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[gantz85]

People don't know that the story is going to be good, they're just equating good facial technology with emotion and good storytelling. Ten years ago, Planescape had emotion. Grim Fandango had emotion. Heavy Rain looks very nice and may be a great game with great storytelling, but its too early to hype it into the stratosphere as "The game that brings emotion into gaming."

The hype is separate from the point of this thread, but I am suprised so few people have understood. I did not do a good enough job in explicating my point.

 

[wolfmat]

The hype is separate from the point of this thread, but I am suprised so few people have understood. I did not do a good enough job in explicating my point.

The language barrier might play a role in this. I know how frustrating that can be.

 

[gantz85]

The language barrier might play a role in this. I know how frustrating that can be.

I don't mind it all that much, but I do think that forays out of the conventional thread can be sometimes met with the venom spewed in this thread. It doesn't affect me greatly and I can push on to try and create conversation and dialogue about the points that I care about in this thread.

I still think that there is a point to be made when I say there are games which are not necessarily fun but are still compelling gaming experiences. ICO was one such for me, but it doesn't mean that ICO was not fun for everyone. I keep referring to movies and literature which are not best described as "fun" or "entertaining" (without denying that these items may contain such elements) but are still very memorable, important and worth our time and money.

In this way I am trying to put forth a question about whether criterias outside of just plain "fun" can take the foreground or more important role when judging a game. Of course, I am also asking further whether these games will ever make it big and whether our reviewers can cope with their sophistication.

 

[Attack You]

It would be useful to know more about Heavy Rain first, so far I have only seen a few screens which may or may not be touched up. I'm inclined to think it will not reach the heights of intelligence or gravitas it is aiming for.

I do feel gaming needs to develop, 'fun' should not be the base measure of a video-game. I feel the conventions that have come to characterise video-games- objectives, physical interaction, high scores, instant gratification- are holding the industry back, as are the gamers who are more than willing to accept something on the grounds of 'fun' alone. I'd hope when I listen to music or read a book I get a little more out of it than a bit of 'fun', I want it to stir my emotions and give me new perspectives on life.

There does need to be room for 'fun' titles, my gripe is the industry is swimming in the equivalents of Rambo and Finding Nemo, we don't yet have our Citizen Kane so to speak. Some games go part way in acheiving levels of emotional and intellectual power but they always acquiesce, falling back on the crutch of convention and the most conservative expectations of the gaming community. I felt this particularly with Half Life 2, which started off so engaging and promising but before long became just another shooter, albeit a very high quality one with a deeper than usual experience.

At the moment I don't see the influx of new players or 'casuals' as a ball and chain of the industry, there has to be that outlet for the 'fluff' as I like to call it. I feel the core gamers, and the devs, are stunting our growth. Firstly because they have such entrenched expectations and secondly because profit is always the overriding factor, can't really blame the devs for that though, that's capitalism.

One thing that would advance gaming is a shift in focus from visuals, physical interaction and objective based play towards social interactions in games and the underlying structure that makes such a thing possible- that is the AI and narrative. I'm not talking about apeing cinema either, better narrative does not mean hour long cut-scenes, games so often separate the story and gameplay which is a blunder in my eyes.

I don't think its pretentious to demand and expect a little more from games, were the bebop musicians like Charlie Parker or Miles Davis pretentious because they wanted to be more than entertainers making finger-poppin music? Likewise were great actors and directors pretentious because they wanted more than trite love stories, the empty American dream and war propaganda? I don't think so. Its about advancing our artform, gamers have to take an historical perspective and realise just how little the architecture of gaming has changed since its birth. The exterior may look wildly different but the foundations and the scaffolds are still the same.

I'd like to take this post and start a family with it.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Okay. So you mean joyless.

I think the answer is ultimately no because, unlike other forms of entertainment, gaming requires active participation from the user. If you make a game without any incentive at all, gameplay or otherwise, people simply won't cooperate. The only solution would be to remove or subvert the game part of the experience almost completely. Which is fine in small doses, but not something to base a game around.

 

[wolfmat]

I am also asking further whether these games will ever make it big and whether our reviewers can cope with their sophistication.

What you're basically saying is "reviewers are dumb as rocks". Maybe you're a bit elitist here.

 

[gantz85]

Okay. So you mean joyless.

I think the answer is ultimately no because, unlike other forms of entertainment, gaming requires active participation from the user. If you make a game without any incentive at all, gameplay or otherwise, people simply won't cooperate. The only solution would be to remove or subvert the game part of the experience almost completely. Which is fine in small doses, but not something to base a game around.

Joyless is one such apt description of my memorable experience with ICO. I still love it though.

The incentive structure is simple - even ICO had an incentive structure. Hit the enemy, suffer through this wave of shadows and you save your girl. That is a very basic incentive structure. As a whole the game isn't exactly "joyful" or "fun".

If you're saying that games differ from movies in that they fundamentally require a "joyful" and constant "incentive" structure that will not allow passive great works like that of Tolstoy's and Coen Brothers' to be lauded for, then that's an interesting point. Then maybe the industry and us can never be ready.

 

[wolfmat]

that will not allow passive great works like that of Tolstoy's and Coen Brothers'

Don't name Tolstoi and the Coen Brothers in one sentence. There's worlds between them.

 

[gantz85]

What you're basically saying is "reviewers are dumb as rocks". Maybe you're a bit elitist here.

How about I say that every field's dominant paradigm or institution has its own vocabulary and judging criteria; tennis, football, soccer, baseketball, games, movies, books, fishing, music, and such. I'm asking whether the gaming press has the vocabulary and the framework that is rich enough to describe, analyse and judge works that have far more than "fun".

I don't exactly think that reviewers are dumb as rocks, although I must admit I don't always have a high opinion of the gaming press as a whole save for some individuals (Croal -- though he is iffy sometimes). But this is a matter of preference; I think alot of reviewers in other fields don't necessarily do lots of good as well.

 

[MGrant]

It sounds like you folks want something that is not a video game, or at least only housed in the vague husk of user input. Many people bring big talk to the table, talk of "evolving" and "enriching" gaming, elevating it to "high art" status. But I've never heard a practical method of doing so while still staying within the confines of a video game. Most ideas generally center around improving the quality of the game's story, or the way a character interacts with the world, all while deemphasizing traditional game mechanics like puzzles, combat, and complex movement; however, all of these ultimately water the "game" concept of the piece down to little more than a DVD menu: input certain commands to see an event take place.

It seems a bit akin to wanting food to accomplish the same things. Culinary artists are very talented, but there are limits to the medium.

What idea does the OP or his supporters offer to truly advance the medium? I'd like to see a brief outline of a game that fits this school of thought, including control methods and an event that could take place in this game.

 

[Chinner]

"HEAVY RAIN WILL REDEFINE GAMING AS WE KNOW IT!"
"How?"
"I don't know..."

 

[wolfmat]

How about I say that every field's dominant paradigm or institution has its own vocabulary and judging criteria; tennis, football, soccer, baseketball, games, movies, books, fishing, music, and such. I'm asking whether the gaming press has the vocabulary and the framework that is rich enough to describe, analyse and judge works that have far more than "fun".

I don't exactly think that reviewers are dumb as rocks, although I must admit I don't always have a high opinion of the gaming press as a whole save for some individuals (Croal -- though he is iffy sometimes). But this is a matter of preference; I think alot of reviewers in other fields don't necessarily do lots of good as well.

Okay, whenever I read Croal's critics, I immediately get this weird feeling when someone is talking about something he doesn't know shit about and everybody in the room knows it.

The games he loves are mediocre mass-market cannon fodder in my opinion.

The first thing you said amounts to you proclaiming HR will be something that's out of the box. I say wait and see. You have a controller in your hands after all, so there may be a heavy emphasis on story, but it still boils down to pressing buttons.

 

[gantz85]

It sounds like you folks want something that is not a video game, or at least only housed in the vague husk of user input. Many people bring big talk to the table, talk of "evolving" and "enriching" gaming, elevating it to "high art" status. But I've never heard a practical method of doing so while still staying within the confines of a video game. Most ideas generally center around improving the quality of the game's story, or the way a character interacts with the world, all while deemphasizing traditional game mechanics like puzzles, combat, and complex movement; however, all of these ultimately water the "game" concept of the piece down to little more than a DVD menu: input certain commands to see an event take place.

It seems a bit akin to wanting food to accomplish the same things. Culinary artists are very talented, but there are limits to the medium.

What idea does the OP or his supporters offer to truly advance the medium? I'd like to see a brief outline of a game that fits this school of thought, including control methods and an event that could take place in this game.

My point is more conservative though; you're mixing up calls for unusual or extraordinary innovation to mine for whether gaming can accomodate for more than just "fun". These games can easily take the form of conventional controls and such but just offering a different sort of gameplay experience that does not have "fun" as its defining descriptor. Absorbing, compelling but not necessarily "fun".

"HEAVY RAIN WILL REDEFINE GAMING AS WE KNOW IT!"
"How?"
"I don't know..."

You didn't even read the thread.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

It sounds like you folks want something that is not a video game, or at least only housed in the vague husk of user input. Many people bring big talk to the table, talk of "evolving" and "enriching" gaming, elevating it to "high art" status. But I've never heard a practical method of doing so while still staying within the confines of a video game.

I had a huge Braidgasm just now.

 

[MGrant]

My point is more conservative though; you're mixing up calls for unusual or extraordinary innovation to mine for whether gaming can accomodate for more than just "fun". These games can easily take the form of conventional controls and such but just offering a different sort of gameplay experience that does not have "fun" as its defining descriptor. Absorbing, compelling but not necessarily "fun".

You're right; I merged your opinion and Haruspex's into a big ball of crazy chimeric opinion. Yours is more reasonable, but I'm unclear on your definition of "fun." I have fun seeing thought-provoking movies, collecting involving music, and polishing my monocle (okay I'm not that sophisticated); the release of emotions I experience after taking in a good piece of art is a fun event, otherwise I wouldn't do it.

So I'm going to assume by "fun" you mean genre staples of action, adventure, and triumph. Can the medium accommodate more than these? Absolutely. And it has, and will continue to do so.

I'm really curious to hear what you want. You use terms like "absorbing" and "compelling," but that's kind of vague. Do you have any ideas as to how a game can do this? Maybe take an existing game and point out flaws and what could be done to rectify them and improve the experience artistically.

I had a huge Braidgasm just now.

Braid is great. It's like running through a playground-turned-art-gallery. But it sticks so heavily to established game conventions as a vehicle for the story that I don't think it qualifies as the sort of rebirth some people are looking for.

 

[gofreak]

I think it's a bit premature to drag Heavy Rain into this debate.

But the debate is valid enough, as to whether games have to be 'fun' to be worthy or engaging or entertaining. I think there's already games that aren't so much about 'fun' as they are about engaging the player in other ways, but I think it's also true that the range of potentially engaging experiences hasn't been fully explored yet, at least relative to other forms of entertainment like movies or books.

It's easy to come off as pretentious when advocating games as a broader medium, but it's still a debate worth having. I don't know the answer, maybe games shouldn't or won't extend to those other kinds of 'not necessarily fun but still entertaining/engaging experiences' to as full a degree as other entertainment types.

 

[Chinner]

You didn't even read the thread.

I did. Its incredibly premature and I wouldn't be suprised if you're a sneaky viral marketer.

Yes yes I know. Heavy Rain is going to be story orientated. And while we're talking about Heavy Rain, I'm not sure why you've decided to call the movement into story based and "psychologically engaging" games 'Heavy Rains'. There have been and there still are games that are attempting and doing this (hello Braid!).

The general tone of your thread is 'when'. When are we going to move into something that is complex emotionally? I think a more appriopiate question is 'if'? Its not a matter of when will we see a large scale (I am using large scale because there are games doing this) moment, but IF we will see this ever happen. You've already admitted in your OP that the majority of these games require a large budget and need to sell a million plus to go positive (always exceptions - Hello Braid again). But ya know, call me crazy because I do like to think on the outer edge of the ice ring, but lets just ya know, look at the Nintendo Wii for a minute. The sales pretty much show us that the majority of people don't want a game like this. Thats not to say that there isn't a market for these kind of games, and there are clearly alot of games out there like this but I wouldn't get your hopes up to see a increase.

 

[Feindflug]

People are really hyped for Heavy Rain even though we haven't seen much of it and it's coming from a developer that made like 2 decent games but nothing special..well I'm sure the big budget from Sony will help them but getting so hyped about a game we haven't seen much of it it's somewhat pointless.

I'm interested in Heavy Rain as well because I enjoyed Farheneit but I guess I'll wait for some more media/impressions, Team ICO's next game is the game to be hyped about when it comes to pushing emotions and feelings.

 

[gantz85]

I'm really curious to hear what you want. You use terms like "absorbing" and "compelling," but that's kind of vague. Do you have any ideas as to how a game can do this? Maybe take an existing game and point out flaws and what could be done to rectify them and improve the experience artistically.

It doesn't have to break out and create a new genre all of its own; look at ICO for example. I didn't think it was all that "fun" but it was absorbing and compelling for me. I'm not interested in criticizing current games but I'm not interested about the kind of game that Heavy Rain promises -- and more. Will there be a game that touches on serious themes and be compelling experiences without being called out as pretentious unnecessarily? Will these games be successful and sell?

There are plenty of forms of games that can come in the future, but the kind that Heavy Rain promises is something like, I think, when a creator comes by and thinks.. "Hey, I want to tell a story of a father and his love for his son. The father is prone to blackouts and memory loss and one day, when he takes his child out to the amusement park he blacks out and when he awakes, it is raining and his son is missing." Now that is appealing to me. It is also coincidentally the supposed leaked premise of Heavy Rain.

The general tone of your thread is 'when'. When are we going to move into something that is complex emotionally? I think a more appriopiate question is 'if'? Its not a matter of when will we see a large scale (I am using large scale because there are games doing this) moment, but IF we will see this ever happen. You've already admitted in your OP that the majority of these games require a large budget and need to sell a million plus to go positive (always exceptions - Hello Braid again). But ya know, call me crazy because I do like to think on the outer edge of the ice ring, but lets just ya know, look at the Nintendo Wii for a minute. The sales pretty much show us that the majority of people don't want a game like this. Thats not to say that there isn't a market for these kind of games, and there are clearly alot of games out there like this but I wouldn't get your hopes up to see a increase.

My tone is closer to "if" than "when though. Will games like HR sell? Can they be sustainable development ventures? Can they be received by critics who analyse it with a framework that can tease out the relevant important factors?

I do agree with you that the sales for mega-hits show that the majority of the consumer base now want a different kind of game but this doesn't mean that ALL game development should be trying to make the next Halo 3, God of War, Gears of War, Final Fantasy, etc. Plenty of movie makers make movies to tell stories and communicate their vision to the audience, with the intent that it makes profit to sustain the development of future films.

 

[Mr. Durden]

huh? we have 3 pictures no gameplay info, no gameplay video, no nothing, and you got a thread like this?

And the whole 1+ million for profitability?

Homie, you're like, 5 months too early

This.

Stop the fucking "Heavy Rain based on nothing bullshit hype" please. It's getting out of hand and borderline ridiculous.

 

[StuBurns]

I'm buying it, but to say it's something so obtuse that it's beyond the majority of modern gamers is absurd. It's sales will reflect what gamers want, not what they can comprehend.

 

[gantz85]

People are really hyped for Heavy Rain even though we haven't seen much of it and it's coming from a developer that made like 2 decent games but nothing special..well I'm sure the big budget from Sony will help them but getting so hyped about a game we haven't seen much of it it's somewhat pointless.

I'm interested in Heavy Rain as well because I enjoyed Farheneit but I guess I'll wait for some more media/impressions, Team ICO's next game is the game to be hyped about when it comes to pushing emotions and feelings.

I do hold Team ICOlympic in high regard, and in terms of hype I am definitely excited to know more about their next game. Ueda's direction of "subtraction" results in a minimalist general framework of gaming though peppered with insane detail, and I would think that games like Heavy Rain would contrast with a thick narrative plot.

Upon reflection, I think Matsuno's Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story are both narrative masterpieces in the Japanese gaming library, although the former suffers abit from the end-of-the-world and demon-aargh stuff that most games use. Hmm.. I am really impressed with FFT though, although it's very much a copy of Tactics Ogre. A story of two friends, each from a different background with two sisters, starting out as squires... One of them suffers the death of his sister, and the two diverge alongst their own paths. That's why at the end, Delita says, "Ramza... what did you get? I... ..." Best line in J-gaming, in my opinion.

 

[MGrant]

It doesn't have to break out and create a new genre all of its own; look at ICO for example.

I know what you're saying; I'm just wondering how your vision of these story-intensive games differs from story-intensive games that exist today, beyond a call for better writers.

I didn't think it was all that "fun" but it was absorbing and compelling for me.

Before we can go further down that front, I need you to define what you mean by "fun," "absorbing," and "compelling." You're throwing those around like buzzwords, and they could mean anything.

"Hey, I want to tell a story of a father and his love for his son. The father is prone to blackouts and memory loss and one day, when he takes his child out to the amusement park he blacks out and when he awakes, it is raining and his son is missing."

When I hear a synopsis like that, I think less of high art and more of that Jodie Foster thriller with the disappearing child. Flightplan, I think? Actually, it would also fit the bill for the next Shyamalan film. The reason his son vanished? Plants. Or Jesus or something.

 

[KittenMaster]

Just because the article says it won't be fun doesn't mean it won't be. If it's good for what it's worth, it will be fun in a different way than jumping on goombas and shooting NPCs.

 

[Zedsdeadbaby]

What is with the Heavy Rain hype? So little information, and just five screenshots, and we're seeing threads like this?

The OP is just going to be disappointed big time to be honest. Enthusiasm is wonderful, but honestly - somebody here needs to keep it in check.

 

[gantz85]

Before we can go further down that front, I need you to define what you mean by "fun," "absorbing," and "compelling." You're throwing those around like buzzwords, and they could mean anything.

Those words are what I "feel" and not "buzzwords". Defining them are the wrong way to go in my opinion, unless you want to bring on some equipment and record my physiological response when I play ICO. I don't think I can boil them down to simpler words.. you have to read all my posts to see how I try and richen my description of these terms or my general point.

E.g. I don't think Citizen Kane the movie or The Godfather were "fun" films, but they were "absorbing" and "compelling" films. A fun film would be something like Hellboy 2.

 

[Dead Man]

Those words are what I "feel" and not "buzzwords". Defining them are the wrong way to go in my opinion, unless you want to bring on some equipment and record my physiological response when I play ICO. I don't think I can boil them down to simpler words.. you have to read all my posts to see how I try and richen my description of these terms or my general point.

E.g. I don't think Citizen Kane the movie or The Godfather were "fun" films, but they were "absorbing" and "compelling" films. A fun film would be something like Hellboy 2.

Not being able to define your terms makes constructive discussion incredibly difficult. Defining them is not boiling them down, it's building them up so they are more robust.

 

[MGrant]

Those words are what I "feel" and not "buzzwords". Defining them are the wrong way to go in my opinion, unless you want to bring on some equipment and record my physiological response when I play ICO. I don't think I can boil them down to simpler words.. you have to read all my posts to see how I try and richen my description of these terms or my general point.

Unfortunately, when you're trying to convince others of your position, you need to use words that carry a universal meaning. If these words are "what [you] feel" (and I imagine you drawling out a "maaaan" after that phrase) and can't be understood by others outside your brain, then there's no debate here; you're using nebulous, undefined terms. If you can't express what you want in clear diction, what makes you think you have any ideas worth bringing to the table?

So you want more games that feel like Ico. I think we all do. Will they sell? Who knows?

 

[Calcaneus]

I think that if we push for games that have great narratives and are psychologically engaging, but not necessarily much in terms of gameplay, then we are doing more to hurt videogames in the long run. The great thing about videogames is the fact that they give us a level of interactivity that can't be possible in movies. If Quantum Dream are going to make a game that ignores gameplay in favor of an engrossing narrative, I wouldn't find that to be a particularly interesting videogame.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm waiting until a developer can achieve both, then I will be excited for the "new dawn of videogames" or whatever. People can make great narratives, its happened before, but I personally wouldn't be that impressed with Heavy Rain if it were to give me a great story without compelling me on a interactive level.

 

[thuway]

The hell is Heavy Rain?
And if it's anything like Team ICO's "games", I'd say we could quite do without it.

WAIT, what?

 

[gantz85]

Unfortunately, when you're trying to convince others of your position, you need to use words that carry a universal meaning. If these words are "what [you] feel" (and I imagine you drawling out a "maaaan" after that phrase) and can't be understood by others outside your brain, then there's no debate here; you're using nebulous, undefined terms. If you can't express what you want in clear diction, what makes you think you have any ideas worth bringing to the table?

I'm not avoiding the language issue because I can't define my position or such. I'm more of a Wittgenstein-ist and I think asking for more primitives of a primitive cannot be accomplished. I think describing my points with examples are far more effective than trying to draw dictionary breakdowns of already atomic terms.

 

[KevinCow]

I don't understand why "fun" and "psychologically engaging" seem to be mutually exclusive to some people. Personally, I don't care how great everything else is, if a game has shit gameplay, I'm not playing it.

That's not to say that a game needs to make me happy. But come on, try to find a way to convey the emotions you want me to feel through gameplay without me saying, "Holy shit, this plays like shit."

 

[Haunted]

Playing games that aren't fun solely for the sake of seeing the story unfold? Looks like the OP hasn't played a jRPG yet.

This thread sits on the intersection of Pretentiousness Road and Hype Avenue.

nice.

 

[painful fart]

I´d like to thank the OP and the non-troll posters.

Surely an interesting topic and from some comments we can see that some of the GAF audience is not ready for this or is just not capable of grasping a new concept.

As I see it, Heavy Rain is an experimental title of Sony trying to expand the game market toward movies. Considering how much of modern movies are animated I think it´s a natural step. I remember right Leonardo DiCaprio turned down mo-cap-acting for the game but I think that shows in what direction they are trying to take the game.

It will be really interesting to see how the game turns out, I guess we can rule out the hard core fps buyers, but on the other side of the spectrum it may attract some of the people that bought the PS3 as mainly a BD player. I think it´s all about expanding the market.

 

[MGrant]

I'm not avoiding the language issue because I can't define my position or such. I'm more of a Wittgenstein-ist and I think asking for more primitives of a primitive cannot be accomplished. I think describing my points with examples are far more effective than trying to draw dictionary breakdowns of already atomic terms.

I'm not asking for dictionary breakdowns, I'm asking for you to put your terms into a context that makes sense outside of your head. "Fun" in what way, "absorbing" in what way, "compelling" in what way? As a Wittgensteinist, you're fully aware that, if you cannot show your ideas, they can't be discussed.

 

[Calcaneus]

I don't understand why "fun" and "psychologically engaging" seem to be mutually exclusive to some people. Personally, I don't care how great everything else is, if a game has shit gameplay, I'm not playing it.

That's not to say that a game needs to make me happy. But come on, try to find a way to convey the emotions you want me to feel through gameplay without me saying, "Holy shit, this plays like shit."

Exactly, I'm more excited for games that can be compelling while using gameplay in interesting ways, not games that are just going to ape movies.

 

[KevinCow]

As I see it, Heavy Rain is an experimental title of Sony trying to expand the game market toward movies. Considering how much of modern movies are animated I think it´s a natural step. I remember right Leonardo DiCaprio turned down mo-cap-acting for the game but I think that shows in what direction they are trying to take the game.

This isn't pushing gaming forward, it's dumbing it down. Developers need to embrace interactivity and stop relying on cutscenes as a crutch. Until games stop trying to be movies, they won't realize their potential as a storytelling medium.

 

[Omotesando]

This isn't pushing gaming forward, it's dumbing it down. Developers need to embrace interactivity and stop relying on cutscenes as a crutch. Until games stop trying to be movies, they won't realize their potential as a storytelling medium.

This is taking another road, not dumbing it down, developers need to experiment, the industry having more variation and diverse titles, interactive or cinematic whatever, is what pushes the industry forward.

 

[Chinner]

Seriously guys, just play Braid.

 

[gantz85]

Seriously guys, just play Braid.

I wouldn't be suprised if you're a sneaky viral marketer.

Oh wait.

 

[AKS]

Yeah, but would it be entertaining? I mean, Fahrenheit was not entertaining!
And if "The Casting" demo did anything for you on an emotional level... You know what, I'm just going to never discuss this game again. Forget it.

Maybe not to you, but I loved my experience playing Fahrenheit. There were so many clever touches that made me smile throughout, and if Heavy Rain expands and improves upon those ideas, I can't wait to play through this one.

In addition, Heavy Rain seems like the kind of game that would greatly benefit from HD graphics and the massive storage capacity of a Blu-ray disc. Heavy Rain is without a doubt one of my most eagerly anticipated games.

 

[Chinner]

I wouldn't be suprised if you're a sneaky viral marketer.

Oh wait.

OH NO YOU DIDNT

 

[KevinCow]

This is taking another road, not dumbing it down, developers need to experiment, the industry having more variation and diverse titles, interactive or cinematic whatever, is what pushes the industry forward.

They tried the whole "interactive movie" thing in the mid-'90s when everyone got all excited about CDs.

They sucked. It just doesn't work.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I wouldn't be suprised if you're a sneaky viral marketer.

Oh wait.

He's right though. It does exactly what you're discussing in several ways.

I don't understand why you feel the way you do about the gaming press, though. Considering BioShock, whose story is nothing but straightforward pulp, was discussed and reviewed as though David Foster Wallace had written the game's bible. When a game arrives with a truly mature story behind it, like Braid, a handful of reviewers might pan it, but most of them are too busy discussing its intricacies.

Also, it's doing rather well sales-wise. You have to remember that for the most part, while the hardcore gamer supports games that may appear rather simplistic and non-complex, their demands in other media are quite the opposite. They enjoy shows like The Wire, comic books like Watchmen, etc.

For the most part, the hardcore gaming audience is intelligent enough to support a game of complexity financially. Will it cross over into mainstream acceptance? That's debatable. I don't think it need necessarily be "fun". The end of Braid is pretty much the complete opposite of "fun", but it is completely engrossing. I think the mainstream perception of games has almost nothing to do with the narrative complexity you describe and instead resides on completely the other side of the spectrum: PURELY fun games like Wii Sports and Rock Band are the order of the day.

 

[Omotesando]

They tried the whole "interactive movie" thing in the mid-'90s when everyone got all excited about CDs.

They sucked. It just doesn't work.

Well, that shouldn't be a prerogative to stop experimenting. I applaud developers like Quantic Dream, Team Ico and Remedy. I think they are good for the industry.

 

[Haunted]

I´d like to thank the OP and the non-troll posters.

Surely an interesting topic and from some comments we can see that some of the GAF audience is not ready for this or is just not capable of grasping a new concept.

As I see it, Heavy Rain is an experimental title of Sony trying to expand the game market toward movies. Considering how much of modern movies are animated I think it´s a natural step. I remember right Leonardo DiCaprio turned down mo-cap-acting for the game but I think that shows in what direction they are trying to take the game.

It will be really interesting to see how the game turns out, I guess we can rule out the hard core fps buyers, but on the other side of the spectrum it may attract some of the people that bought the PS3 as mainly a BD player. I think it´s all about expanding the market.

Cinematic gaming started with the PS1, so it's nothing new.

But Quantic Dream is pushing cinematic gaming in the right direction, imo, by incorporating the narrative and cinematic elements into the gameplay (you can tell they tried that with 2005's Fahrenheit, which Heavy Rain is the spiritual successor to) - which is something much more progressive and interesting than the passive entertainment something like MGS4 is providing, for example.

Cinematic gaming that interweaves gameplay and narrative (Bioshock, Fahrenheit, SotC) = awesome. Cinematic gaming that is too cutscene-heavy and basically tries to emulate movies (interactive movies from the 90's, MGS4) = shit.

 

[painful fart]

Cinematic gaming started with the PS1, so it's nothing new.

But Quantic Dream is pushing cinematic gaming in the right direction, imo, by incorporating the narrative and cinematic elements into the gameplay (you can tell they tried that with 2005's Fahrenheit, which Heavy Rain is the spiritual successor to) - which is something much more progressive and interesting than the passive entertainment something like MGS4 is providing, for example.

Cinematic gaming that interweaves gameplay and narrative (Bioshock, Fahrenheit, SotC) = awesome. Cinematic gaming that is too cutscene-heavy and basically tries to emulate movies (interactive movies from the 90's, MGS4) = shit.

I have not played Fahrenheit so I don´t really know the legacy of Quantic Dreams, but I don´t really have as much problem with non-interactive cut-scenes as you seem to have. I often fuck around, jumping up on tables and stuff during inter-active cut-scenes just to see if I can provoke some reaction from the NPCs around me, usually no one cares. :lol
Non-interactive cut-scenes like MGS4 let me concentrate on the story being delivered without the distraction of dumb NPCs. I am not saying inter-active cut-scenes a la HL2 can´t be good, I think both types deserve their place.

I really look forward to learn more about how narrative driven Heavy Rain will be, how the story can take different paths and so on.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

heh.

 

[kiUNiT]

If you're still looking for that great experience that sets the PS3 apart from the other consols you already have it with Bluray.This game looks like a rental so far, so hopefully it sells enough to recoup development costs.

 

[painful fart]

heh.

Please tell me about the inter-active cut scenes of Fahrenheit, if that´s what you are getting at.