ViolentP
Member
Why so angry, bruv? It's the holidays!
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Are we really ok with a microtransaction'd souls clone?
- Thread starter Vex_
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Why so angry, bruv? It's the holidays!
DomsPlaying
Member
When I first heard of Let It Die, I heard the Souls/Bloodborne comparisons but I honestly don't see much after I've played LID for a number of hours. Sure it's challenging and there are some boss battles, but it's more a roguelike hack and slash than Souls "clone."
And I'll echo what others have said, I've played for a while now and didn't need to pay a cent to progress. I've heard it gets tougher in the upper floors, sure, so I can report back when I get there, but I just wanted to share my experience that I'm enjoying the game and don't find it so challenging that I need to pay to progress.
In fact, I purchased the "express pass" item from their new storefront because it helps from a quality of life standpoint (allows more inventory and you don't have to pay *in-game currency* (edit) to revisit floors you've already found) and I wanted to support the developers. I'll let you know if my sentiment changes when I try the upper levels of the game.
And I'll echo what others have said, I've played for a while now and didn't need to pay a cent to progress. I've heard it gets tougher in the upper floors, sure, so I can report back when I get there, but I just wanted to share my experience that I'm enjoying the game and don't find it so challenging that I need to pay to progress.
In fact, I purchased the "express pass" item from their new storefront because it helps from a quality of life standpoint (allows more inventory and you don't have to pay *in-game currency* (edit) to revisit floors you've already found) and I wanted to support the developers. I'll let you know if my sentiment changes when I try the upper levels of the game.
UnemployedVillain
Member
The Souls series isn't some chosen franchise that needs to be protected. And Let It Die is a typical F2P model. Don't be so dramatic
MrJoobJoob
Member
Deck13, the studio that did Lords of the Fallen, is doing a sci-fi Souls game. LOTF wasn't the most memorable game but their second outing could be better.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
The game throws you level 200 enemies, because you have to die, because if you are doing too good, and don't die, then how the devs gonna make money?.
Also let's make a PvP mode where paying people have an unfair advantage and steal your resources, because if you can hoard resources because you are a good player, you won't pay.
The game should have been P2P, souls games mechanics are harsh but fair, this games mechanics are designed with the idea of making you pay.
No thanks, I'll just keep playing souls games and the games that understand the appeal of these, without transforming them into F2P cash cows.
Also let's make a PvP mode where paying people have an unfair advantage and steal your resources, because if you can hoard resources because you are a good player, you won't pay.
The game should have been P2P, souls games mechanics are harsh but fair, this games mechanics are designed with the idea of making you pay.
No thanks, I'll just keep playing souls games and the games that understand the appeal of these, without transforming them into F2P cash cows.
Already Torn
Banned
It's the "hot cocoa". I understand.
*sips loudly*
For now. We will see in the future. But from my many, many years of gaming, this never ends well. Many people would agree with me.
Hispanic! At the Disco
Member
Microtransactioned game similar to souls?
Can't help but think of Ghouls and Ghosts at the arcade!
I dont think this would catch on though. I feel like the people who like souls games generally dislike Microtransactions.
Can't help but think of Ghouls and Ghosts at the arcade!
I dont think this would catch on though. I feel like the people who like souls games generally dislike Microtransactions.
Gravy Boat
Member
I don't see Let It Die as P2W at all. If anything I think the micro transactions are very fair to the point where I haven't even considered putting any money into the game yet. I honestly forget they exist until someone else mentions it.
I also don't get the Souls comparrisons. It plays nothing like any Souls game.
I also don't get the Souls comparrisons. It plays nothing like any Souls game.
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
LET IT DIE is such a bad choice to make a point op, sure you wont board a VIP elevator with a babe pouring you champagne but it;s all right
Unfortunately, many people just rush to drive by shitpost when they hear the word "F2P"
Wrong on all accounts.
First of all, those high level characters are rarely an issue if you are prepared, listen to your surroundings and sneak in a room instead of running around like an elephant. In fact, those high level characters are incredibly helpful if you know how to use them to your advantage.
Secondly, the game is balanced around that PvP mechanic and there is a very easy way not to lose money, by not having any splithium in your bank. If you need splithium, you'll do some PvP runs, during which NO ONE can raid you, so nobody can steal you anything.
I guess its kinda the fault of the game if some players dont understand the mechanics properly, but there are plenty of ways to deal with the problems at hand.
Already Torn
Banned
You're literally killing me.
Now I'm going to make a F2P game steals the essence of the Souls games.
RichiRamjag
Member
You're wasting your time. People are suckers and don't think ahead. A game that's slowly heading in that direction is destiny and I'm sure destiny 2 is going to find more ways to encourage microtransactions, but since bungie is always just on the cusp of going that route, people shout ya down.
Then at that point people can stop playing the game if they aren't liking it.
You're being dramatic to a real silly degree bud~
You can already find those in-game, so you'd be wasting money buying them.
It's more roguelike than souls game.
Veritigo_X
Member
Agreed. I was saying what people seem to think when they see this type of game.
How do you describe "souls clones"? If Let It Die is one, there are a lot of them. Some even came out before Dark Souls came out!
No, because it isn't a Souls clone. But I realize I'm wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I played souls games, I know how to slowly advance through a game like this, dosn't make the enemy with a sniper rifle that OHK you from across an area any less unfair, because sometimes things go to shit, even taking it slowly. But you don't have an almost invicible ranged enemy when that happens in souls games.
And I don't want to engage in the PvP mode, because 1) Is not fun 2) Is designed for people who pays 3) I don't want to dedicate time on it, getting better warriors and shit.
Riposte
Member
Let It Die is a Souls clone in the sense that it's combat mechanics are most like the Souls series. Besides that, and a general sense of punishment which isn't exclusive to the Souls series, it's not really a relevant point. There's nothing special about Souls and nothing special about the fact that Let It Die has its combat. To be honest, I don't even understand what your point is.
I completely disagree with your assessment. The game's free-to-play mechanics, aside from one aspect, doesn't really control how powerful you are. Your power level is more depended on leveling up your skills and crafting stronger gear. F2P has no effect on the former and only indirectly affects the latter in rather meaningless ways (you can spend death metals on coins, if you run out, and to spend up the crafting timer - but both are really poor uses of them). The game is kind of grindy in some ways, to be honest, but oddly enough, the F2P mechanics don't really effect that grind much. They don't give you a bunch of materials, they don't instantly level you up, they don't level up your skills, etc. The premium pass gives you more inventory space and free elevators rides, which is nice, but not really powerful.
The one aspect where F2P can become pay-to-win is using death metals as credits/credit-feeding. Being able to instant revive with full health (and an invisibility effect) is really, really good for obvious reasons; in theory, you can cheese any fight with this (one big exception being a deadly enemy type which prevents this, which may be poor business sense lol), like you can credit-feeding in certain arcade games. However, you really don't want to do this (especially on the lowest floors), because what you really want to do is spend your death metals on making your storage huge (100+ is a bare minimum really). To say that the game depends on this kind of credit-feeding (aside from refusing to take a loss) would be kind of ridiculous and it's the only F2P mechanic that is P2W.
EDIT: Not only in the game fairly generous with death metals, if they ever fix it so that the quests which most often give them away, limit quests (kill every enemy on several floors under certain conditions before using an elevator) wasn't so easily broken by haters or environment hazards), you'd effectively be doubling the free access to them. Really hope they fix those quests, if only because they are really interesting mechanically.
Perhaps you are referring to the hater mechanic, which scales with your total progression rather than character progress? There may be an issue there (for new characters) but that's only after reaching the 3rd tier, which is a couple dozen hours into the game - and going by what you are saying, I don't think you've played that far. For haters though (and bosses and pretty much anything), the mushrooms (basically the game's consumable spells, in Souls terms) are so fucking good they can trivialize most encounters and turn to the game to be more about resource management than anything else (especially during those scary treks into higher floors where you have no idea when you'll reach the next elevator). By the 2nd tier, you have invisibility and decoys, super-strong stuff.
I've put 50+ hours in LID and haven't spent a cent (which I actually feel kind of bad about - I would probably throw a few dollars down out of gratitude if I didn't quit cold-turkey). My storage is sufficient even for my material hoarding, I've upgraded tons of armor, mastered the first three tiers, etc. The game doesn't give a lot of reasons to pay up, to its own detriment (I have to imagine at least an item store is coming at some point). This is the common opinion I'm hearing on GAF and twitter. I don't want to make it seem like LID doesn't have flaws or that it is perfectly balanced, but being F2P seems almost irrelevant to that. If you are going to complain about F2P mechanics in games, I can't think of worse game to choose to do that with. Perhaps this is a case of git gud?
Calling it a rogue-like is just as misguided. If anything, it's more like Chalice Dungeons (less random) in Bloodborne than like Rogue.
I completely disagree with your assessment. The game's free-to-play mechanics, aside from one aspect, doesn't really control how powerful you are. Your power level is more depended on leveling up your skills and crafting stronger gear. F2P has no effect on the former and only indirectly affects the latter in rather meaningless ways (you can spend death metals on coins, if you run out, and to spend up the crafting timer - but both are really poor uses of them). The game is kind of grindy in some ways, to be honest, but oddly enough, the F2P mechanics don't really effect that grind much. They don't give you a bunch of materials, they don't instantly level you up, they don't level up your skills, etc. The premium pass gives you more inventory space and free elevators rides, which is nice, but not really powerful.
The one aspect where F2P can become pay-to-win is using death metals as credits/credit-feeding. Being able to instant revive with full health (and an invisibility effect) is really, really good for obvious reasons; in theory, you can cheese any fight with this (one big exception being a deadly enemy type which prevents this, which may be poor business sense lol), like you can credit-feeding in certain arcade games. However, you really don't want to do this (especially on the lowest floors), because what you really want to do is spend your death metals on making your storage huge (100+ is a bare minimum really). To say that the game depends on this kind of credit-feeding (aside from refusing to take a loss) would be kind of ridiculous and it's the only F2P mechanic that is P2W.
EDIT: Not only in the game fairly generous with death metals, if they ever fix it so that the quests which most often give them away, limit quests (kill every enemy on several floors under certain conditions before using an elevator) wasn't so easily broken by haters or environment hazards), you'd effectively be doubling the free access to them. Really hope they fix those quests, if only because they are really interesting mechanically.
Perhaps you are referring to the hater mechanic, which scales with your total progression rather than character progress? There may be an issue there (for new characters) but that's only after reaching the 3rd tier, which is a couple dozen hours into the game - and going by what you are saying, I don't think you've played that far. For haters though (and bosses and pretty much anything), the mushrooms (basically the game's consumable spells, in Souls terms) are so fucking good they can trivialize most encounters and turn to the game to be more about resource management than anything else (especially during those scary treks into higher floors where you have no idea when you'll reach the next elevator). By the 2nd tier, you have invisibility and decoys, super-strong stuff.
I've put 50+ hours in LID and haven't spent a cent (which I actually feel kind of bad about - I would probably throw a few dollars down out of gratitude if I didn't quit cold-turkey). My storage is sufficient even for my material hoarding, I've upgraded tons of armor, mastered the first three tiers, etc. The game doesn't give a lot of reasons to pay up, to its own detriment (I have to imagine at least an item store is coming at some point). This is the common opinion I'm hearing on GAF and twitter. I don't want to make it seem like LID doesn't have flaws or that it is perfectly balanced, but being F2P seems almost irrelevant to that. If you are going to complain about F2P mechanics in games, I can't think of worse game to choose to do that with. Perhaps this is a case of git gud?
Calling it a rogue-like is just as misguided. If anything, it's more like Chalice Dungeons (less random) in Bloodborne than like Rogue.
jacob armitage
Banned
On paper i would have felt similar OP but having played about 60+hours of Let it Die and only spend $7 i'm inclined to side with this games model. Its superb, i get a lot of the currency in rewards and you're able to work towards them with quests. I almost feel bad for only spending so little. Of course as you've said, things may change and if they do, just don't support the game.
I urge everyone with a PS4 to check it out, especially those who are fans of Roguelike-lite, Dark Souls-lite and games with that distinct grasshopper style. Its my biggest surprise of the year.
I urge everyone with a PS4 to check it out, especially those who are fans of Roguelike-lite, Dark Souls-lite and games with that distinct grasshopper style. Its my biggest surprise of the year.
Gotcha, yeah it's just a comparison born from people watching a quick video or something, they're very different styles of games.
I would like to hear you elaborate on this, because i believe it's absolutely not true.
yurinka
Member
Let it Die it isn't a souls clone even if it's hard and shares some mechanics.
Its microtransaction system is ok for me because it isn't intrusive or abusive, it's generous enough and isn't pay 2 win.
You basically pay for shortcuts for stuff you can get later by playing for free. You can really enjoy the game during dozens of hours without needing to pay. In the future who knows, but right now the game is properly balanced.
For the bosses, they are difficult like in similar games. Sometimes you may need certain weak spots, to grind a bit or to get certain weapons or items thay may help you.
Its microtransaction system is ok for me because it isn't intrusive or abusive, it's generous enough and isn't pay 2 win.
You basically pay for shortcuts for stuff you can get later by playing for free. You can really enjoy the game during dozens of hours without needing to pay. In the future who knows, but right now the game is properly balanced.
For the bosses, they are difficult like in similar games. Sometimes you may need certain weak spots, to grind a bit or to get certain weapons or items thay may help you.
Pretty much. This model is not the threat we once thought it was, but it does have it's own little corner of the market. Traditional games are not going anywhere.
John Kowalski
Banned
This game makes me think of Dark Cloud and similar dungeon crawlers before it reminds me of Dark Souls.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
People who pays has no drawbacks on invading bases, when things go wrong, they can jsut leave. Peasants have a real chance of failing, that means they have way more to lose. While people who pays can just keep invading until they find an easy target.
DomsPlaying
Member
Preach!
Though I fear that those of us who enjoy the game are fighting a losing battle in this type of thread, when F2P is viewed negatively no matter the context. I'll just go back to playing it and enjoying quietly ;-)
Get_craycray
Banned
Stop putting vodka in your hot cocoa.
Newtype-001
Member
The game is great sorry Senpai
You sound like someone who didn't actually play the game and just read a couple of bullet points about it.
Memorabilia
Member
You completely missed the most salient point:
F2P games w/ a MT core necessarily have a completely different design strategy which often impacts the flow of a game. Some people may be OK w/ that. A lot of us are not. It almost invariably creates a feeling of being nickel-and-dimed, which pulls a player out of the game rather than providing a seamless experience. I play games for escapism, similar to why I read a good book or watch a good movie. If those experiences are constantly stopping to reach into my wallet its tough at best to enjoy. Though the F2P paradigm may be financially successful, by its very nature it is most definitely a threat to truly escapist narrative based gaming.
Already Torn
Banned
And start adding peppermint schnapps 👌🏻
Veritigo_X
Member
This is what I do anyway and don't pay anything. You can see the target's rank before you invade.
I think the advantage for the pass is you can board the train right away instead of having to wait a minute or whatever. The advantage isn't that good as far as PvP stuff goes.
"Peasants" can leave too, it just takes a little bit before you can leave. It takes no skill whatsoever to just avoid the attacks from the defenders and just run around until the exit is open. The AI is hilariously easy to avoid if your objective is just not dying and getting away.
Yeah the comparison is a little annoying. You can dodge roll and you use triggers to attack, those are the only comparisons and they are not exclusive to Souls games.
Let it Die deserves a little more credit than being relegated to Souls clone territory.
RollerMeister
Neo Member
If you go slow, when you should be going fast, then it's on you. If a sniper is trying to hit you, run up and hit him or run behind a wall and lure him closer.
And not playing the pvp mode is dumb... It's literally free currency 90% of the time... for everyone! Paying doesn't change anything in terms of PVP really.
Ninja Scooter
Member
It's free. Try it out. If it's not for you or is too grindy or reliant on micro transactions, delete it. You've lost nothing. What is there to be "okay" with? Do you want a governmental ban on these games existing?
Demoskinos
Member
The bosses are tough because your not supposed to progress that fucking fast. There are only 40 floors. You need to upgrade your gear to properly take on bosses and you can do so without spending a dime. Quit making this into some big panic.
Let It Die is one of the best F2P games to ever come out its a very high quality game that never shoves the F2P shit in your face if you don't want it. At some point though they need to make money because it is still FREE. If they had implemented an energy/stamina system like so many F2P games do then it would raise some flags for me but they didn't and they are going to continue to add more floors/bosses/items into the game.
Do we always have to go into panic mode when F2P games finally ask for money? Like christ. Its a high quality game that you can play and complete for free and never spend a dime and they even have been giving away a lot of premium items for free if you've been consistently logging in and playing the game like death metals and one day premium passes.
Let It Die is one of the best F2P games to ever come out its a very high quality game that never shoves the F2P shit in your face if you don't want it. At some point though they need to make money because it is still FREE. If they had implemented an energy/stamina system like so many F2P games do then it would raise some flags for me but they didn't and they are going to continue to add more floors/bosses/items into the game.
Do we always have to go into panic mode when F2P games finally ask for money? Like christ. Its a high quality game that you can play and complete for free and never spend a dime and they even have been giving away a lot of premium items for free if you've been consistently logging in and playing the game like death metals and one day premium passes.
jacob armitage
Banned
Let it Die might also be the most fair free to play game i've ever played. Being able to recover downed fighters by defeating them or just paying to recover is superb. Its not pay to win in the slightest, its pay to alleviate a small amount of frustration. There is no avoiding the grind of farming for blueprints, rare materials or levelling up higher grade fighters.
It really is a ton of fun, a great game with a pricing model that deserves to be rewarded, not feared and slandered.
Give Grasshoper some love, check it out.
It really is a ton of fun, a great game with a pricing model that deserves to be rewarded, not feared and slandered.
Give Grasshoper some love, check it out.
Then don't play F2P games? It's not like there's a narrative in most of them anyway. I mean it's F2P game the Dev has to get money some day, can't be mad over that.
KilgoreTrout
Banned
The Souls comparisons, outside of item mechanics and Haters, are weIrd.
Combat and character progression feels more akin to Dead Rising. The dungeon crawling could be I am okay compared to just about any other dungeon crawler in the same way it compares to Dark Souls.
As for the economics of the system, the only thing I feel is unfair about it is how the special vendor pretty much requires you buy and convert death tokens into money to buy some of his items. It seems like a fair system otherwise.
The game can be criticized for having to much grinding and farming. That isn't inherently caused by the F2P mechanics. I'd still need to farm certain floors for certain mushrooms and vermin anyways. It can also be criticized for shoving the Pay For Death Tokens choice in your face every time you die.
So yes, I am okay with Let It Die being F2P. It's fair for the most part.
Am I okay with many other F2P games? No. Many are exploitative.
Edit: I have not completed the game. I'm on Floor 25. My opinion could change as I continue up the Tower.
Combat and character progression feels more akin to Dead Rising. The dungeon crawling could be I am okay compared to just about any other dungeon crawler in the same way it compares to Dark Souls.
As for the economics of the system, the only thing I feel is unfair about it is how the special vendor pretty much requires you buy and convert death tokens into money to buy some of his items. It seems like a fair system otherwise.
The game can be criticized for having to much grinding and farming. That isn't inherently caused by the F2P mechanics. I'd still need to farm certain floors for certain mushrooms and vermin anyways. It can also be criticized for shoving the Pay For Death Tokens choice in your face every time you die.
So yes, I am okay with Let It Die being F2P. It's fair for the most part.
Am I okay with many other F2P games? No. Many are exploitative.
Edit: I have not completed the game. I'm on Floor 25. My opinion could change as I continue up the Tower.
Are we comparing a F2P game to one that, if you bought all the content at launch, costs damn near $200 dollars? Sounds legit to me.
Let It Die has to make money somehow. Destiny just has them because fuck you, give us your money. Hour long campaigns don't make themselves, you know. People should not use Destiny as a benchmark for most things because most things about Destiny are bad.
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