hear a spill about how great the local third tier school is. Even had a dinner last night where someone told me they basically could have gotten into any school they wanted to, but chose a fourth tier school for scholarships... riiiiiight.

Keep fighting the good fight gentleman and saving unknowing innocents like myself!
congrats bro, hoping to go t14 as well, we'll see how my cycle goes

Also, everything Astro posts continues to scare the shit out of me
 
peterb0y said:
congrats bro, hoping to go t14 as well, we'll see how my cycle goes

Also, everything Astro posts continues to scare the shit out of me

Thanks! Your lsat score was great starting place, so just take extreme care with your applications, apply widely, and ensure that your personal statement has a story and a voice. Also get your applications in as early as you can, and you'll do great, I bet. (probably time to stay away from the nervous wrecks at the law school forums too!)
 
Very interesting (7 pages) article in The New York Times about Law Schools and the shenanigans they get up to in order to lure in naive students:

"Is Law School a Losing Game?"

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1

Solving the J.D. overabundance problem, according to Professor Henderson, will have to involve one very drastic measure: a bunch of lower-tier law schools will need to close.
But nobody inside of the legal establishment, he predicts, has the stomach for that.
“Ultimately,” he says, “some public authority will have to step in because law schools and lawyers are incapable of policing themselves.”
 
I have his niggling suspicion that the next big cause of market turmoil is when people with massive student loans start defaulting. At first it seemed like the problem was from those for-profit colleges, unaccredited diploma mills. But regular college tuition is skyrocketing, and then there's this issue with law schools. You have all sorts of young people, liberal arts majors, unemployed lawyers, people with online degrees with no jobs racking up massive loans, with no way of earning money from their investment. Furthermore, a lot of these students just take out MORE loans. If there's not a major overhaul, it could get ugly.
 
DrMungo said:
I have his niggling suspicion that the next big cause of market turmoil is when people with massive student loans start defaulting. At first it seemed like the problem was from those for-profit colleges, unaccredited diploma mills. But regular college tuition is skyrocketing, and then there's this issue with law schools. You have all sorts of young people, liberal arts majors, unemployed lawyers, people with online degrees with no jobs racking up massive loans, with no way of earning money from their investment. Furthermore, a lot of these students just take out MORE loans. If there's not a major overhaul, it could get ugly.

For-profit schools were the sign that things were getting out of hand, but I do agree that it has a good chance to be the next bubble to burst.
 
Guevara said:
It's amazing how, just like clockwork, there's a big negative article about law school every 3 months.
It needs to be every week. Although I did get the job I wanted going into law school, lots and lots of students have pipe dreams.

Pretty crazy how some law schools subsidize other schools in universities. Such an amazing cash cow.
 
DrMungo said:
I have his niggling suspicion that the next big cause of market turmoil is when people with massive student loans start defaulting. At first it seemed like the problem was from those for-profit colleges, unaccredited diploma mills. But regular college tuition is skyrocketing, and then there's this issue with law schools. You have all sorts of young people, liberal arts majors, unemployed lawyers, people with online degrees with no jobs racking up massive loans, with no way of earning money from their investment. Furthermore, a lot of these students just take out MORE loans. If there's not a major overhaul, it could get ugly.

Their is too much demand for college, which is almost entirely the result of the amount of 1st and 2nd degree government subsidies. 1st being unlimited direct government loans and the 2nd being government housing subsidies.

If you took away the infinite loans and ration them on purely on standardized test score, then that would control costs and supply of students much better.

-It would have to be based on a standardized test because that is the only way to avoid high schools racing each other for grade inflation.

--To bad our collegial system would then almost entirely be filled with Asians.
 
So with all these insane debts that people are racking up, how does the repaying work? Here in Australia you don't start paying back education fees until you are earning over a certain threshold per year. Once you are they just take out a proportion of your salary each year and put it towards your fees.
 
I'm regretting gonig to law school as my current job situation is the suck. Yeah, I realize I should be grateful for having a job. I try to be, but the pathetic pay (less than 25k working full-time) combined with a very poor working environment have me close to my breaking point. Of course, I'm not sure what else I would do. I guess I could try to get another lab job (have a B.S. in Biochem) but that sucked, too.

Sigh.
 
A couple of months ago I would have said law school was a total mistake. Now, two and a half years post graduation, I landed the job I've wanted since deciding to go, so it's easy for me to say it was worth it. I only got the job because of extremely lucky circumstances and connections. It really is a completely shit market for law grads (especially second tier kids like me and below). My only advice for recent grads would be to hang a shingle while you're doing unrelated work and grab a few clients (much better for all those empty spots on the resume) and keep looking and applying. For applicants - just note the quote in the NYtimes article about "exceptionalism." Everyone in your class is thinking the same thing as you so be careful.
 
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