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[Godot25]

Now ask yourself who announced Redfall.

The headlines do indeed write themselves.

You really want to tell me that if Microsoft cancelled Redfall, the message of cancellation of that game would not leaked and it would be "Microsoft can't manage their studios" all over again?

Please. It's GAF. We know how things works.

I know that if Starfield will be success, it will be great "despite Microsoft," but if it will be bad, it will be bad "because of Microsoft." Same as Redfall. Same as Hi-Fi Rush.

 

[Heisenberg007]

You really want to tell me that if Microsoft cancelled Redfall, the message of cancellation of that game would not leaked and it would be "Microsoft can't manage their studios" all over again?

Please. It's GAF. We know how things works.

I know that if Starfield will be success, it will be great "despite Microsoft," but if it will be bad, it will be bad "because of Microsoft." Same as Redfall. Same as Hi-Fi Rush.

Very few canceled games leak. But even if it did, I believe Arkane could put this into a positive light. That message should not have come from Microsoft/Xbox but Arkane, specifically.

It could have been something I wrote in a previous comment. I'm sure people would have praised it.

It'd have been super easy to cancel it because nobody knew what Arkane was making -- until Microsoft announced it on their stage.

Also, even if people came to know about the canceled Redfall project, Arkane could just spin it into a positive thing in like 1 message. It'd have gone something like this:

"Yes, we were working on a project named Redfall, and it was supposed to be a multiplayer co-cop vampire shooter. But the game wasn't coming along well and didn't have the "Arkane DNA" that our fans love and expect from us.

The project started because we felt a need to make a big GaaS shooter that could bring in recurring revenue. After Microsoft's purchase of Zenimax, however, that stopped being a problem for us. That's why it's so good to be a part of Xbox Game Studios, where we can pursue our creative ambitions without worrying about where our next cheque is coming from.

With Microsoft's support, we are developing [insert franchise name here: Dishonored 3, Prey 2 etc.], which will be our biggest and most ambitious single-player game yet and a true love letter to our Arkane fans. It's very early in production, but we can't wait for the time when we can show more of it."

 

[GHG]

You really want to tell me that if Microsoft cancelled Redfall, the message of cancellation of that game would not leaked and it would be "Microsoft can't manage their studios" all over again?

Please. It's GAF. We know how things works.

I know that if Starfield will be success, it will be great "despite Microsoft," but if it will be bad, it will be bad "because of Microsoft." Same as Redfall. Same as Hi-Fi Rush.

If they "cancelled" it nobody would have known other than a few unsubstantiated rumours.

You can decide whether a few random rumours or Redfall releasing in the state it did is more damaging to the brand. This isn't about GAF, it's about the overall impact on the business outside of this niche forum.

 

[Godot25]

If they "cancelled" it nobody would have known other than a few unsubstantiated rumours.

Very few canceled games leak. But even if it did, I believe Arkane could put this into a positive light. That message should not have come from Microsoft/Xbox but Arkane, specifically.

It could have been something I wrote in a previous comment. I'm sure people would have praised it.

Redfall screenshots literally leaked on the internet. So much for "few unsubstantiated rumours." And yes, there is possiblity that these screenshot would not leak if game was cancelled, but with how leaky Microsoft ship is in terms of rumours, I have no doubt that it would leak.

As I said. Redfall was unfortunately lose/lose situation. But I'm 100% certain that Microsoft/Bethesda should not charged 70$ for that game. With 30$ price-tag it would be somewhat different story.

 

[GHG]

Redfall screenshots literally leaked on the internet. So much for "few unsubstantiated rumours." And yes, there is possiblity that these screenshot would not leak if game was cancelled, but with how leaky Microsoft ship is in terms of rumours, I have no doubt that it would leak.

And so what if it leaked. What's more difficult for them to have to manage?:

- some leaks/rumours

Or

- a game that's released, goes down in history as one of the worst first party exclusives ever and has been memed to hell and back, even reaching casual gaming populous - this is what real reputational damage looks like

Meanwhile you're sat here worrying about what GAF would have discussed if it were the former and how that would effect your feelings? Let's be logical please.

 

[feynoob]

Now ask yourself who announced Redfall.

The headlines do indeed write themselves.

You announce the games that your studios are working on. It's normal thing.
I mean look at skull and bones. Was announced in 2019, and still in development hell.

 

[Godot25]

- a game that's released, goes down in history as one of the worst first party exclusives ever and has been memed to hell and back, even reaching casual gaming populous - this is what real reputational damage looks like

You are only as good as your last released game. So while I agree, that Redfall fiasco was not welcomed, if Microsoft can manage good showcase and then have Starfield and Forza (or another additional game) ready with great quality in fall, nobody would give a damn about Redfall anymore. Not that anybody cares about Redfall now outside of "core" people in gaming forums. There is so much shit to play, that people played it and moved on.

Same as people forgot about Hi-Fi Rush because of Redfall, people will forget Redfall if next first-party game is great.

Like. I have no doubts that people did not bought Series X/S consoles thanks to Redfall, but at same time I really doubt that people sold their Xbox consoles or cancelled their Game Pass because of Redfall.

 

[feynoob]

a game that's released, goes down in history as one of the worst first party exclusives ever and has been memed to hell and back, even reaching casual gaming populous - this is what real reputational damage looks like

This one, because FK Phil Spencer and because Xbox needs a big lesson on quality of their games. Hope this is a big lesson for them and not do too much hands off approach.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

This one, because FK Phil Spencer and because Xbox needs a big lesson on quality of their games. Hope this is a big lesson for them and not do too much hands off approach.

I remember when news came out with the Bethesda purchase. My reaction is that it would be a good thing if Xbox fix the issues that was happening in Bethesda. But now it seems Bethesda was left untouched for good and for bad. Bethesda needed FIXING, there was a reason they were for sale.

 

[Godot25]

I remember when news came out with the Bethesda purchase. My reaction is that it would be a good thing if Xbox fix the issues that was happening in Bethesda. But now it seems Bethesda was left untouched for good and for bad. Bethesda needed FIXING, there was a reason they were for sale.

Reason why they were on sale was because their strategy of making SP only games was not working and outside of Fallout and maybe Doom they were not selling that great, so they pivoted towards GaaS games, but their studios were not suited for GaaS games.
Like really. Doom game were quality, The Evil Within was great, Prey was Goat, Dishonored was awesome, Wolfenstein games were great. Rage 2 was okayish. But for whatever reason those games did not sell well.

So it's not like Bethesda needs fixing. They just need to be steered back to make games they used to make in first half of last generation.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Reason why they were on sale was because their strategy of making SP only games was not working and outside of Fallout and maybe Doom they were not selling that great, so they pivoted towards GaaS games, but their studios were not suited for GaaS games.
Like really. Doom game were quality, The Evil Within was great, Prey was Goat, Dishonored was awesome, Wolfenstein games were great. Rage 2 was okayish. But for whatever reason those games did not sell well.

So it's not like Bethesda needs fixing. They just need to be steered back to make games they used to make in first half of last generation.

Well yeah, the point is that Xbox left the steering wheel untouched when they bought it. The studio is left drifting on its own, by your analogy.

If only someone spoke up about how "this game is shit and we should cancel it" to the new boss. But it seems Spenser thinks it was okay to release by his own admission.

 

[Thirty7ven]

This one, because FK Phil Spencer and because Xbox needs a big lesson on quality of their games. Hope this is a big lesson for them and not do too much hands off approach.

Only reason why they have adopted an hands off approach is because their hands on approach failed.

Also what’s the point of being hands on if you don’t have the people that can tell quality from otherwise?

We gotta go back to Halo Infinite’s reveal, where Xbox’s management thought they had a winner and were surprised by the reaction. Now it happens again with Redfall’s launch.

The excuses keep on pilling up with Xbox.

 

[Godot25]

Well yeah, the point is that Xbox left the steering wheel untouched when they bought it. The studio is left drifting on its own, by your analogy.

Yeah. But hopefully, Microsoft can now use Redfall's failure as a reason to interfere more. Or at least to have a tough talk with people that were pretending that development of that game is just fine for several years.

 

[feynoob]

Only reason why they have adopted an hands off approach is because their hands on approach failed.

Also what’s the point of being hands on if you don’t have the people that can tell quality from otherwise?

We gotta go back to Halo Infinite’s reveal, where Xbox’s management thought they had a winner and were surprised by the reaction. Now it happens again with Redfall’s launch.

The excuses keep on pilling up with Xbox.

It's not an excuse. They are in a position where they can't extert power, considering their pitiful position.
Then there is Phil Spencer who for some reason can't get fired.
I wonder what he has on MS that they can't fire him.

 

[Godot25]

It's not an excuse. They are in a position where they can't extert power, considering their pitiful position.
Then there is Phil Spencer who for some reason can't get fired.
I wonder what he has on MS that they can't fire him.

Ehhh. It's not that hard

 

[Heisenberg007]

It's not an excuse. They are in a position where they can't extert power, considering their pitiful position.
Then there is Phil Spencer who for some reason can't get fired.
I wonder what he has on MS that they can't fire him.

Bill Gates' private BDSM videos.

 

[Topher]

You really want to tell me that if Microsoft cancelled Redfall, the message of cancellation of that game would not leaked and it would be "Microsoft can't manage their studios" all over again?

Please. It's GAF. We know how things works.

I know that if Starfield will be success, it will be great "despite Microsoft," but if it will be bad, it will be bad "because of Microsoft." Same as Redfall. Same as Hi-Fi Rush.

That's really easy to say when you generalize the whole of GAF into one voice. In reality, it doesn't work that way at all.

So when does Microsoft get credit/blame to you when it comes to Redfall and Hi Fi Rush?

 

[feynoob]

Ehhh. It's not that hard

I can do better.
All I need is 50b, and I will be to generate 20b a year.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Yeah, that happens. It sucks, but it happens.

Returnal was one such game I feel. Although it was a success for Sony, it sold ~1 million copies, while it should have sold 10+ million considering the masterpiece it is.

Sometimes, good games do not sell, and that leads to awful situations for studios. I feel for them.

Housemarque is one of my favorite developers, but I don’t think any of their games have been multi-million sellers.

As masters of shooters they’ve proven they can deliver amazing games on a small budget. Even with Returnal not selling as well as we’d like, they’ll be fine.

 

[Godot25]

That's really easy to say when you generalize the whole of GAF into one voice. In reality, it doesn't work that way at all.

So when does Microsoft get credit/blame to you when it comes to Redfall and Hi Fi Rush?

I think that Microsoft should have been praised/criticised the moment they released first game when Bethesda was under Microsoft.
But people always find a way to twist it to their needs
"Deathloop was in development way before merger and is only for PlayStation (like that matters for quality for a game)"
"Hi-Fi Rush was in development way before merger"
"Redfall (which was in development way before merger) is Microsoft's fault"

I prefer consistency. Everything from Bethesda after merger (ie. Deathloop, GhostWire, Starfield, Hi-Fi Rush, Redfall) should be attributed to Microsoft. With good and bad. Not flip-flopping around.

 

[Topher]

I think that Microsoft should have been praised/criticised the moment they released first game when Bethesda was under Microsoft.
But people always find a way to twist it to their needs
"Deathloop was in development way before merger"
"Hi-Fi Rush was in development way before merger"
"Redfall (which was in development way before merger) is Microsoft's fault"

I prefer consistency. Everything from Bethesda after merger (ie. Deathloop, GhostWire, Starfield, Hi-Fi Rush, Redfall) should be attributed to Microsoft. With good and bad. Not flip-flopping around.

I agree with your consistency, but not your generalizations. Anyone can quote multiple distinctly different people saying contradictory things and say "GAF said".

 

[Godot25]

I agree with your consistency, but not your generalizations. Anyone can quote multiple distinctly different people saying contradictory things and say "GAF said".

While it's not as bad as IconEra, we all know where GAF leans in terms of gaming preferences. Let's not pretend otherwise. If I had to quote every single individual that said something along the lines "Microsoft should not be praised for Deathloop/Hi-Fi Rush" we would be here all day.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

I’m bored of publishers always getting it in the neck.

Arkane shit the bed. This is on them. MS will get the criticism, but this is on Arkane. They’ve gone full hipster. Need to work on their gunplay and core mechanics.

It's 70 people trying to make a Division style game. With plans for steady content drop. Very overambitious.

It was expected they were making small Farcry 2 style game with some Borderlands style looter shooter mechanics thrown in. That would have been appropriate for team size.

 

[Topher]

While it's not as bad as IconEra, we all know where GAF leans in terms of gaming preferences. Let's not pretend otherwise. If I had to quote every single individual that said something along the lines "Microsoft should not be praised for Deathloop/Hi-Fi Rush" we would be here all day.

So what? Xbox fans are in the minority worldwide. That's the case in most forums as well. Either way, that doesn't make your generalizations any more valid. The fact that it is difficult to actually reference individuals making these contradictory statements is exactly my point. "GAF said" is a bullshit argument.

 

[Gambit2483]

They can only make what they can with the resources they have. Everything about RedFall screams that the basic elements of a good game are present. It's just that everything about them are very unpolished and rushed.

Cars exploding the exact same way no matter where you shoot them. Cars catching on fire after being shot in the tire. Cars burning on fire while sitting in an obvious pool of water. Enemy AI being braindead and nonexistent. Rough unfinished animations. Shadow pop-in. Characters with disproportionately sized hands. Horrendous texture & LOD pop-in.

All of those are things either more time, money, manpower or a combination of the three would have resolved. Arkane Austin themselves are a talented studio if you look at their history. But they were pushed on a totally new model of game they had no prior experience with, and no amount of support higher-up to guide them or direct them to do it right. Of course RedFall was going to turn out a disaster under those conditions.

But that's both on Zenimax's previous owners, and their owner, Microsoft. The latter for being way too hands-off and not knowing when the pull the plug, just so they could have more content for Game Pass.

Red flags should have gone off after they began to bleed talent. Someone in management pushed them to make this a GAAS and when talent pushed back (and left) they should have gotten the hint...but by then it was far too late. This could have been a great single/co-op Vampire immersive Sim IF some stupid greedy fucking suits didn't try to force the team to make a scummy monetization model into their game.

I hope every single one of these GAAS games crashes and burns so game development can go back to "how to make fun/innovative game ideas" instead of "how to make the most money"

 

[F0rneus]

Kinda sad, and it sucks (pun intended) that the game got that ravaged. I played it. It's OK. It's obviously not great but it's not unplayable garbage. It's a silly, lil unfinished game with a lot of good ideas that....never work as intended.

Fuck you Hollow Man!

 

[Banjo64]

You really want to tell me that if Microsoft cancelled Redfall, the message of cancellation of that game would not leaked and it would be "Microsoft can't manage their studios" all over again?

Please. It's GAF. We know how things works.

I know that if Starfield will be success, it will be great "despite Microsoft," but if it will be bad, it will be bad "because of Microsoft." Same as Redfall. Same as Hi-Fi Rush.

It is in the delivery.

This was Microsoft’s statement when they cancelled Scalebound:

After careful deliberation, Microsoft Studios has come to the decision to end production for "Scalebound." We're working hard to deliver an amazing lineup of games to our fans this year, including "Halo Wars 2," "Crackdown 3," "State of Decay 2," "Sea of Thieves" and other great experiences. For more information on our 2017 plans, please visit: https://news.xbox.com/2017/01/05/xbox-closes-milestone-year-in-2016.

That was it. No clarity for the fans.

I know it is difficult to throw a partner under the bus, but they really should have approached it in the same way that Nintendo did with Prime 4.

Although this is very regrettable we must let you know that the current development progress has not reached the standards we seek in a sequel to Metroid Prime series, Takahashi said. Nintendo always strives for the highest quality in our games and in our development phase, we challenge ourselves and confront whether the game is living up to that quality on a daily basis. From this perspective, we have determined that the current development status of [Metroid Prime 4] is very challenged, and we had to make a difficult decision as a development team. We have decided to re-examine the development structure and change it.

For Redfall, there was no external partner to throw under the bus. Just their own studio, who to be honest, deserve to be scapegoated for this mess.

No one is going to attack Xbox for striving for quality above all else.

That is just not a true narrative.