GetemMa
Member
LOL (Sigh)
So what were they clamoring for? Big AAA shit that the system couldn't come close to supporting?
Please enlighten me to all these games that should have been on the Wii.
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Are third parties actively trying to fight Nintendo?
- Thread starter Metallix87
- Start date
LOL (Sigh)
So what were they clamoring for? Big AAA shit that the system couldn't come close to supporting?
Please enlighten me to all these games that should have been on the Wii.
Metallix87
Member
Nothing *should* have been on Wii, but there was definitely a lot of squandered potential there, given the larger user base, and the solid sales of titles like Epic Mickey, Resident Evil 4, etc.
Heck, for all the sales Nintendo's titles got, most third parties avoided trying to make their own platformers on the system, instead opting for odd party games or thrown-together budget trash.
Yeah, like all those indie devs who have been complaining about how incredibly hard Nintendo is to deal with.
#rolleyes
Well now we are moving goal posts. A well made game released at the same time sold well, despite having zero presence and marketing on the Wii.
Which is why Sega stopped publishing games on ps360 after vanquish bombed.
Paracelsus
Member
Too easy to word it like that. They stopped publishing hardcore games (unless you count Sonic) period. Bayonetta is being paid by Uncle Ninty, else they sh**canned the franchise.
metalslimer
Member
This is a pretty ridiculous request. Mario, Sonic, Kirby are all big or at least somewhat big name franchises that have been around for over 2 decades. 3rd parties don't invest in platformers because even when they do (Rayman Origins) it is not going to be huge seller and Rayman is relatively well known (and also came out on the Wii). You could make a post about all the neglected things in the industry right now. Nintendo set the tone with Wii Sports and 3rd parties saw cheap easy money and went after it, easy as that,
Nintendo likes to release weak hardware and guess what? Many developers like to develop their games on stronger hardware with as few limitations as possible. It's a narrow balancing act between business decisions of their publishers to make money and their own decisions to make games on strong hardware, because many developers want to work with top-notch hardware. Just like many engineers in other businesses, it's just human.
You spent many years in engineering education, have high expectations for your future projects, of course you want to do top notch stuff. It's no surprise many developers avoid Nintendo hardware.
That's no conspiracy, those are decisions made by engineers, not only business dudes.
You spent many years in engineering education, have high expectations for your future projects, of course you want to do top notch stuff. It's no surprise many developers avoid Nintendo hardware.
That's no conspiracy, those are decisions made by engineers, not only business dudes.
Metallix87
Member
Rayman Origins came out at a bad time, with little-to-no advertisement.
That being said, I suppose one could say it's pointless to keep making new FPS IPs, since Halo and Call of Duty are going into their third generation now of dominance. Of course, that isn't stopping third parties from trying.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Man, what a lame excuse.
Their only bias is towards the platform holders they think they can make money on.
Xv Elite vX
Banned
You know what I find odd? The third parties like Capcom, Konami, EA, Namco, Tecmo, Square, etc. do not utilize the Nintedo model as they should. If these were my companies, I would create games for Wii U with the classic idea of Nintendo success. For instance why does Capcom not make an incredible 2D/HD MegaMan for Wii U? How come Konami is not making awsome adventure games for Wii U? Both of these companies know how to appease the Nintendo audience. Instead they back off of certain games because the Wii U hardware is different. Why not go with the flow and create games just for the Wii U? There should be a grand amount of good RPG's, Space Shooters, 3rd Person Adventures, Platformers, Etc. like the days of old. It is not that difficult to understand what the Wii U needs.
Yea, there's no doubt wasted potential on the Wii. It took 3 years for Just Dance to hit the platform, no? I wonder how many lost units were there. 20M? 30M? Who knows, the Wii wave was riding real high early on. Probably would've left the generation up there with Call of Duty as the biggest gaming success stories. Lots of similar casual games-focused could've hit the platform with great success early on. Most titles waited too long.
Well, I don't think it's as black and white as profit. It's probably similar to any consumer that TRIES to not be irrationally biased: they go with whoever provides them the best service, the best value, offers what they want, etc. Bethesda for example had little reason to bother with the Wii because it didn't have the power to make the games they wanted (well, the RPGs that is, I know there was some shovelware stuff there), and similarly likely applied to many developers nevermind many core gamers snubbed it off due to the visuals and motion controls. And while Nintendo's been great with Japanese third parties they don't seem to have had the same track record with Western ones, or even if they were being great to work with what they had to offer simply wasn't appealing. And it does seem to me here that most publishers and many developers want to make high end experiences, thus they don't bother with handhelds, and those that do seem to generally specialize in localizing Japanese games or are indie developers that have to fight to get a publisher (though now many are just going straight to eShop, like Wayforward.)
As for the 3DS/Vita situation specifically: I think it's more even than the OP assumed, but at the same time Sony did help many smaller publishers/developers find their footing, so they may have a very real reason to be biased: Sony supported them getting their games out, Nintendo meanwhile didn't care as much. Maybe more now, but even then you see them courting the likes of Capcom and Square Enix, similarly to Microsoft with the likes of EA or Bethesda. As for actual western development beyond indie stuff on Vita: it seems to follow a similar pattern to what I said about the HD consoles: Vita provides the power, 3DS doesn't. Not to mention Vita can potentially be a very nice place to throw your mobile games that people want physical controls for, I think SE finally caught on albeit via PlayStation Mobile support.
metalslimer
Member
Yeah almost as bad as thinking billion dollar businesses hold grudges. I am explaining why thinking that 3rd parties were suddenly going to start investing money in genres that was an unsure thing wasn't going to happen. Platformers at retail were a rarity where publishers actually thought they could make money. I wish there was more of a variety in the investment of big publishers but hey that's this industry.
You could say that but there have been successful new shooter IPs in the last decade while the platformer IPs still going strong are decades old. Now of course this isn't to say there couldn't be a larger market especially for kids, but come on we're getting far away from the topic of 3rd parties fighting with Nintendo and now talking about why 3rd parties are hesitant to invest in different things
Metallix87
Member
Alright, let's examine this further: Nippon Ichi struggled for years with their non-Disgaea releases, yet they could've easily ported those releases to Wii as another revenue source, especially in the West where PSP was mainly a piracy device and nothing more. Why did they actively avoid the Wii as a solution to their problems?
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
Nintendo is an incompetent company. No need to blame that on 3rd parties.
metalslimer
Member
So do you think Shin'en hates Sony and MS? Do you think niche shooter developers for the 360 in Japan hate Sony? Why are you even mentioning them when you mentioned games from Capcom, Square, and Koei, and L5? You're trying to shift the topic now because your whole (bad) point in the OP was about localization and Nippon Ichi hasn't made a single game for the 3DS
3rd parties that target mostly 15-30 years old male gamers have no interest to put their games on Nintendo systems who have had the kid's toy stigma for years now. Put it simply, 3rd parties "outgrew" Nintendo. They don't want that demographic to fleed to a Nintendo system nor do they want to compete with more family-friendly or games for a broader demographic that would steal shelf-space.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
-Because the MegaMan fanbase is smaller than it likes to believe, so Capcom doesn't consider it a worthwhile effort.
-Adventure games aren't all that hot these days unless they're Uncharted clones. And something with a budget like that would have to be multiplat or a first party exclusive anyway.
-Because third party devs are rarely gonna make console exclusives just because. And if they don't think there's an audience for their games on the Wii U, or they just consider the console to have sold too poorly, they'd need some sort of incentive (i.e. moneyhats) to make an exclusive game.
The Wii is a pretty terrible excuse since the system had a dismal attach rate. Sure, people bought Wii, and most of them hardly bought another game.
Why would a third party publisher think it's their job to save a dying system? They're out to make money, not play the white knight. They would love for Wii U to take off, they'd love for it to bring in new gamers who wanted to buy their games. It just hasn't happened yet, and they aren't going to take risks making games for a system that doesn't have a very good chance of paying off yet.
Why would a third party publisher think it's their job to save a dying system? They're out to make money, not play the white knight. They would love for Wii U to take off, they'd love for it to bring in new gamers who wanted to buy their games. It just hasn't happened yet, and they aren't going to take risks making games for a system that doesn't have a very good chance of paying off yet.
Inazuma has never gotten localized before. The DQ games are because SE gave up on DQ on the west. EX Troopers didn't get localized on the PS3 either. The first Unchained Blades got localized recently, so that one could come here too.
The wii's attach rate is over 9. In line with the other systems. By volume, iirc, it sold more third party software than the other 2 consoles. Certainly I recall much more third party sales than first party sales (Nintendo software was about 1/3 of software sales).
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Isn't this an argument from some people for why third-parties aren't supporting Nintendo? That Yamauchi management was so bad for third-parties in the past and that's the reason for their unwillingness to support them? If you believe it's bad to believe billion dollar businesses hold grudges, I guess you should question whatever person who defends this idea that third-parties hates Nintendo because Yamauchi was mean to them.
Metallix87
Member
My OP wasn't specifically about the 3DS.
Samurai_Heart
Member
The Inazuma series has been released in Europe and very true on DQ, as the last localised titles were done by Nintendo, I believe.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
In regards to Vita and 3DS announcements, Vita must have grabbed hold of the "otaku" niche including the West so that's probably why the "otaku" games are getting localized, not to mention I have a feeling it's cheap to license these Vita games compared to the ones released on 3DS because they're from much smaller studios than say Konami, Capcom, or Square Enix.
In regards to the Wii and core games, it's probably brand perception and where the future is headed. Nintendo home consoles lost its 3rd party face and still lost it back in the PS1 days when Sony won that gen thanks to the giant support of 3rd parties. People don't (and never will) associate Nintendo home consoles with CoD, Assassin's Creed, FF, MGS, Tekken, etc. with Nintendo home consoles,they associate that with PS, Xbox, and even PC. Adding to that, Sony and Microsoft pushed for HD and the developers had to adapt to that, thus leaving the Wii out.
In regards to the Wii and core games, it's probably brand perception and where the future is headed. Nintendo home consoles lost its 3rd party face and still lost it back in the PS1 days when Sony won that gen thanks to the giant support of 3rd parties. People don't (and never will) associate Nintendo home consoles with CoD, Assassin's Creed, FF, MGS, Tekken, etc. with Nintendo home consoles,they associate that with PS, Xbox, and even PC. Adding to that, Sony and Microsoft pushed for HD and the developers had to adapt to that, thus leaving the Wii out.
Xv Elite vX
Banned
I understand your points, but the modern production model is obviously not working. Nintendo needs the support of the developers to increase thier User Base and create fresh new experiences. Would it not be cheaper to develop games on the Wii U than it would be for other sytems?
metalslimer
Member
No that was why 3rd parties abandoned Nintendo for the PS1 because Sony gave a cheaper and healthier alternative than Yamauchi's iron grip. Nintendo has yet to give them a real reason to come back to their consoles. But no, if Square Enix and Nintendo can work together after the shit that happened with Yamauchi and Square than I don't think grudges are the issue from 16 years ago. And it wasn't even all about how terrible of a person Yamauchi was to 3rd parties. It was just so much cheaper with the lower royaltie fees and CDs vs carts which made 3rd parties originally abandon Nintendo.
So yes I think anyone who thinks 3rd parties aren't with Nintendo consoles now because of Yamauchi is wrong.
I'm done arguing the point though. Fans too emotionally invested in companies will do whatever it takes to shift blame elsewhere.
Metallix87
Member
Do you think it's possible that they're not with Nintendo consoles because they don't think they can compete with Nintendo's quality first party titles? I've heard that reasoning touted around before.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Wouldn't be any cheaper to make games for the Wii U than for the PS360. I don't know what the average cost of a PS4/Xbone game would be though, but these days most non-first party games are multiplats so devs wouldn't have made Wii U exclusives anyway, unless Nintendo footed the bill.
As for Nintendo needing the support, it's Nintendo's job to attract third party devs and prove there is a market for their games on the Wii U, not third party dev's job to prop up a crumbling console just because.
There was no profit on the Wii.
You can sell all the consoles that you want, people still did not buy shit for it that did not have the usual suspects on it.
There were third party games released early on.
They did nothing compared to the PS3 and 360 and considering that the WII had so many more units out there , excuses really should be few.
Refreshment.01
Member
People are making an effort to educate you here yet you dismiss their comments because they don't align with your believes.
It was really hard for 3rd parties to down port content to the Wii due to the great hardware delta. Some of the few traditional type of games that were exclusives failed to perform well enough to warrant much effort. It was NIntendo failing to go with such ancient hardware.
metalslimer
Member
No because otherwise they wouldn't release FPS titles on systems with CoD. 3rd parties (rightfully or wrongly) think they can get better returns elsewhere than on Nintendo systems. It take developers to make games so if they have to make games for Nintendo they have to either hire more people or shift development resources.This industry is built off of multiplatform development so if you do something to make your system not friendly to MP development when their are 2 other systems to work with 3rd parties won't bother. They are cheap and conservative and it has nothing to do with disliking Nintendo.
The Inazuma games were all localized by Nintendo, much like the last two Dragon Quest games.
Aaron Strife
Banned
But they were very narrow about what they supported. Call of Duty 3, Red Steel, Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition? All million sellers, and in just the first year of the Wii's life. So why didn't we see COD4, Assassin's Creed, or RE5 day and date with the PS360 versions? Sure, some PS360 games wouldn't have worked on Wii due to technical limitations, except these same third-party publishers would go and make full-fledged entries for PSP, and boy did that turn out to be a fucking winning strategy. There's no reason why games like Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep or Grand Theft Auto Liberty City Stories couldn't have been Wii games instead.
When the core Wii owner realized they were getting stiffed by third parties, they left for greener pastures while Nintendo's own games, which were consistently high quality kept selling. And even then when PS360 games were put on Wii, it'd sell comparably to its HD counterparts (like Force Unleashed). The whole "third parties don't sell on Nintendo" stigma is completely self fulfilling prophecy.
Thankfully Ubisoft actually seems to be putting in the muscle for Wii U support, but the third party situation on Wii U is pretty embarrassing and you can't pin that entirely on the big N. I don't know what their internal politics are like (I'm not an expert) but I doubt they're actively trying to sabotage their consoles by spiting third parties. That's silly.
Metallix87
Member
It's not about my supporting or discrediting my beliefs, it's that I don't find the responses being presented as wholly logical. We had a market leader, by a large margin, and third parties were unable to capitalize on that. They flooded the market with shovelware, and when consumers realized what was going on and stopped purchasing those games, third parties did nothing other than throw their arms in the air and declare the Wii as a dead market, despite it basically having become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Let's face some facts. If the Wii U were selling like hotcakes like the Wii was, would it be seeing a slew of 3rd party support right now?
No.
Even when Nintendo hardware was competitive they wanted nothing to do with the GameCube. When the Wii was selling like hotcakes they mostly ignored it outside of spin-off material. First they were the "kiddie" system, then they were the "casual" system, now they're just the "failing" system (at least that last one's valid).
Here's another reason people often forget to look at though; the proprietary formats. 3rd parties didn't want to pay Nintendo extra royalties for their proprietary N64 cartridge format. 3rd parties didn't want to pay Nintendo extra royalties for their proprietary GC not-mini-DVD format. 3rd parties didn't want to pay Nintendo extra royalties for their proprietary Wii not-DVD format. And 3rd parties don't want to pay Nintendo extra royalties for their proprietary not-BluRay format. They'll do it for their low budget shit that they're not expecting to sell incredibly well anyway, but not for their major over-budgeted releases where they want every last penny they can get.
No.
Even when Nintendo hardware was competitive they wanted nothing to do with the GameCube. When the Wii was selling like hotcakes they mostly ignored it outside of spin-off material. First they were the "kiddie" system, then they were the "casual" system, now they're just the "failing" system (at least that last one's valid).
Here's another reason people often forget to look at though; the proprietary formats. 3rd parties didn't want to pay Nintendo extra royalties for their proprietary N64 cartridge format. 3rd parties didn't want to pay Nintendo extra royalties for their proprietary GC not-mini-DVD format. 3rd parties didn't want to pay Nintendo extra royalties for their proprietary Wii not-DVD format. And 3rd parties don't want to pay Nintendo extra royalties for their proprietary not-BluRay format. They'll do it for their low budget shit that they're not expecting to sell incredibly well anyway, but not for their major over-budgeted releases where they want every last penny they can get.
Refreshment.01
Member
Then respond properly to the argument. Here i'll repeat:
It was really hard for 3rd parties to down port content to the Wii due to the great hardware delta. Some of the few traditional type of games that were exclusives failed to perform well enough to warrant much effort. It was NIntendo failing to go with such ancient hardware.
Adress the above please.
Well im sure could map the controls quite well. Why do you think is not possible?
Please explain the control mapping for Batman: Arkham City on a Wiimote+Nunchuk.
D.Lo
Member
I've thought this was at least partially true for years.
3rd parties want to be dominant on the dominant platform that's impossible if Nintendo wins.
You only have to look at their response to the original PSP. Japanese and especially western developers were salivating at the thought of killing off Nintendo's handheld dominance, and gave an expensive, poorly thought-out handheld completely unprecedented support while completely ignoring the DS.
The 'test' games on the Wii and the response was some of the stupidest business ever done in the industry. The Wii could have made everyone much more money.
And removing the 'hardware power' argument, the Gamecube gave them everything they really needed and more at the time (everyone was going on about online gaming but only a tiny percentage of PS2 owners ever went online), was was ignored in favour of not only the PS2 but complete newcomer Microsoft who literally bought their way in.
As of last fiscal year, Wii and PS3 both had a tie-ratio of around 9 games (it was slightly higher for PS3). 360 was about 10 but came out a year earlier, and earlier release always equals higher tie ratio.
Wii owners bought plenty of games. And with a higher install base, that means many more Wii games wold overall than either competitor.
3rd parties want to be dominant on the dominant platform that's impossible if Nintendo wins.
You only have to look at their response to the original PSP. Japanese and especially western developers were salivating at the thought of killing off Nintendo's handheld dominance, and gave an expensive, poorly thought-out handheld completely unprecedented support while completely ignoring the DS.
The 'test' games on the Wii and the response was some of the stupidest business ever done in the industry. The Wii could have made everyone much more money.
And removing the 'hardware power' argument, the Gamecube gave them everything they really needed and more at the time (everyone was going on about online gaming but only a tiny percentage of PS2 owners ever went online), was was ignored in favour of not only the PS2 but complete newcomer Microsoft who literally bought their way in.
Absolute pure ignorance.
As of last fiscal year, Wii and PS3 both had a tie-ratio of around 9 games (it was slightly higher for PS3). 360 was about 10 but came out a year earlier, and earlier release always equals higher tie ratio.
Wii owners bought plenty of games. And with a higher install base, that means many more Wii games wold overall than either competitor.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Wii was popular for a completely different reason (and they're now either playing Kinect and/or iOS games). I'm pretty sure during the reveal and the release, it has attracted that crowd and not those who played Halo, FF, KH, MGS, Tekken, etc. and devs have already probably realized this early on.
Metallix87
Member
Fine: Why not simply port PSP content to Wii for the West? You'd avoid large development costs of original Wii content, and avoid the dreaded situation that ended up happening: PSP titles selling well in Japan, and either bombing here or not being localized, simply because the PSP market may have been just as bad or worse than the Wii market.
Why are people acting like this is new? There were plenty of good looking games on the DS and GBA that never got localised. It was never an issue of 3rd party fighting nintendo, it was that the 3rd parties never saw the point of releasing them in the west. Only companies like atlus and xseed really brought these games over for the DS and they didn't exactly make bank on them.
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