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Arsetechnica weighs in on the bluray being optional for ps3

Rhindle

Member
Jun 8, 2004
5,299
1
0
My view, since Day 1, is that both Microsoft and Sony should have used a detachable DVD drive similar to those found in most laptops. That would have barely added to the cost of the consoles, and would have allowed users to upgrade their drives to HD/BRD at their leisure, whenever they personally felt the pricing was right.

But that would be much too sensible I guess.
 

FredFish

Member
May 6, 2006
633
0
0
drohne said:
suppose one of the birds is a magpie -- magpies love shiny things. suppose the magpie takes the diamond and flies away with it. did sony consider that possibility? thanks a lot, sony!
:lol :lol :lol
 

typhonsentra

Banned
May 24, 2005
8,465
0
0
Rhindle said:
My view, since Day 1, is that both Microsoft and Sony should have used a detachable DVD drive similar to those found in most laptops. That would have barely added to the cost of the consoles, and would have allowed users to upgrade their drives to HD/BRD at their leisure, whenever they personally felt the pricing was right.

But that would be much too sensible I guess.
I totally agree.

 

AdmiralViscen

Banned
Oct 20, 2005
12,060
0
0
BlueTsunami said:
I think its wrong (at this point in time) to make definitive statements for and against Blu-Ray when it comes to anything gameing related (and if it will benefit them)

I'm sure if we were in the same situation but with CD transitioning to DVDs (think PSX -> PS2) that people would be argueing that CD is A-OK and there was no need for DVD.
I agree with the first part.

I disagree with the second part. I think people saw a reason for DVD back then. But I didn't get involved with message baord arguments at the time, so maybe I'm wrong.
 

AdmiralViscen

Banned
Oct 20, 2005
12,060
0
0
Suikoguy said:
If only it wasn't so damn expensive..

I mean that extra 100 dollars is killer!
Getting off the couch to switch a disc once every 10-20 hours (on some games) is killer!

Rhindle said:
Yes, that looks exactly like a detachable laptop DVD drive. You got me there, champ.
So the detachable BR/HD drives that you are proposing would not play any games? Movies only?

And don't you see how your plan totally fails to accomplish Sony's goals with Blu Ray and PS3?
 

firefoxsux

Banned
Nov 15, 2005
523
0
0
The PS3, first and foremost, is a gaming machine. Had Blu-ray launched a year ago, momentum could be quite strong, and manufacturing costs could be significantly lower than they are now. In such a scenario, it may have been easier to add Blu-ray to the PS3 without affecting the cost in a dramatic fashion. In fact, this may have been what Sony was hoping for all along. But between the PS3 delays, the AACS delays, and the general pace of the HD optical formats (as compared to their original projected timelines), this party is late getting started, and some are even starting to predict failure for HD optical, at least in the next couple of years.
This is my same feelings i explain some days ago. :D

PS3 should be cheaper.

The value you see now as cheap BR console is because of greed of BDA and DVDForums. Fuck them. I feel disgust with buying their greed and unlucky Plan B. Wait for price to drop is the smart thing.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Jun 6, 2004
20,904
1
0
AdmiralViscen said:
Getting off the couch to switch a disc once every 10-20 hours (on some games) is killer!



So the detachable BR/HD drives that you are proposing would not play any games? Movies only?

And don't you see how your plan totally fails to accomplish Sony's goals with Blu Ray and PS3?
Way to ignore all other benefits of a larger medium!
Also, way to split the userbase with a detachable drive!

Furthermore, did anybody else notice the thread title change, or was it always that way :lol
 

AdmiralViscen

Banned
Oct 20, 2005
12,060
0
0
Suikoguy said:
Way to ignore all other benefits of a larger medium!
Also, way to split the userbase with a detachable drive!

Furthermore, did anybody else notice the thread title change, or was it always that way :lol
Um where the hell does it look like I'm in favor of a detachable drive?
 

BlueTsunami

there is joy in sucking dick
Oct 10, 2005
40,629
1
0
35
www.flickr.com
DarknessTear said:
Hate to crash the party but S-E said they need blue ray for FFXIII.
Your about to be raped by the collective Anti Blu-Ray group. The argument that CG is old hat and shouldn't be used at all. I say a developer should be free to do what they want. Lets see what they say.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Jun 7, 2004
85,523
3
0
DarknessTear said:
Hate to crash the party but S-E said they need blue ray for FFXIII.
But its for CG! Although we should ignore that Epic, Rockstar, UBI, Starbreeze ect have said that its needed also.
 

typhonsentra

Banned
May 24, 2005
8,465
0
0
Rhindle said:
Yes, that looks exactly like a detachable laptop DVD drive. You got me there, champ.
I know how all those casual gamers love those hardware installs! Not to mention how making two versions of a game won't be needlessly expensive and confusing!
 

Lagaff

Gub'mint Researcher
Apr 27, 2006
545
0
0
sorry i cant make a thread so here my post(if someone can make a thread on it feel free)

What dev Think about bluray:

Squaresoft

Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor.
http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html
Ubisoft

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.


"The Darkness" developer:

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554



Team Ninja

"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It's ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for it… However, don't be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."


http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/itagaki-sounds-off-on-xbox-360-
limitations/

"The developer of "Enchant Arms,"



"The developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that's even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/commentary/game_over/column_gamin
g/index.htm

Vivendi Universal

"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity, performance and high-speed internet connectivity to take us into the future of gaming."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

EA

"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

F1 06 developpers


Quote:
Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?

A: We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it’s limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That’s a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It’s awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible ”box” that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box – you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.

http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/apanel/view_articles.php?id=130&pa
ge=4


Ninja theory

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me

Quote:Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja

Sorry Arfi - let's see if we can't get you a decent answer....

"Yes!"

There you go

Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony's presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we'll definitely be needing the space that's available on the BD!
http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111&page=3

Mar Rein:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=125925

Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances.Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible. What online could be, is the back-channel to get additional content. Patches and things like that. I think what Valve has done is great. It'll be interesting to see where marketing fits in. Now they're going with EA in the future, the biggest publisher of all. You can't do one without the other, otherwise no-one knows about your game. Unless you have the huge marketing budgets that major retailers have when launching your game, so I think there's still a very important role for retailers.

For even more ownage here is an article about blu ray movies that already require and use 50gb discs

http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801
 

Rhindle

Member
Jun 8, 2004
5,299
1
0
AdmiralViscen said:
And don't you see how your plan totally fails to accomplish Sony's goals with Blu Ray and PS3?
I realize what Sony's goal is, and it would have been totally sensible if they had been able to launch at a reaonable price point. But now they're jeopardizing their only consistently profitable business to score points in the BR/HD war.

Offering PS3 users a cheap way to upgrade once the technology becomes reasonably affordable would still have given them a leg up, without placing their console business at risk.
 

AdmiralViscen

Banned
Oct 20, 2005
12,060
0
0
Rhindle said:
I realize what Sony's goal is, and it would have been totally sensible if they had been able to launch at a reaonable price point. But now they're jeopardizing their only consistently profitable business to score points in the BR/HD war.

Offering PS3 users a cheap way to upgrade once the technology becomes reasonably affordable would still have given them a leg up, without placing their console business at risk.
If you expect games to be put on Blu Ray, than it sure as shit does put their console business at risk.

It'd also be pointless. Waiting two years for BRD to come to PS3, and making it an add-on, would not do what they want PS3 to do for Blu ray. It'd be fucking pointless. Or crippling, if it does more than play movies.
 

Rhindle

Member
Jun 8, 2004
5,299
1
0
typhonsentra said:
I know how all those casual gamers love those hardware installs! Not to mention how making two versions of a game won't be needlessly expensive and confusing!
It takes about three seconds to swap drives in my laptop bay.

Keep trying though!
 

Shogmaster

Member
Jun 11, 2004
16,437
1
0
davepoobond said:
if there's no space to grow how are we to know if its going to be used or not? obviously the 360's doesn't offer the capacity to grow (reduced to less than a full dvd) and then you have to go multi-disc. but that's not the point of higher-capacity optical media.

Why don't DVDs just come encoded with 1080p movies but have the movie split up between 4 discs?
480i, 480p, 720p, 1080p, 2160p, 4320p... the resolution is irrelevent to how much room it will eat up on whatever the media. It's really about the bitrate of the video.

For instance, you can easily have a 2 hours of 1080p video fit on a DVD9 if it's 10 megabits per second or less average. And VC-1 or H.264 @ 10mb/s looks pretty damn impressive @ 1080p (Just to compare, initial BR titles from Sony will be using around 16mb/s MPEG2 streams @ 1080p. And as many of you already know, VC-1, H.264 and other high end MPEG4 codecs will give you about 3 times the image quality for the same bitrate vs MPEG2).
 

Rhindle

Member
Jun 8, 2004
5,299
1
0
AdmiralViscen said:
If you expect games to be put on Blu Ray, than it sure as shit does put their console business at risk.

It'd also be pointless. Waiting two years for BRD to come to PS3, and making it an add-on, would not do what they want PS3 to do for Blu ray. It'd be fucking pointless. Or crippling, if it does more than play movies.
How would it be "pointless." If a user had a choice of buying a PS3 drive upgrade at a fraction of the price of a stand-alone HD-DVD play, why would that not give them a leg up.

And I'm not suggesting that games be released in two formats. That die was cast the moment the first 360 was released.
 

typhonsentra

Banned
May 24, 2005
8,465
0
0
Rhindle said:
It takes about three seconds to swap drives in my laptop bay.

Keep trying though!
Ever see a parent try to buy a game for their kid and get confused on the difference between PS2 and Xbox games and which works in which? Imagine the confusion what you're suggesting would cause.
 

MassiveAttack

Banned
Jun 22, 2004
8,033
0
0
Sorry to be so starkly contrarian, but I'd like to see MORE CG and therefore, look forward to the 50GB capacity of Blu-ray.

The work done by studios such as Links Digiworks, Digital Frontier, ROBOT, Omnibus, Blur, Square Visual Works, and others was phenomenal this gen and I'd like to see more from these guys. With additional storage and constant advancements in lighting and rendering techniques that are far beyond the reach of realtime engines, why would anyone NOT want to see these studios continue to push even further?

There's no doubt that Onimusha 3's opening CG could be done in realtime next gen, but to imply that there's nothing that can be achieved far beyond this visual benchmark is denying progress in general.
 

DarknessTear

Banned
Sep 5, 2005
10,532
0
1,230
34
Ohio
Lagaff said:
sorry i cant make a thread so here my post(if someone can make a thread on it feel free)

What dev Think about bluray:

Squaresoft

Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor.
http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html
Ubisoft

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.


"The Darkness" developer:

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554



Team Ninja

"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It's ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for it… However, don't be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."


http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/itagaki-sounds-off-on-xbox-360-
limitations/

"The developer of "Enchant Arms,"



"The developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that's even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/commentary/game_over/column_gamin
g/index.htm

Vivendi Universal

"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity, performance and high-speed internet connectivity to take us into the future of gaming."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

EA

"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

F1 06 developpers


Quote:
Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?

A: We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it’s limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That’s a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It’s awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible ”box” that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box – you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.

http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/apanel/view_articles.php?id=130&pa
ge=4


Ninja theory

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me

Quote:Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja

Sorry Arfi - let's see if we can't get you a decent answer....

"Yes!"

There you go

Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony's presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we'll definitely be needing the space that's available on the BD!
http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111&page=3

Mar Rein:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=125925

Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances.Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible. What online could be, is the back-channel to get additional content. Patches and things like that. I think what Valve has done is great. It'll be interesting to see where marketing fits in. Now they're going with EA in the future, the biggest publisher of all. You can't do one without the other, otherwise no-one knows about your game. Unless you have the huge marketing budgets that major retailers have when launching your game, so I think there's still a very important role for retailers.

For even more ownage here is an article about blu ray movies that already require and use 50gb discs

http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801

Best Junior Member ever.
 

Speevy

Banned
Jun 26, 2004
62,861
1
0
More than one DVD is certainly not "fun", but if it has to happen. that's fine. I think people will be more open to that as long as the content is divided in a way that makes sense. In other words, you shouldn't have to switch discs for multiplayer in a football game (like with the Gamecube), and you don't have to. On the other hand, switching in the middle of an adventure is perfectly acceptable. Sure under 10 GB isn't enough for every game, but show me a developer that needs 50 GB for any game we've seen shown so far for the PS3, and I'll show you a lazy developer. I'd much rather see two disc games than overly compressed crap. In a way it's the same thing as with the Cube, and in others it's different.. 3 360 DVDs is roughly equal to what you'll see on the smallest Blu-Ray disk (usable capacity). Then 5 DVDs is as much as some insane Square-Enix that'll only come along twice in the whole generation. The fact remains that we haven't seen any high resolution textures, huge number of polygons, lighting, effects, shaders, whatever send a game into the 50 GB stratusphere yet. People may not like this fact who are a fan of Blu-Ray, but it really is the anomaly until it becomes the standard. People will see the PS3 and think "Wow it's cool that we can fit everything on one disc." rather than "Hey, why isn't all media like this?" because they'll recognize DVD as something they're stilll using, and still buying. It won't be until the end of the generation when MS can't really compete feasibly with a console of Sony's developer support, and then they'll adopt HD-DVD should they decide to go forward with another Xbox, or if HD-DVD is still a viable option. In any case, you'll still see hundreds of cross-platform games, and companies will develop better (and worse) ways of dealing with the limitation. As long as certain games and certain genres are still marketable to the Xbox 360 consumer, they'll figure out the disc issue. Double-disc games afterall weren't what killed the Gamecube. It was a lack of interest in third party software, a problem which definitely doesn't affect the Xbox 360.
 

Rhindle

Member
Jun 8, 2004
5,299
1
0
MassiveAttack said:
Sorry to be so starkly contrarian, but I'd like to see MORE CG and therefore, look forward to the 50GB capacity of Blu-ray.

The work done by studios such as Links Digiworks, Digital Frontier, ROBOT, Omnibus, Blur, Square Visual Works, and others was phenomenal this gen and I'd like to see more from these guys. With additional storage and constant advancements in lighting and rendering techniques that are far beyond the reach of realtime engines, why would anyone NOT want to see these studios continue to push even further?

There's no doubt that Onimusha 3's opening CG could be done in realtime next gen, but to imply that there's nothing that can be achieved far beyond this visual benchmark is denying progress in general.
HIgh-quality HD CGI costs upwards of $500,000/minute to produce. That's a $15,000,000 budget for 30 minutes of CGI in a game.

I don't see many games outside of Final Fantasy going that route.
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
Jun 6, 2004
16,737
20
0
MassiveAttack said:
There's no doubt that Onimusha 3's opening CG could be done in realtime next gen, but to imply that there's nothing that can be achieved far beyond this visual benchmark is denying progress in general.
i'm...gonna go ahead and doubt that onimusha 3's opening movie could be done in realtime. but hell yeah, i'd love to see work of that caliber and beyond in high-bitrate hd goodness. i like realtime cutscenes for their consistency with the rest of the game, but...prerendered cg is pretty!
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Jun 7, 2004
85,523
3
0
Y2Kevbug11 said:
Someone do archive that post for posterity.
Yep its the best argument for BR and games. It shows that its not just Sony that's hyping it, there's many major 3rd parties doing it. And to throw another quote in there

Dan Houser (Rockstar)

The danger is currently the storage medium (DVD), and one we thing we’re all praying for in the next round of hardware is that they don’t just go, ‘It’s DVD again’.
 

Shogmaster

Member
Jun 11, 2004
16,437
1
0
You know, if as a gaming community we decided as a whole to adopt BR with open arms to "look forward" and invest into "the future", then what will happen when 2010/2011 rolls around? In that very next generation, we will be looking at consoles with 4GB of RAM if the current trend continues. With that amount of RAM, all of the sudden 50GBs of DL BR is not all that incredible, and really, starts looking resticting as DVD9 is for 512MB of RAM.

If we are truly investing into the future, we should not be investing into temporary replacement of DVD such as BR and HD-DVD that only buys us enough space for this transitional generation, for a single console (PS3). We should be looking into something that gives us order of magnitude increase in storage over DVD9 that would give us enough space for couple of generations. I'm talking 50GB SINGLE LAYER minimum.
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
Jun 6, 2004
16,737
20
0
yeah, i'm with shog in supporting this imaginary next-next-gen format. and the best way to support true progress is to resist all progress.
 

Logan Cano

Banned
Dec 9, 2005
1,321
0
0
If the space is there, developers will use it. That´s the thing with Blu Ray, when you deal with only 7.5 GBs, you design according to that restriction. If you have more storage, developers will be able to use it in different ways.

Oh, and BTW, isn´t HVD vaporware more than anything?? I remember it having serious issues due to corruption of data, can´t remember much else right now.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
1,470
1,232
1,555
Well both Nintendo and MSFT are using DVDs this generation so I guess they are both doomed and SONY will be the only console that makes it to the end of this generation regardless of price. Why are MSFT and Nintendo even trying? This next generation belongs to SONY.

The Dark One
 

Ristamar

Member
Jun 10, 2004
6,091
0
0
I thought a lot of developers/publishers were complaining game development already cost way too much? I assume these can't be the same people clamoring for more space to cram even more shit on to a disk (and after it hits bargain bin prices, they can lose even more money).

But seriously, is there some sort of financially driven rift forming in the development community? Is the inflated game development cost argument overblown? Is it just a case of developers relishing the high-powered tools they can play with, but the publishers (or whoever fronts the bill) becoming wary of the rising costs of that goes along with the new technology?
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
Jun 6, 2004
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is anyone even talking about hvd as removable disk media? i thought it was being prototyped as a replacement for magnetic hard disks.

look: bring on hvd or whatever for next-next-gen. but blu ray happens to be an excellent movie format, and it answers to the demands of games now. if you listen to phil harrison -- and there are excellent reasons not to -- next-next-gen will be all about digital distribution anyway.
 

Speevy

Banned
Jun 26, 2004
62,861
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The truth is that we've discussed this to death. We should let a year pass and see where we are in 07 as the biggest next gen. games start getting releases. I know Metal Gear Solid 4 will probably need a bunch of space, as will FFXIII. I haven't seen any compelling evidence that Motorstorm, Warhawk, Genji 2, or even Heavenly Sword (cinematics aside) need a ton of space. But the wise thing to do would be to see how developers handle it. The very first simultaneous 360 and PS3 release will be a great test, as will the first 360 game that has two DVDs.
 

Parch

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Oct 17, 2005
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Wow. Great work there Lagaff.
I figured the capacity of blu-ray would eventually have an impact, but now it seems that more and more devs will be taking advantage of it a lot sooner than I expected.
 

Flo_Evans

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Feb 3, 2005
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the only new info I got from this thread is that diamonds are a waste of money!

actually I already knew that! THREAD WASTE TOTAL!
 

Speevy

Banned
Jun 26, 2004
62,861
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DarkMage619 said:
Well both Nintendo and MSFT are using DVDs this generation so I guess they are both doomed and SONY will be the only console that makes it to the end of this generation regardless of price. Why are MSFT and Nintendo even trying? This next generation belongs to SONY.

The Dark One

That's the other thing I meant.

From now until almost the end of the decade, the majority of the games you're going to see are going to be on DVD or a lesser format. Wii, 360, PS2, PSP, DS, then BLU RAY It'll take people time to get used to it, but I don't see consumers looking down on the lesser stuff for a while. Supposedly, Nintendo's reasons for its format are no HD graphics + the capabilities of the system. But I find it hard to believe that MS could eliminate half its problems by having the games developed for standard definition TVs.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
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Speevy said:
That's the other thing I meant.

From now until almost the end of the decade, the majority of the games you're going to see are going to be on DVD or a lesser format. Wii, 360, PS2, PSP, DS, then BLU RAY It'll take people time to get used to it, but I don't see consumers looking down on the lesser stuff for a while. Supposedly, Nintendo's reasons for its format are no HD graphics + the capabilities of the system. But I find it hard to believe that MS could eliminate half its problems by having the games developed for standard definition TVs.
MSFT could... I don't know... maybe use multi discs for games that end up being too large for a single DVD. There was a time where having multi-CDs was cool. I suppose those days are over.

I, for one, look forward to seeing the first title that would be larger than a single DVD and have no prerendered CG on it. That would be quite interesting indeed. Especially if it's multiplatform.

The Dark One
 

Shogmaster

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Jun 11, 2004
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drohne said:
is anyone even talking about hvd as removable disk media? i thought it was being prototyped as a replacement for magnetic hard disks.
HVD is an optical media, just like BR and HD-DVD.

look: bring on hvd or whatever for next-next-gen. but blu ray happens to be an excellent movie format, and it answers to the demands of games now.
By that token, HD-DVD is an excellent movie format, and it would be just as excellent as BR as a game format. But all the focus is on the BR. WHY? Because everyone is buying into the Sony hype that BR is the only format that can take us into the future.

As a movie format, HD-DVD gives you 60% of the capacity for half the cost of BR. When 10mb/s bitrate gives you excellent 1080p results, HD-DVD is more than enough for 720p and 1080p HDTVs of the next 5 to 7 years. Even at a luxurious 20mb/s of VC-1 or H.264 streams, 30GB will give you over 3.3 hours of footage.

As a game format, no reason in hell why every damn game has to fit on a single disc. If a game needs to go on a single BR DL disc and I manage to finish it before I take a bathroom break (i.e. getting out of my seat), then it's going straight into the skull of one of the devs.

if you listen to phil harrison -- and there are excellent reasons not to -- next-next-gen will be all about digital distribution anyway.
As much as I love digital distribution (I'm living it everyday with Live!), when consoles have 4GB of RAM, do you really think downloading via 6mb/s broadband connections will be a viable distribution method for even a level demo download for majority of the consumers? Digital distribution is AT MINIMUM a good decade away as the main distribution method for us.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
May 14, 2006
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Heian-kyo said:
Meh, I still think the argument is ridiculous and shortsighted. For one, Ars fails to mention that 360 DVD's have a capacity of ~7GB, not the full 8.4GB; a sizable difference. Secondly, by the articles own admission, in a four year period game sizes increased by 77% in the last gen. Oblivion, a game released only 5 months after the system's launch, is just over 6GB. By 2008, using that same growth percentage, a game like Oblivion would be about 8.5GB in size, requiring two DVD's on the 360. And that's only 2 years from now.

Oops, has someone been looking at the one eyed matey sites to guess the size of Oblivion? Just for your info, Oblivion is NOT 6GB, but a pat on the back for trying. If you want a hint, you could fit almost HALF of Oblivion on the SAME disc it is currently on.
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
Jun 6, 2004
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i have no special preference for blu ray over hd-dvd -- it has a slight technical superiority, and it happens to be the one that'll come with my ps3. i'll shed no tears if hd-dvd wins out. i'd much rather see hd-dvd win than see both formats die.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Jun 8, 2004
21,854
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Shogmaster said:
But all the focus is on the BR. WHY?
Because BD is the only higher-than-DVD capacity optical media format being brought to a game platform for use in games in the forseeable future. Go figure.
 

Shogmaster

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kaching said:
Because BD is the only higher-than-DVD capacity optical media format being brought to a game platform for use in games in the forseeable future. Go figure.
I wasn't even thinking about gaming in that regards. I was just thinking in regards to the movie format wars. Until MS stepped in for HD-DVD a year ago, HD-DVD was all but dead. All the focus was on BR as the successor to DVD.

BTW, as many of you already know, I believe BR and HD-DVD is the successor to the LD, not DVD. HVD or something else with such capacity is the true successor to the DVD.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
Feb 21, 2006
21,538
1
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Tortondo, Canada
Lagaff said:
sorry i cant make a thread so here my post(if someone can make a thread on it feel free)

What dev Think about bluray:

Squaresoft

Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor.
http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html
Ubisoft

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.


"The Darkness" developer:

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554



Team Ninja

"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It's ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for it… However, don't be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."


http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/itagaki-sounds-off-on-xbox-360-
limitations/

"The developer of "Enchant Arms,"



"The developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that's even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/commentary/game_over/column_gamin
g/index.htm

Vivendi Universal

"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity, performance and high-speed internet connectivity to take us into the future of gaming."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

EA

"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

F1 06 developpers


Quote:
Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?

A: We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it’s limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That’s a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It’s awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible ”box” that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box – you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.

http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/apanel/view_articles.php?id=130&pa
ge=4


Ninja theory

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me

Quote:Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja

Sorry Arfi - let's see if we can't get you a decent answer....

"Yes!"

There you go

Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony's presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we'll definitely be needing the space that's available on the BD!
http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111&page=3

Mar Rein:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=125925

Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances.Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible. What online could be, is the back-channel to get additional content. Patches and things like that. I think what Valve has done is great. It'll be interesting to see where marketing fits in. Now they're going with EA in the future, the biggest publisher of all. You can't do one without the other, otherwise no-one knows about your game. Unless you have the huge marketing budgets that major retailers have when launching your game, so I think there's still a very important role for retailers.

For even more ownage here is an article about blu ray movies that already require and use 50gb discs

http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801
I give you a big thumbs-up.
 

Speevy

Banned
Jun 26, 2004
62,861
1
0
MS could develop all future 360s with the HD-DVD drive, and give all current owners a free one at their local retailer (for a short period of time).

The N64 couldn't play DK64 without an add-on. I think the damage could be contained if they replaced a SKU instead of adding one.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Jun 8, 2004
21,854
2
0
Shogmaster said:
I wasn't even thinking about gaming in that regards.
I know, you guys like to downplay that angle as much as possible. But it is a significant part of why BD is being pushed.
 
Mar 4, 2006
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Having to change discs halfway through a linear game is going to be such a negative for the 360, I hope reviewers mark any multi-disc games down by at LEAST 3 points! :lol
 
Jun 7, 2004
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NM USA
So, how do things look if PS3 is the only game playing device using Blu-Ray as its standard?

Maybe about a quarter of PC games come on a single DVD with majority still being on anywhere from one to six CDs. Of course, many assets in PC games are decompressed onto the hard drive as part of the installation, but I've not seen one that exceeds 6 gig uncompressed out of initial install and the most newer games are about 2 gigs total without needing to stream audio or video from the optical disc. (I think we could probably eliminate a considerable amount of lower-target spec assets from many games for use in console releases.)

Wii games are on DVD.

X360 games are on DVD.

My assumption is that the PS3 will have a relatively small userbase over the next year and a half because its high cost, and that higher pricing will be one of the main reasons its growth is slower than that of its competitors in the new generation. In this scenario, how would the PS3 affect everything else on the market considering that it has the smallest userbase with a high likelihood of a lower attach rate resulting in generally lower software sales? If we see lower software sales and couple it with the increased costs of developing the games themselves now, what does this mean for creating a lot of unique content to fill out well past a DVD 9's capacity if the only platform capable of storing as much as standard is the PS3? How does the likelihood of PS3 representing the minority in software unit sales among multiplatform releases justify the expenditure of creating more content for just that platform? Granted, the lower software sales and smaller userbase is likely to mean less as time wears on and the userbase grows... Exclusive titles will certainly use that space while most games will use the extra space for more flexibly accessed redundant data more than anything else.

On the X360 front, I think one of the ways MS will combat the larger size of games will be to loosen up on its stance about the requirement of games to be usable without the HDD present. The game could simply decompress to the hard drive heavily packed data that otherwise might not be able to fit onto disc in streaming friendly shape. Since better than 80% of the X360s out there are the Premium pack and one can always go out and purchase the HDD for the system if they own a Core system, I think this will be the case.

I think that the issue of Blu-Ray media being used in only one platform of four (the others being the PC, X360 and Wii) as standard is an important and overlooked one. Since the vast majority of publishers target across many platforms with the vast majority of games, I think that the issues of space are put in a more correct context.

In the end, most games simply won't be affected and will have the user swap to another disc...as the vast majority of games are linear in design. Sandbox games could be affected, as we've seen some vague information concerning space on a DVD 9 in the Mercs sequel, but sandbox-style games are also a smaller genre and many use intellingent design to reduce the need for more raw data through procedural work and instancing, a la Oblivion. Hub and node like-designed worlds may be affected, but, like anything so far, it's up in the air.