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[Cyan]

Not trying to start something,

Sampling bias.

but looking at metrics such as (admittedly outdated) HDI numbers and life expectancy rates,

Sampling bias.

it doesn't seem like North Korea is that bad compared to many of the world's developing countries.

Sampling bias.

Obviously South Korea is more advanced,

Sampling bias.

but North Korea's HDI in the last reported figures (1995... so yeah) was .766, which in 2013's ranking would put it at 66th in the world, above the likes of Brazil and Turkey.

Sampling bias.

In terms of life expectancy as of 2011 it's 123rd of 198 at 69 years from birth, which again although not great isn't too shabby.

Sampling bias.

I guess we have to question the validity and reliability of the metrics and the data pretty strongly in this case. That said, the media seems to perpetuate the idea that North Korea is practically hell on earth,

Sampling bias.

but is that really true? (well I guess if you get sent to one of the camps it is, but anyway...)

Sampl--actually this is correct.

 

[hym]

They have concentration camps.

So yes. Worse than everyone thinks.

The government is a fucking atrocity.

Try read this if you can stomach it.


Wut? They have concentration camps. Sampling bias my ass.

Does it have babies being murdered?

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Having looked up about that funfair I think it looks awesome

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/north-korea-fun-fair-mangyongdae-hoban-death

Oh shit sampling bias

 

[Iph]

I'm going to say yes. It's probably worse than most people living in First World countries can imagine. Plus the propaganda/personality cult adds a whole new level of disregard for human life in order to forward the Kim Jong "dynasty". They're living off of the slavery, starvation and abuse of a huge chunk of the population in work camps.

 

[Instigator]

I'm sorry our pagodas look like every other Asian pagoda to you. Because all eastern Asian countries are generic, right? Almost like we all look the same?

Did I hit a raw nerve?

 

[Enco]

Does it have babies being murdered?

Yes it does.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

I imagine things could be a lot better, given how much of the population is either starving to death, or having to rely on highly-illegal smuggling rings for basic amenities.

 

[hym]

Yes it does.

The eagerness to believe our enemies are inhuman monsters is great, this has been going on for over half a century, and all we have as evidence are a handful of photographs of skinny kids of the early 90s at a height of a sanction conflict.

 

[richiek]

All that needs to be said.

 

[Meier]

Pyongyang has a nicer public pool than my town.

I don't believe for a second that that's a "public pool." If I had to guess, those people are paid to be in that photo or they are family members of military officials. They will do anything and everything to make the country look more bearable to live in.

 

[BertramCooper]

Wow, this thread is...something else.

 

[hym]

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2011/12/19/north_korea_s_economic_failure/1324311814900.jpg.CROP.rectangle3-large.jpg

All that needs to be said.

And also look at the Top Left corner, that's China, horrible horrible China, where your phone is made.

 

[Protein]

Watch 'a VICE Guide to North Korea' on YouTube.

 

[Enco]

The eagerness to believe our enemies are inhuman monsters is great, this has been going on for over half a century, and all we have as evidence are a handful of photographs of skinny kids of the early 90s at a height of a sanction conflict.

Please...

In his account Mr. Shin claimed to have been a helpless innocent witness to the execution of his mother and brother when Mr. Shin was only 14. He had indeed been helpless, and he had the torture marks to prove it.

“Children in the camps scavenged constantly for food, eating rats, insects and undigested kernels of corn they found in cow dung.”

A few tame quotes from the link I posted.

Fuck sampling bias.

This is true. There are concentration camps and it CAN'T be denied. Do you feel that concentration camps are no big issue or are you denying their existence?

 

[Kinyou]

When the DPRK finally crumbles and the U.S. and ROK fully unearth all of the atrocities committed by the Kims, we are going to hate ourselves.

Aren't there also accusations that the west knew about the KZs? I think the harsh truth is simply that atrocities like this aren't considered to be 'worth' a war

 

[Violet_0]

Having looked up about that funfair I think it looks awesome

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/north-korea-fun-fair-mangyongdae-hoban-death

Oh shit sampling bias

what
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZAp7gWWANI
let me guess, 100% employment rate?

 

[Talon]

Did I hit a raw nerve?

Meh. It's a country that spent 2000 years as a colony or at least a vassal of China and then spent 1905-1945 under Japanese rule, with stolen or destroyed historical records and artifacts, forced Japanese assimilation for the final 15 years, and cultural suppression. Then the country was split into half, when the historical seat of power has been in the North.

Maybe that's why we look so generic to you?

 

[Porcile]

All that needs to be said.

To be fair. A lot of North Korea is fairly inhospitable, mountainous and rugged terrain.

 

[BertramCooper]

Just because one North Korean concentration camp has children eating rats doesn't mean all North Korean concentration camps have children eating rats.

Jeez, guys...

 

[Instigator]

Aren't there also accusations that the west knew about the KZs? I think the harsh truth is simply that atrocities like this aren't considered to be 'worth' a war

And they shouldn't be.

This isn't Lybia. North Korea is a high-stake game, you risk creating a greater human tragedy than the one you want to prevent.

 

[Hermii]

Yea its pretty fucking bad. Libya during Quadaffi was a paradise in comparrison. Iran is much better. It cant be overstated how bad it is.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Meh. It's a country that spent 2000 years as a colony or at least a vassal of China and then spent 1905-1945 under Japanese rule, with stolen or destroyed historical records and artifacts, forced Japanese assimilation for the final 15 years, and cultural suppression. Then the country was split into half, when the historical seat of power has been in the North.

Maybe that's why we look so generic to you?

And when Japan had our Empress whacked in 1895.

 

[Instigator]

Meh. It's a country that spent 2000 years as a colony or at least a vassal of China and then spent 1905-1945 under Japanese rule, with stolen or destroyed historical records and artifacts, forced Japanese assimilation for the final 15 years, and cultural suppression. Then the country was split into half, when the historical seat of power has been in the North.

Maybe that's why we look so generic to you?

I think I did.

All that because I made a comment about how your government chooses to portray your country to foreigners.

 

[CHusson91]

Did I hit a raw nerve?

What did you expect? Calling someone's country "generic" and "soulless" isn't exactly classy.

 

[Talon]

And when Japan had our Empress whacked in 1895.

Well, she probably would've been whacked by someone inside the way history goes in that country.

"Marginally competent ruler for more than 5 years? It's time for a coup!"

I think I did.

All that because I made a comment about how your government chooses to portray your country to foreigners.

"Generic soulless country"

It's a good thing ChiTown and I are friendly model minorities.

 

[Guileless]

I wonder if they have to watch out of market baseball games on the Extra Innings package in crappy SD on Comcast even though we pay the same amount for the package as DirecTV customers getting all games in HD. I do.

 

[BocoDragon]

And when Japan had our Empress whacked in 1895.

A Korean girl was telling me how stupid it was that Canada still had a queen, when Korea had a president.

I told her that's because Japan killed your queen. It went over well.

 

[hym]

Honest question, is there anyone that would prefer to have been born to a random family in Liberia (or another African country with constant civil wars and poverty) instead of North Korea?

 

[dubq]

Sorry folks, I actually saw it on Youtube, not CNN. A Michael Moore documentary? Fuck no, that's probably the most biased shit around next to Fox News.

How about you fucking move there, then, and let us know - ok?

 

[Vilix]

To be fair. A lot of North Korea is fairly inhospitable, mountainous and rugged terrain.

This is Greece at night

At it's one of the most mountainous countries.

 

[Instigator]

This is Greece at night

At it's one of the most mountainous countries.

Could be those man-made forest fires Greece is notorious for.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

but what about the blue bricks???

 

[Angelus Errare]

How so? Surely if your quality of life is that bad, you don't live long.

Many slaves were known to outlive their masters...I don't think any of them would say they had a great quality of life.

 

[dubq]

Even the "Great Leader's" grandson, Kim Han-sol (Kim Jong-un's nephew), has spoken out about how terrible his family's rule has been for the people of NK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_uSuCkKa3k

(It starts in Finnish but the actual interview is in English and begins at 1:35. Part 2/2 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSfVOf4OACs... )

 

[Wellscha]

Drew from Giant Bomb actually went to North Korea. He talked about his trip in this video.

 

[Porcile]

This is Greece at night

At it's one of the most mountainous countries.

Yep. But North Korea's expansion, following the Korean War was mainly based on the industrialisation of it's own resources - of which it does not have much of.

 

[CornBurrito]

Living long doesn't reflect the quality of life.

Though life expectancy actually went down after agriculture became the main souse of food for humans, until very recently in our history. If their main source of food is from agricultural sources, they must be eating more than we believe in order to live until 60+.

 

[Goro Majima]

I don't think a generic soulless country could design stylish Samsung displays or the awesome Hyundai Genesis coupe.

Ironically, North Korea fits that stereotype far better.

Considering that Korea hasn't drowned at some point between China and Japan, their existence is a miracle. Culturally, I'd say they are faring better at keeping their identity better than the English for instance (the Scottish "brand" seems more pervasive than anything uniquely English).

 

[Hermii]

I sometimes see advertizing From the South Korean Tourism Bureau on TV, but South Korea looks like such a generic, soulless Asian country.

Have you ever been to an asian country ? I been to a few and none of them are generic and soulless, whatever that means.

Some pics of South Korea:

 

[Instigator]

Have you ever been to an asian country ? I been to a few and none of them are generic and soulless, whatever that means.

Some pics of South Korea:

Japan, HK and the Phillipines.

 

[dubq]

I sometimes see advertizing From the South Korean Tourism Bureau on TV, but South Korea looks like such a generic, soulless Asian country.

Way to live up to your name.

 

[Porcile]

I don't think a generic soulless country could design stylish Samsung displays or the awesome Hyundai Genesis coupe.

Ironically, North Korea fits that stereotype far better.

Considering that Korea hasn't drowned at some point between China and Japan, their existence is a miracle. Culturally, I'd say they are faring better at keeping their identity better than the English for instance (the Scottish "brand" seems more pervasive than anything uniquely English).

I don't think this is true at all. Most traditional Korean culture in the North has been almost entirely suppressed.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I lived in S.korea for 4 years and it was anything but soulless...unless you count Seoul! huh huh?! (there is a slight pronouncination difference between soul and Seoul, but I digress).

/shrug

 

[Hermii]

Though life expectancy actually went down after agriculture became the main souse of food for humans, until very recently in our history. If their main source of food is from agricultural sources, they must be eating more than we believe in order to live until 60+.

I dont think there is any real way of getting reliable statistics out of Nort Korea, so I dont really trust these statistics.

 

[Goro Majima]

I don't think this true at all. Most traditional Korean culture in the North has almost entirely suppressed.

I guess I should have clarified that I was speaking exclusively about South Korea, North Korea is obviously soulless and sterile.

 

[CornBurrito]

I dont think there is any real way of getting reliable statistics out of Nort Korea, so I dont really trust these statistics.

Oh I don't either. But if the statistics were true, such a high number would suggest that famine isn't a big problem. I figured other people would cover the whole "those stats are likely fake" thing, and I was right

 

[IAmtheFMan]

SMH at so much in this thread.

Chitown and Talon are basically saying everything that I want to say.

Drew from Giant Bomb actually went to North Korea. He talked about his trip in this video.

I can't watch the video since I'm at work right now, but the best Westerners can witness of NK is the Truman-Show-esque choreographed ride of exactly what they want you to see. No Westerner has actually ever seen North Korea.

 

[Porcile]

I guess I should have clarified that I was speaking exclusively about South Korea, North Korea is obviously soulless and sterile.

Well, personally I find the culture of North Korea fairly interesting in certain regards.

 

[hym]

SMH at so much in this thread.

Chitown and Talon are basically saying everything that I want to say.

I can't watch the video since I'm at work right now, but the best Westerners can witness of NK is the Truman-Show-esque choreographed ride of exactly what they want you to see. No Westerner has actually ever seen North Korea.

Isn't it disingenuous to assume you therefor know what's behind the scenes?

All I can tell from this is and other documentaries is that the Regime in North Korea cares an unhealthy amount about keeping up appearances, that's a remnant of Soviet control perhaps. But unless I can actually see behind the curtain my speculations are as good as his.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Honest question, is there anyone that would prefer to have been born to a random family in Liberia (or another African country with constant civil wars and poverty) instead of North Korea?

Liberia over concentration camps any day of the week.